On July 29 2012 17:18 KuKri wrote: Of course algebra is necessary, who would ever become a scientist in the physics, mathematics, chemisty etc. department if they have never learned algebra? I guess very few people would still try to study one of these subjects as the knowledge/skill gap from school to university would become way too large overcome it. Or Universities would have to begin their lessons with "A function is ..." Who would ever want future generations of engineers to learn that instead of the usual Technical Mechanics or something like that where they need algebra?
No one is saying scrap mathematics. People who are inclined towards physics and mathematics would still be able to do it. But why would a social worker, a radio host or a fitness coach need to know algebra?
And they still need to redefined a function in university anyway, because the high school definition isn't abstract enough. For example, in high school (at least for me), functions were defined as a rule, a domain and a range. In university, the proper definition involves a rule, a domain and a codomain. And the change from a range to a codomain is quite important.
I know plenty of people who were not inclined towards maths and physics in high school in the slightest and would have dropped them given the option and are now in university or a technical college of some sort doing business/science and even engineering.
This is mostly in response to the article, but giving kids choices at high school or at an even lower level to drop maths education is a recipe for disaster.
EDIT: Oh, and being able to give something up because a kid finds it hard sends the entirely wrong kind of message, and will screw up a kid even more. Struggling and learning to put your head down and get through it is just as important.
There are two funny (on-topic) assertions I'm seeing in this thread.
First: "Algebra is so easy, so if you can't pass it, you must be retarded!" The main problem here is that yes, algebra is easy, but no, most people who fail it are not actually retarded. The US can't be that much "dumber" than European/Asian countries, whose students score much higher on tests of things like basic algebra. The problem lies in the way things are taught (and also in the fact that because high-school teachers are paid so little for such a difficult job, they are unlikely to be of high quality.) So it is true that we must at least reform our math education (and probably physics / computer science [which doesn't exist in most high schools] / other sciences as well.)
Second: "Removing algebra from schools is ridiculous!"
Yes, yes it is. But I'm pretty sure that's not what the article is saying. Rather, they propose that algebra no longer be a required subject. I agree that this is undesirable (for reasons which have mostly been covered in this thread), but making algebra not mandatory would hardly block anyone from entering a scientific field if they were interested.
Though if instead, you're arguing that if students were given a choice of whether to take algebra, they wouldn't (thus reducing the number of young people going into STEM-related fields), that might be a reasonable argument.
Anyway, I've touched on how the curriculum and maybe even the teachers of subjects like algebra / geometry / calculus are hurting American students---promoting, even requiring, mostly rote memorization rather than encouraging creativity and curiosity. I believe, however, that the biggest problem this causes is not that of poor student learning, but that the majority of the US really hates math. I think this is a pretty strange cultural phenomenon, considering the number of strong scientists / mathematicians / engineers, etc. that are educated in the US, and I think this hatred is caused by people's bad experiences in their grade-school math classes.
(Finally, an amusing anecdote: I was flying back from a math camp [yes, I'm a nerd, as you should be able to figure out] at age 14. Because I was an "unaccompanied minor," I had to be watched over by the flight attendants. There were a handful of other such unaccompanied minors, aged 7-10 or so.
I got bored and started doing a math problem. The kid next to me asked what I was doing; upon being told, he said "I don't like math. Math is boring."
I asked, "Why is math boring? I think math is pretty fun."
"I don't know, it's just boring."
After some more similar exchanges with the other kids, I was very sad.)
This leads to the natural questions like "Why do I have to take Literature?", "Why do I have to take a foreign language?", "Why do I have to take History?" etc.
The most common problem an algebra teacher faces is that the students do not have any basic concepts of numbers. For the first 10-20 weeks of the school year they have to go back and teach them concepts like number lines and division. They seem to learn it well and quickly, but then 2 weeks later they go back to the same way they were before all this time was used on them. Not teaching algebra is just like saying reading at a 2nd grade level is enough for an individual of this society.
Hm, I don't understand why it is bad that students drop out of high school. Is american high school designed so that everybody should pass it? Serious question, cause in Germany that is not the case.
On July 29 2012 17:38 JustPassingBy wrote: Hm, I don't understand why it is bad that students drop out of high school. Is american high school designed so that everybody should pass it? Serious question, cause in Germany that is not the case.
