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Well since they lowered the bar so much for kids in school in the past decades, we can surely expect algebra going out of fashion  ). Idiocracy is coming true sooner than expected...hmm..
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On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote:
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that.
But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)?
The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
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I don't even understand what kind of algebra we're talking about.
Is that really the miserable equation solving we did in high school?
Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra ?
Because if that's it, I do think this basic knowledge should be taught in high school, it even seems rather useful. Believe me, way more than what we actually call algebra over here :D. In fact, I didn't know it was "algebra" we were doing all along until we started studying structures and vector spaces and all that shit...
If you want to learn about something truly useless in mathematics, check out category theory.
And it's 13:37 here.
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On July 29 2012 20:29 bOneSeven wrote:Well since they lowered the bar so much for kids in school in the past decades, we can surely expect algebra going out of fashion ). Idiocracy is coming true sooner than expected...hmm..
"The ancient Oracle said that I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing"
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On July 29 2012 20:37 ZenithM wrote:I don't even understand what kind of algebra we're talking about. Is that really the miserable equation solving we did in high school? Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra ? Because if that's it, I do think this basic knowledge should be taught in high school, it even seems rather useful. Believe me, way more than what we actually call algebra over here :D. In fact, I didn't know it was "algebra" we were doing all along until we started studying structures and vector spaces and all that shit... If you want to learn about something truly useless in mathematics, check out category theory. And it's 13:37 here.
Yes, we're talking about elementary algebra.
I think you're talking about groups, rings, and vector spaces which is abstract algebra, and as with most areas of advanced mathematics, usually the only applications are to other areas of mathematics or to physics. I believe group theory has applications in quantum physics, something to do with spins of particles? But I'm not a physicist so that example might be wrong.
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On July 29 2012 20:42 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:37 ZenithM wrote:I don't even understand what kind of algebra we're talking about. Is that really the miserable equation solving we did in high school? Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra ? Because if that's it, I do think this basic knowledge should be taught in high school, it even seems rather useful. Believe me, way more than what we actually call algebra over here :D. In fact, I didn't know it was "algebra" we were doing all along until we started studying structures and vector spaces and all that shit... If you want to learn about something truly useless in mathematics, check out category theory. And it's 13:37 here. Yes, we're talking about elementary algebra. I think you're talking about groups, rings, and vector spaces which is abstract algebra, and as with most areas of advanced mathematics, usually the only applications are to other areas of mathematics or to physics. I believe group theory has applications in quantum physics, something to do with spins or states or particles? But I'm not a physicist so that example might be wrong.
I already asked the question in this thread : as French, it is not clear what you guys call elementary algebra :/
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On July 29 2012 20:43 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:42 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 20:37 ZenithM wrote:I don't even understand what kind of algebra we're talking about. Is that really the miserable equation solving we did in high school? Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra ? Because if that's it, I do think this basic knowledge should be taught in high school, it even seems rather useful. Believe me, way more than what we actually call algebra over here :D. In fact, I didn't know it was "algebra" we were doing all along until we started studying structures and vector spaces and all that shit... If you want to learn about something truly useless in mathematics, check out category theory. And it's 13:37 here. Yes, we're talking about elementary algebra. I think you're talking about groups, rings, and vector spaces which is abstract algebra, and as with most areas of advanced mathematics, usually the only applications are to other areas of mathematics or to physics. I believe group theory has applications in quantum physics, something to do with spins or states or particles? But I'm not a physicist so that example might be wrong. I already asked the question in this thread : as French, it is not clear what you guys call elementary algebra :/
Symbolic manipulation, factoring and solving quadratics. solving systems of linear equations. playing with index laws and log laws, etc. Maybe also some trigonometry too, such as find angles or sides of triangles, stuffing around with rules for sin, cos, tan, etc.
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On July 29 2012 20:35 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote:
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means. I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that. But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)? The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah.
If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something.
By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem?
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On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote:
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible.
Nobody is saying Algebra should be taken out of education. Most people are saying it shouldn't be a requirement to people not wanting to go into math/sci related fields. It's pointless to make someone like me, who is learning to graphically design images, to learn anything beyond basic math because I simply don't need it or have an interest in it.
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On July 29 2012 20:46 Deadlyhazard wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote:
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible. Nobody is saying Algebra should be taken out of education. Most people are saying it shouldn't be a requirement to people not wanting to go into math/sci related fields. It's pointless to make someone like me, who is learning to graphically design images, to learn anything beyond basic math because I simply don't need it or have an interest in it.
Why do you need an education at all to graphically design images? Why is it necessary for you to have a high school diploma when you have not earned it? Why should everyone's diploma be worth less because you don't want to take basic education course?
Why is it more important to people that everyone pass high school rather than important to people that everyone get educated?
