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On July 29 2012 17:23 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 17:18 KuKri wrote:
Of course algebra is necessary, who would ever become a scientist in the physics, mathematics, chemisty etc. department if they have never learned algebra? I guess very few people would still try to study one of these subjects as the knowledge/skill gap from school to university would become way too large overcome it. Or Universities would have to begin their lessons with "A function is ..."
Who would ever want future generations of engineers to learn that instead of the usual Technical Mechanics or something like that where they need algebra? No one is saying scrap mathematics. People who are inclined towards physics and mathematics would still be able to do it. But why would a social worker, a radio host or a fitness coach need to know algebra? And they still need to redefined a function in university anyway, because the high school definition isn't abstract enough. For example, in high school (at least for me), functions were defined as a rule, a domain and a range. In university, the proper definition involves a rule, a domain and a codomain. And the change from a range to a codomain is quite important.
Why does an engineer, scientist, or mathematician need to know about U.S. history, art, literature, or health? Having a balanced education helps one understand the world as we know it and why things are done certain ways.
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I think math , native language and English are by far the most important subjects you can have in high school. How is biology and geography important for everyone in every profession?
First of all, school should be deliberately limited to preparing children and teenagers for their professional life. Any side issues should be the responsibility of the parents and the other people around them. Children need a broad development. But if school takes on this responsibility, they can't do their main job.
I think math is super essential for everyone that's going to work with their mind rather than their hands. Anyone getting an advanced education that has something to do with technology or science or statistical models, they need math.
The brain is a muscle and math is one of the ways to train that muscle. Algrebra is in fact a nusciance in math. The hardest stuff in calculus is often the algrebra. You can make algebra as easy or as difficult as you want. You can make a messy problem that takes an hour or longer to solve because it needs several pages of algebra.
In my country children that are low level in language have to do low level math. Children that are low in math have to do low level language. It's a very stupid system, imo. Education has to have inspirational teachers that are very confident in what they do. They need to have small classes with individual attention for the students. They need to be able to provide the exact type of education that is appropiate for that student.
Everyone has genetic limits. So the actual limit should be the genetic one, not one created by poor circumstances. I am sure every kid can pass US high school algebra.
Problem with math is that you need to build it up from the ground. If you mess up at the base of the pyramid, you are fucked trying to build the top and you fail. There's no point keeping a student in a class he or she is not gonna pass because the foundation is messed up. If you struggle with basic algebra you are wasting your time in a calc or trig class. And these students just think math is some strange magical thing they just can't get. Of course they can't.
Also, if you decide to stay in education longer and decide you want to be more ambilitious in your twenties than in your teens, lack of math will be the limiting factor.
When I was in high school people other students always used to say that we were only going to use math when we were going to be math teachers. And yes, for most of these students that was probably true. We as students had no idea how much math is used by 'smart people' in companies all around the world. The issue is being able to get such a job. Want to buy a car or bridge? Want to develop certain technology? Want to understand markets or the economy? Want to do research on food crops? Math is your no.1 toolkit.
I understand aversion to math is even bigger in the US. Students need to learn how math is used. I blame society as a whole. Kids aren't lazy or stupid. They are made to be so.
I also think tv and computer games are a huge problem. Imagine Leibnitz or Newton as a kid. What did they do with their spare time?
People in the past got fucking bored. You basically had 2 ways to entertain yourself. Books or other people.
I know for sure I would be a hell smarter today without spending all the time using computers and TV. Of course it makes a lot of stuff more convenient as well. But it does create lazier brains.
But adults blaming kids when education fails is just stupid. The kids should blame the adults. It's their system. They created/voted for it.
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Learning maths and other majors change the way how people think, its not just knowledge, so I would disagree with the article.
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On July 29 2012 17:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 17:41 sixfour wrote:
it's funny that i only didn't immediately see real life applications for maths until i got to degree level Well, how are you supposed to see real life applications before you have experienced real life?
That's what teachers are for. Unfortunatelly most (at the lower levels) are just satisfied with telling kids to memories answers rather than to actually make any effort to teach kids what the point is. It wasn't until university level I actually had a teacher that was passionate about math, and it makes a huge difference.