Sort of yeah. American high schools are INSANELY easier compared to european ones (i have studied both in Italy and the US during high school).
On July 29 2012 17:34 ]343[ wrote: There are two funny (on-topic) assertions I'm seeing in this thread.
First: "Algebra is so easy, so if you can't pass it, you must be retarded!" The main problem here is that yes, algebra is easy, but no, most people who fail it are not actually retarded. The US can't be that much "dumber" than European/Asian countries, whose students score much higher on tests of things like basic algebra. The problem lies in the way things are taught (and also in the fact that because high-school teachers are paid so little for such a difficult job, they are unlikely to be of high quality.) So it is true that we must at least reform our math education (and probably physics / computer science [which doesn't exist in most high schools] / other sciences as well.)
Second: "Removing algebra from schools is ridiculous!"
Yes, yes it is. But I'm pretty sure that's not what the article is saying. Rather, they propose that algebra no longer be a required subject. I agree that this is undesirable (for reasons which have mostly been covered in this thread), but making algebra not mandatory would hardly block anyone from entering a scientific field if they were interested.
Though if instead, you're arguing that if students were given a choice of whether to take algebra, they wouldn't (thus reducing the number of young people going into STEM-related fields), that might be a reasonable argument.
I couldn't remember the exact term previously, but I remember it now.
People suffer from hyperbolic discounting. You have to actively remind yourself to avoid it. The chances of a student in high school correctly making that decision is ... far fetched in my opinion.
On July 29 2012 17:36 Mallard86 wrote: This leads to the natural questions like "Why do I have to take Literature?", "Why do I have to take a foreign language?", "Why do I have to take History?" etc.
This extends even into college, where we are supposed to be taking classes for our careers. Do I seriously need to take government, history, english, math, foreign language, and a PE class? I am doing computer science... how are those all relevant? I could save myself thousands of dollars and 2 years if I were not required to take them.
I hope that mathematics departments can also create courses in the history and philosophy of their discipline, as well as its applications in early cultures. Why not mathematics in art and music — even poetry — along with its role in assorted sciences?
Because the math in music at least is really really fucking complicated for a high school student. We can't really teach them that different instruments have a different sound while making the same note because of fourier analysis right?
curiosity and critical thinking is the core values for a successful society and individual. Math if taught properly guides the student to embrace the scientific method, tingles you senses for new problems and discovery. Why will you not give this gift to as many students as possible?
Algebra... math in general, is actually way more helpful than 99% of the subjects learned in school. Ignoring the fact that is necessary for physics and chemistry, its actually one of the few subjects that develops you ability to think. If you believe that algebra is not necessary since " I will never use it in my life mom, i have a friend at NY times and he promised me he will give me a job to write shitty articles and publish them on the internet " than one of the reasons you are this dumb might be the very fact that you did not study math. I admit i don't know how hard 12th grade algebra is in USA, but i would imagine is not much harder than here... i would bet it's easier due to the things i heard from friends/family living abroad. I can say with confidence that the math you do in the schools here is kinda of a "brain check" unless you want to actually follow a university that involves math-related subjects. Indeed, i would go as far as to say that anyone who isn't able to obtain above 5 results should be cleaning the streets not going to college.
If you had to do anything "advanced" in terms of math at school i would argue its bad, some people might just be to dumb to get that... i myself don't think i would be able to resolve and international or even national math olympics subject in a million year, you actually have to be smart and train to do those kinda of things.
The article itself explains why its good that so many people fail math in USA. And quote: " one in four ninth graders fail to finish high school. In South Carolina, 34 percent fell away in 2008-9, according to national data released last year; for Nevada, it was 45 percent. Most of the educators I’ve talked with cite algebra as the major academic reason. " Now, lets be stereotypical here for a moment... i am not an American citizen myself but from what i hear South Carolina, Nevada and New Mexico and Tennessee aren't exactly the country finest when it comes to bright minds, you can see judging by the guys they vote and there position on recent events such as the whole LGBT marriage legalization debacle.
Now, if we assume for a second that its actually helpful to a country to have smart people in university, we can see that algebra might just be doing its job at making people that don't like to learn/think drop out of school... since they are not school material anyway. Not everyone can work at a desk... some have to do manual labor. The dummer you are the more fit you are for manual labor, there has to be a differentiation at some point between the 2 type of people... preferably BEFORE both of them have a college degree. Math is one of the main tools to differentiate between the 2 and its certainly helps develop algorithms of thinking at a young age. To remove mandatory algebra from school since its to hard to accept the fact that some kids are dumb and hate learning and the fact that not everyone is Einstein would be a HUGE step in the wrong direction.