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On July 29 2012 20:48 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:46 Deadlyhazard wrote:On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote:
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible. Nobody is saying Algebra should be taken out of education. Most people are saying it shouldn't be a requirement to people not wanting to go into math/sci related fields. It's pointless to make someone like me, who is learning to graphically design images, to learn anything beyond basic math because I simply don't need it or have an interest in it. Why do you need an education at all to graphically design images? Why is it necessary for you to have a high school diploma when you have not earned it? Why should everyone's diploma be worth less because you don't want to take basic education course?
Because education is very, very necessary to illustrate. Whether it be self-taught or through school, every artist/designer/whateveryouwanttocallthem is educated on the past 600 years of advancements in graphical imagery -- otherwise you can't produce anything interesting because you won't know how to (since art is based on observational science, really). I think basic education is fine -- I don't feel advanced algebra (in other words -- college level or beyond) is necessary to everyone. I was fine passing algebra in high school, but I felt it was a huge waste of time and really unnecessary in college. I feel that past basic high school level algebra, math should not be required to receive higher level education in non-math/sci related fields.
I think I'm getting confused on what everyone means by 'algebra.' There are several different basic algebras with the same name taught in middleschool, highschool, and college -- the one I'm referring to is college algebra. I don't think it's necessary for everyone.
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Some one should show the number of people who can't make it as a cashier at mcdonalds, because they can't do the algebra. The number is actually really high.
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On July 29 2012 20:46 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:35 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote:
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means. I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that. But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)? The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem. No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah. If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something. By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem?
You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second thought, no mathematician will ever be hired for their ability to perform symbolic manipulation).
You're point about mortgages is highly ironic.
[It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world? http://gowers.wordpress.com/2009/07/11/help-im-stuck-in-my-ivory-tower/
How is it lessening the standard of education to allow people who want to do something else with their lives to not do math beyond a basic level? They could be learning something else they are passionate or interested in instead. What is the educational value for them, or for society, in forcing them into doing something they don't like, and won't use?
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On July 29 2012 20:52 Deadlyhazard wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:48 DoubleReed wrote:On July 29 2012 20:46 Deadlyhazard wrote:On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote:
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible. Nobody is saying Algebra should be taken out of education. Most people are saying it shouldn't be a requirement to people not wanting to go into math/sci related fields. It's pointless to make someone like me, who is learning to graphically design images, to learn anything beyond basic math because I simply don't need it or have an interest in it. Why do you need an education at all to graphically design images? Why is it necessary for you to have a high school diploma when you have not earned it? Why should everyone's diploma be worth less because you don't want to take basic education course? Because education is very, very necessary to illustrate. Whether it be self-taught or through school, every artist/designer/whateveryouwanttocallthem is educated on the past 600 years of advancements in graphical imagery -- otherwise you can't produce anything interesting because you won't know how to (since art is based on observational science, really). I think basic education is fine -- I don't feel advanced algebra (in other words -- college level or beyond) is necessary to everyone. I was fine passing algebra in high school, but I felt it was a huge waste of time and really unnecessary in college. I feel that past basic high school level algebra, math should not be required to receive higher level education in non-math/sci related fields. I think I'm getting confused on what everyone means by 'algebra.' There are several different basic algebras with the same name taught in middleschool, highschool, and college -- the one I'm referring to is college algebra. I don't think it's necessary for everyone.
We're talking about high school algebra. Generally it means symbolic manipulation.
I fail to see how education is necessary to illustrate. Maybe artistic education. I'll agree with that. But you can get that at Art Schools. But English, History, Science, these are all unnecessary to you. You don't need a high school diploma to illustrate.
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On July 29 2012 20:46 Deadlyhazard wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote:
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible. Nobody is saying Algebra should be taken out of education. Most people are saying it shouldn't be a requirement to people not wanting to go into math/sci related fields. It's pointless to make someone like me, who is learning to graphically design images, to learn anything beyond basic math because I simply don't need it or have an interest in it.
Algebra at the level taught in high school IS basic math. There are 3 reasons you would need it:
1) Kids taking algebra do not know what they want, even if they think they do. Not teaching them fundamental tools like algebra severely restricts their options at an unneccessarily early point of their education.
2) Should you ever change your mind slightly you may be fucked by not knowing algebra. If you decided you wanted some sort of transition into scripting/programming anything graphical you would be fucked for instance. Should you ever encounter algorithmically generated content (very likely), then there is a high likelyhood you will need an understanding of something that requires algebra.
3) Algebra is not just a tool. If you struggle, then likely that is a sign you have a hard time keeping track of a small number of abstract quantities or has a hard time understanding slightly abstract material. These are skills that are very basic to any individual in a career that requires some kind of creativity (whether it be scientific research, engineering, graphical design or sales). Basic algebra is one of the simplest ways to learn this kind of reasoning. If you were already capable of such at an appropriate level you would find algebra trivial.