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On July 29 2012 17:55 lithiumdeuteride wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote:
Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ? I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world. Predicting what happens in the real world means that the design of a machine or system can be done in advance of building and testing it. Without mathematics, all technical design would be trial and error, and would take orders of magnitude more time to accomplish. Advancements in physics would halt completely. As to the original question, algebra is definitely required. To stop teaching algebra to kids is to doom them to uncompetitiveness in an increasingly technical economy.
You might disagree, however you are wrong regarding the topic. The NYT article doesn't discuss algebra in the same way you consider it. I've taken 2 years worth of university math now, and I've finally begun to understand some of the more advanced stuff I've been taking for granted in my physics-courses. (Big wtf-moment when I saw that generalized angular momentum "just appears" when you solve spherical harmonics).
And I would never suggest to anyone who isn't planning to work in a similair field to mine to take the amount of math I've taken. However, what the article talks about is extremely fundamental and basic algebra, which is taught when you are 13-18 years old. In this period the pre-frontal cortex is developing, and at this time forcing the child/young adult to think logically / rationally is greatly beneficial to the development of the brain. That is one of the main reasons math isn't elective, and also the fact that we use the math we learn at that age all the time, just that we don't even consider the fact that we are doing it.
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United States10328 Posts
On July 29 2012 17:55 lithiumdeuteride wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote:
Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ? I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world.
Ah, but there are a number of distinctions to be made here: you are referring to "useful mathematics," which is indeed about accurately predicting what happens in the real world. There is also "research mathematics," which is more exploration than computation [hopefully]. (Here I'm referring to a broader division than the one between 'applied' and 'pure' research mathematics.)
But I think we should be talking about mathematics education here. Yes, it is important to get the right answer (and most people who use math in their job or in their daily life are, indeed, concerned with obtaining the correct answer), but by teaching people to get the right answer through memorization is only going to discourage interest in the subject, and prevent students from generalizing to find things on their own.
Those who will be using a certain piece of mathematics (algebra beyond 1-variable linear equations, trig, calculus, etc.) in their jobs will indeed have to be able to compute things accurately. But for those who won't (a huge majority of people for trig and calculus, and a smaller majority for algebra), wouldn't it be better to show them how the subject is interesting and cool and fun? And have them develop logical reasoning and problem solving skills along the way?
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On July 29 2012 18:08 Groog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 17:55 lithiumdeuteride wrote:On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote:
Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ? I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world. Predicting what happens in the real world means that the design of a machine or system can be done in advance of building and testing it. Without mathematics, all technical design would be trial and error, and would take orders of magnitude more time to accomplish. Advancements in physics would halt completely. As to the original question, algebra is definitely required. To stop teaching algebra to kids is to doom them to uncompetitiveness in an increasingly technical economy. You might disagree, however you are wrong regarding the topic. The NYT article doesn't discuss algebra in the same way you consider it. I've taken 2 years worth of university math now, and I've finally begun to understand some of the more advanced stuff I've been taking for granted in my physics-courses. (Big wtf-moment when I saw that generalized angular momentum "just appears" when you solve spherical harmonics). And I would never suggest to anyone who isn't planning to work in a similair field to mine to take the amount of math I've taken. However, what the article talks about is extremely fundamental and basic algebra, which is taught when you are 13-18 years old. In this period the pre-frontal cortex is developing, and at this time forcing the child/young adult to think logically / rationally is greatly beneficial to the development of the brain. That is one of the main reasons math isn't elective, and also the fact that we use the math we learn at that age all the time, just that we don't even consider the fact that we are doing it.
Actually, the article is talking about "polynomial functions [and] parametric equations" and trigonometry, which is more advanced than just basic algebra.
I agree that very basic algebra like subtracting x from both sides should be taught. It has useful applications in, say, calculating how much money you've spent.
With all seriousness, trigonometry is one of the most useless things you'll ever learn, unless you go on to do math related jobs.
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This article is a joke. The failure of American students to pass algebra courses reflects poorly on themselves and the quality of the American public education system, not on algebra itself.
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What is the content of those high school algebra course ?
For instance, as a maths student in France, I think we teach too much maths to some people in middle/high school. The situation might be different in the US.
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Are individuals really being hampered by one subject to the point where they can't succeed in others? I wish we could see the statistics of kids dropping out if they didn't have to take math/algebra. Is algebra the "major academic reason" for dropping out or is that just inherently the subject that takes the biggest hit from weaknesses in the cultural attitude or education system since it depends primarily on strictly followed rules and foundations to succeed.