On July 29 2012 17:36 Mallard86 wrote: This leads to the natural questions like "Why do I have to take Literature?", "Why do I have to take a foreign language?", "Why do I have to take History?" etc.
This extends even into college, where we are supposed to be taking classes for our careers. Do I seriously need to take government, history, english, math, foreign language, and a PE class? I am doing computer science... how are those all relevant? I could save myself thousands of dollars and 2 years if I were not required to take them.
The answer to your question is that it is part of the testing procedure. Future employers want to be confident that your degree not only taught you your field, but also took you outside your comfort zone and that you were capable of it. Somebody stated it earlier but the real value of a college degree is not that you are now capable of doing something in a field but that you are capable being taught to do something in a field.
Oh, and as I'm rereading this other article I posted earlier, he makes the following (familiar?) claim:
There is surely no more reliable way to kill enthusiasm and interest in a subject than to make it a mandatory part of the school curriculum.
However, he follows it up differently than the article in the OP does:
Include it as a major component of standardized testing and you virtually guarantee that the education establishment will suck the life out of it. School boards do not understand what math is, neither do educators, textbook authors, publishing companies, and sadly, neither do most of our math teachers.
He argues that math should be taught as an art, much like music or painting, rather than as something "important." Those who actually enjoy math will, indeed, learn more; the rest will at least find it interesting and fun.
On July 29 2012 17:36 Mallard86 wrote: This leads to the natural questions like "Why do I have to take Literature?", "Why do I have to take a foreign language?", "Why do I have to take History?" etc.
This extends even into college, where we are supposed to be taking classes for our careers. Do I seriously need to take government, history, english, math, foreign language, and a PE class? I am doing computer science... how are those all relevant? I could save myself thousands of dollars and 2 years if I were not required to take them.
The answer to your question is that it is part of the testing procedure. Future employers want to be confident that your degree not only taught you your field, but also took you outside your comfort zone and that you were capable of it. Somebody stated it earlier but the real value of a college degree is not that you are now capable of doing something in a field but that you are capable being taught to do something in a field.
I understand that its something that is done to show dedication, just that the concept of "why do i have to take x" doesnt only apply to high school, but college as wel.
I don't see why algebra needs to be removed as a mandatory subject. High school sets you up for college. It's not where you're learning your career. If you aren't able to buckle down and learn a subject you find difficult and uninteresting you probably wouldn't have made it through college either. I doubt Algebra is the real cause of so many drop-outs.
Include it as a major component of standardized testing and you virtually guarantee that the education establishment will suck the life out of it. School boards do not understand what math is, neither do educators, textbook authors, publishing companies, and sadly, neither do most of our math teachers.
He argues that math should be taught as an art, much like music or painting, rather than as something "important." Those who actually enjoy math will, indeed, learn more; the rest will at least find it interesting and fun.
I've read that article before, and I agree with most of it. Teaching math as a problem solving course, which is how it's mostly taught at university level should definitely increase interest from those who would otherwise hate the subject,
On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote: Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ?
I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world. Predicting what happens in the real world means that the design of a machine or system can be done in advance of building and testing it. Without mathematics, all technical design would be trial and error, and would take orders of magnitude more time to accomplish. Advancements in physics would halt completely.
As to the original question, algebra is definitely required. To stop teaching algebra to kids is to doom them to uncompetitiveness in an increasingly technical economy.
On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote: Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ?
I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world. Predicting what happens in the real world means that the design of a machine or system can be done in advance of building and testing it. Without mathematics, all technical design would be trial and error, and would take orders of magnitude more time to accomplish. Advancements in physics would halt completely.
As to the original question, algebra is definitely required. To stop teaching algebra to kids is to doom them to uncompetitiveness in an increasingly technical economy.
That's high school math, and it's the reason why it's dislike so much. You are given a few formulas, you plug shit in mindlessly and hope the number you get at the end is correct and that you didn't fuck up.
Actual math is more along the lines of "alright, i have this set of rules and hypothesis, and objects that i am defining in a very clear way. Let's see what conclusion i can come up with".
EPT