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On July 29 2012 20:42 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:37 ZenithM wrote:I don't even understand what kind of algebra we're talking about. Is that really the miserable equation solving we did in high school? Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra ? Because if that's it, I do think this basic knowledge should be taught in high school, it even seems rather useful. Believe me, way more than what we actually call algebra over here :D. In fact, I didn't know it was "algebra" we were doing all along until we started studying structures and vector spaces and all that shit... If you want to learn about something truly useless in mathematics, check out category theory. And it's 13:37 here. Yes, we're talking about elementary algebra. I think you're talking about groups, rings, and vector spaces which is abstract algebra, and as with most areas of advanced mathematics, usually the only applications are to other areas of mathematics or to physics. I believe group theory has applications in quantum physics, something to do with spins or states or particles? But I'm not a physicist so that example might be wrong.
Ok, thanks.
I think in France the word "Algèbre" is really not used to talk about the things we do up to high school that are actually algebra, so that's why I was confused :D.
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On July 29 2012 20:55 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:46 DoubleReed wrote:On July 29 2012 20:35 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote:
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means. I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that. But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)? The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem. No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah. If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something. By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem? You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second though, no mathematician will ever be hired to their ability to do symbolic manipulation),. You're point about mortgages to high ironic. Show nested quote +[It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world? http://gowers.wordpress.com/2009/07/11/help-im-stuck-in-my-ivory-tower/ How is it lessening the standard of education to not force people who want to do something with their lives to do not math? What is the educational value for them, or for society for force them into doing something they don't like, and won't use?
What is the societal value for pretending like they have a basic education? What is the societal value for passing them, when other people passed by learning how to do basic fucking algebra?
There are plenty of jobs that do not require any education whatsoever. That doesn't mean we should just hand out diplomas on the street.
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On July 29 2012 20:58 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 20:46 DoubleReed wrote:On July 29 2012 20:35 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote:
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means. I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that. But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)? The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem. No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah. If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something. By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem? You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second though, no mathematician will ever be hired to their ability to do symbolic manipulation),. You're point about mortgages to high ironic. [It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world? http://gowers.wordpress.com/2009/07/11/help-im-stuck-in-my-ivory-tower/How is it lessening the standard of education to not force people who want to do something with their lives to do not math? What is the educational value for them, or for society for force them into doing something they don't like, and won't use? What is the societal value for pretending like they have a basic education? What is the societal value for passing them, when other people passed by learning how to do basic fucking algebra? There are plenty of jobs that do not require any education whatsoever. That doesn't mean we should just hand out diplomas on the street.
It might be shocking, but it's possible to be learned and intelligent without being learned and intelligent in math. And this is coming from a mathematician.
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I'd say we need more specialized schools for people who want them. Today's schools train a lot of generalists who are average at everything and excel at nothing. I think that is the pedagogic weakness we face today. Portraying algebra as a problem isn't enough, the root of the problem is elsewhere.
You can be extremely good at one thing, but it won't matter as long as you don't manage to be at least average at the others (cause then you wouldn't pass the class) .
Teacher's tasks are not to recognize these areas of talent and then push us to the limits in these areas, but encourage us to be lazy in the areas we're good at (cause it's sufficient to pass the tests), and put effort into areas we don't have talent in (necessary to pass the tests).
The actual specialization occurs at university, where for many the problem arises that they aren't sure what they're good at, or not good enough at the specialized field they chose, causing all sorts of trouble for them during their studies, interruptions etc.
Schools are slowly implementing an early differentiation in skillsets they teach, but I'm not sure if that will be enough.
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On July 29 2012 21:02 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 20:58 DoubleReed wrote:On July 29 2012 20:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 20:46 DoubleReed wrote:On July 29 2012 20:35 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote:
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means. I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that. But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)? The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem. No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah. If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something. By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem? You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second though, no mathematician will ever be hired to their ability to do symbolic manipulation),. You're point about mortgages to high ironic. [It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world? http://gowers.wordpress.com/2009/07/11/help-im-stuck-in-my-ivory-tower/How is it lessening the standard of education to not force people who want to do something with their lives to do not math? What is the educational value for them, or for society for force them into doing something they don't like, and won't use? What is the societal value for pretending like they have a basic education? What is the societal value for passing them, when other people passed by learning how to do basic fucking algebra? There are plenty of jobs that do not require any education whatsoever. That doesn't mean we should just hand out diplomas on the street. It might be shocking, but it's possible to be learned and intelligent without being learned and intelligent in math. And this is coming from a mathematician.
It's possible to be learned and intelligent without getting a diploma or college degree. What's your point?
And I'm a mathematician too! *fistbump*
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