A sad fact about America's education system: In 2008 the U.S. was the only developed nation where a higher percent of 55- to 64-year-olds than 25- to 34-year-olds had graduated from high school. Going the wrong way and i don't think it's because algebra is getting in the way...
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My knee-jerk reaction was "that's crazy! algebra is extremely useful!", but then I considered that maybe algebra is truly holding a lot of people back from graduating and whatnot.
But upon third thought, it might be more a problem with our education system and not algebra as a subject. I personally think that a lot of teachers do an absolutely terrible job of conveying the course material to students oftentimes, and I think axing algebra (which has actually come up surprising often) is not the answer to our rather horrible education system.
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Of course it's necessary. I say bring more math into the school, it helps with logic, which is used by EVERYBODY. Not everybody uses math the way we actually learn it ("x/2=4 solve for x", etc) but everybody benefits from it.
Should it be removed / dumbed down? NO. Down alter school to suit idiots, alter school to motivate them to work harder.
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On July 29 2012 18:02 alderamin wrote:
I think math , native language and English are by far the most important subjects you can have in high school. How is biology and geography important for everyone in every profession?
First of all, school should be deliberately limited to preparing children and teenagers for their professional life. Any side issues should be the responsibility of the parents and the other people around them. Children need a broad development. But if school takes on this responsibility, they can't do their main job.
I think math is super essential for everyone that's going to work with their mind rather than their hands. Anyone getting an advanced education that has something to do with technology or science or statistical models, they need math.
The brain is a muscle and math is one of the ways to train that muscle. Algrebra is in fact a nusciance in math. The hardest stuff in calculus is often the algrebra. You can make algebra as easy or as difficult as you want. You can make a messy problem that takes an hour or longer to solve because it needs several pages of algebra.
In my country children that are low level in language have to do low level math. Children that are low in math have to do low level language. It's a very stupid system, imo. Education has to have inspirational teachers that are very confident in what they do. They need to have small classes with individual attention for the students. They need to be able to provide the exact type of education that is appropiate for that student.
Everyone has genetic limits. So the actual limit should be the genetic one, not one created by poor circumstances. I am sure every kid can pass US high school algebra.
Problem with math is that you need to build it up from the ground. If you mess up at the base of the pyramid, you are fucked trying to build the top and you fail. There's no point keeping a student in a class he or she is not gonna pass because the foundation is messed up. If you struggle with basic algebra you are wasting your time in a calc or trig class. And these students just think math is some strange magical thing they just can't get. Of course they can't.
Also, if you decide to stay in education longer and decide you want to be more ambilitious in your twenties than in your teens, lack of math will be the limiting factor.
When I was in high school people other students always used to say that we were only going to use math when we were going to be math teachers. And yes, for most of these students that was probably true. We as students had no idea how much math is used by 'smart people' in companies all around the world. The issue is being able to get such a job. Want to buy a car or bridge? Want to develop certain technology? Want to understand markets or the economy? Want to do research on food crops? Math is your no.1 toolkit.
I understand aversion to math is even bigger in the US. Students need to learn how math is used. I blame society as a whole. Kids aren't lazy or stupid. They are made to be so.
I also think tv and computer games are a huge problem. Imagine Leibnitz or Newton as a kid. What did they do with their spare time?
People in the past got fucking bored. You basically had 2 ways to entertain yourself. Books or other people.
I know for sure I would be a hell smarter today without spending all the time using computers and TV. Of course it makes a lot of stuff more convenient as well. But it does create lazier brains.
But adults blaming kids when education fails is just stupid. The kids should blame the adults. It's their system. They created/voted for it.
Really? Can you show me any well-done study that proves this? I haven't seen a single one.
It's not that it creates lazier brains, it creates lazier people. Newton, Neumann and Leibnitz and so on just worked hard. It wasn't the time they didn't spend on watching TV that kept their brains fresh, it was the time they WERE spending on actually studying their respective subjects.
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On July 29 2012 18:12 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 18:08 Groog wrote:On July 29 2012 17:55 lithiumdeuteride wrote:On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote:
Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ? I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world. Predicting what happens in the real world means that the design of a machine or system can be done in advance of building and testing it. Without mathematics, all technical design would be trial and error, and would take orders of magnitude more time to accomplish. Advancements in physics would halt completely. As to the original question, algebra is definitely required. To stop teaching algebra to kids is to doom them to uncompetitiveness in an increasingly technical economy. You might disagree, however you are wrong regarding the topic. The NYT article doesn't discuss algebra in the same way you consider it. I've taken 2 years worth of university math now, and I've finally begun to understand some of the more advanced stuff I've been taking for granted in my physics-courses. (Big wtf-moment when I saw that generalized angular momentum "just appears" when you solve spherical harmonics). And I would never suggest to anyone who isn't planning to work in a similair field to mine to take the amount of math I've taken. However, what the article talks about is extremely fundamental and basic algebra, which is taught when you are 13-18 years old. In this period the pre-frontal cortex is developing, and at this time forcing the child/young adult to think logically / rationally is greatly beneficial to the development of the brain. That is one of the main reasons math isn't elective, and also the fact that we use the math we learn at that age all the time, just that we don't even consider the fact that we are doing it. Actually, the article is talking about "polynomial functions [and] parametric equations" and trigonometry, which is more advanced than just basic algebra. I agree that very basic algebra like subtracting x from both sides should be taught. It has useful applications in, say, calculating how much money you've spent. With all seriousness, trigonometry is one of the most useless things you'll ever learn, unless you go on to do math related jobs.
Ever renovated an apartment? Built anything by yourself? etc. Trigonometry is not useless.
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I'm a biochem major, though could easily have gone into any science once I was admitted in university. I was never required to do a mathematics course or score high on it. There are entrance exams with various subjects, I only had to pass the biology one. And poor math marks from high school were covered by better marks from other stuff.
Don't see any reason why colleges in the US couldn't do this, unless they were using math as a convenient method to filter their applicants. The article is correct in that you don't need higher mathematics for most things.
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On July 29 2012 18:35 Tanukki wrote:
I'm a biochem major, though could easily have gone into any science once I was admitted in university. I was never required to do a mathematics course or score high on it. There are entrance exams with various subjects, I only had to pass the biology one. And poor math marks from high school were covered by better marks from other stuff.
Don't see any reason why the US couldn't do this, unless they were using math as a convenient method to filter their applicants. The article is correct in that you don't need higher mathematics for most things.
Not sure if this is entirely applicable to your post, but in the US at least, people still generally need to be pretty good at mathematics in order to be accepted by a good university. Almost all of the "smart asians" applying to the Ivy League and related research institutions should have high marks across the board and whatnot in order to be admitted for any major.
To be honest, though, algebra really is not very high-level math in the grand scheme of things. A lot of middle schools offer it to kids and algebra and trigonometry at least are very useful...kids should have to understand those before graduating.
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Is the gender of the drop outs mentioned at any point? High drop out rates could simply be alot of girls and an example of how gender expectations cause girls to fail hard in algebra through no fault of there own.
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"Let no one ignorant of geometry enter". Mathematics is essential for the human brain to be considered "educated". It's not even about how usefull the math itself is, but it's the fact that it teaches you how to think. It trains your brain for problem-solving and logical ideea flow. Any person thinking any basic branch of mathematics be excluded from any nation's ed system is either retarded or has an elitist agenda close to "we need less people to know math. we need less people who know how to think" .
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On July 29 2012 18:39 Aerisky wrote:
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Yea it's true that it's necessary to understand to some point. Even I had to calculate things related to buffering solutions, enzyme kinetics, thermodynamics, etc. and I appreciate having at least some math education as a base. But surely that's not the kind of mathematics that's dropping all these students?
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I've done some maths, until you have to differentiate imaginary functions, at this point I understood what it may look like to people who have a hard time doing math but it also showed me that I knew almost nothing about mathematics. It's very basic until the end of highschool.
Many people seems to believe school is to learn a job but it's not, it's about having civilised citizen & maths are as important to our civilization than history. Besides school system just evaluate if you have the capacity to sit behind a desk the whole day when you're a child or a young man. We all know some really smart people who are just not made to sit behind a desk & therefore sucked at school. Then they don't deserve to graduate because it's all about sitting behind this desk. Life is long after this, they have no choice but to pick the hard way (no good diploma) but it does not mean they won't succeed in an other way.
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EPT
