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EscPlan9
United States2777 Posts
On July 29 2012 21:35 Mr Showtime wrote: Yes, and especially for the people who struggle the most learning it. Rational thinking and problem solving can be taught much more effectively than through math. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
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Benjamin99
4176 Posts
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HallBregg
134 Posts
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 29 2012 21:36 DoubleReed wrote: A high school diploma says "I didn't fail high school." Well, no, actually it means "I passed high school." What exactly do you think that means? Is high school just a period of time for people now? Is it another word of adolescence? No, it means you passed courses in basic education. And that's what algebra is. Basic education. No, I'm saying by allowing people to get a diploma without passing algebra lessens the worth of all degrees. By definition it does this. It no longer means "I have basic math skills." The goal of education is not to pass everyone. The goal of education is to educate. Furthermore, it's also about work, not just intelligence. What you're saying is that neither should be required for a high school diploma. And that, to me, is horrible. I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusion of making math optional beyond the basics at high school to passing everyone. To educate doesn't necessarily imply to educate in math. I can think of a lot of subjects that would be more useful to non-mathematically inclined people than polynomials and parametric equations. For example, classes in statistical literacy and reading graphs and tables, classes on analyzing and thinking about the current news, classes on programming and basic programming logic, classes on food, nutrition and healthy eating etc. You might say that statistics cannot be learned properly without understanding algebra and calculus (really, it can't be learned properly without measure theory), and I would agree. But the aim of such a course isn't to teach statistics properly, it's to teach how to interpret a confidence interval for people who will never be a mathematician or statistician, rather than for example to prove the almost sure convergence of the sample mean. If you want to learn statistics properly you can take a real math class in high school, and then real math and stats courses at university. | ||
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
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Ayoeme
Latvia59 Posts
The point i'm making is that if logic, problem solving is enough to deal with maths, struggling and learning to deal with it might also improve these very important assets. Though i will agree that math(algebra) course really could be "cut" down a little bit. I never really liked trigonometry as i failed to see practical problems that i needed to solve (which was the only fun thing in maths), yet it was a huge portion of the whole math course. So I (based on my experience) wouldn't mind cutting down a few edges to provide a less confusing math course. But i disagree that writers don't need to know semi-high level maths. Same goes for philosophers. As it is always useful to know and understand more of this world. We can't clone a writer, burst math knowledge into him and compare, but i'm fairly sure that simply knowing all the mathematical problems, flaws, one is more knowledgeable and diverse in his writing. | ||
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G4rrett
England124 Posts
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
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mikell
Australia352 Posts
Knowledge of algebra is needed. Learning maths is like learning a language. If you can't manipulate an equation you will never understand the functions/equations you're using. I've taught kids who have literally no idea how to manipulate a simple y=mx+c at year 12. I know a lot of people actually tend towards the arts, but without forcing kids to learn algebra up until senior high school levels really leaves gaps in general knowledge and also severely lowers IQ (as in, how long it takes to take in information) in relation to any science/math subject. Kids have absolutely NO idea what they want to be when they grow up. These decisions aren't really made until they hit 18. For a greater chance to pursue what they want to do, they need to cover all the bases when it comes to their education. You only need to exit high school with enough knowledge of the world to pursue higher education, or to go out and practice a trade. Engineers literally make the world go around and yet I bet 95% of the population has no idea what an engineer does. I tutor maths on weekends and students often ask me why they have to learn maths. You LITERALLY need maths in EVERY SINGLE occupation that requires a higher education. Kids don't even understand this. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
Unless of course you suggest we shouldn't have required classes at all, just a certain number of them taken. | ||
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ParkwayDrive
United States328 Posts
forget that its the language of physics and hence the universe and all of that. o and algebra is easy as shit. its actually a pretty good way to decide if you even belong in high school or a trade school now that i think about it | ||
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YuTz
United States119 Posts
I know that can be a very dangerous thing but I feel it is something that we as a society can tackle with the right people. Just my two cents. | ||
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Smoot
United States128 Posts
They will not understand the consequences of not-learning Algebra early on until it is too late. At 18-19 they may say, you know, I wasn't BAD at Algebra, maybe I'll look into a science or engineering career. But if they decided at 13 not to take Algebra because "it sucked", then they just cut short their future career prospects without realizing it. Not to mention the career prospects that they are forgoing are some of the highest paying career prospects out there. I'm sure this will get glossed over in 5 minutes with posts about how math stinks and how it is completely worthless to learn for them. I'll try to give examples. Algebra is needed in all electricity designs. Voltage = Current * Power. You need to know how to manipulate this very simple equation. Also, you need it for resistances in wire etc. There are things called strain gauges EVERYWHERE in the world. It works off the principle that resistance is a function of material properties and length. Thus if you have a current going through a thin metal wire, and the wire is elongated or bends, then the resistance changes. This is used in a ridiculous amount of applications such as weight scales (the digital ones), thermostats (thermistors are used here), temperature gauges (heat expands metal which changes length etc)... etc etc. The power company finds breaks in transmission lines using by striking the end of it and calculating how long it takes for the echo to come back to them. This is a relation of the speed of sound and the material properties, and you can pinpoint the break in a line a mile long using this method. (The sound will reflect from the break, whereas if the line is continuous without breaks, then the echo will not return until it reaches the end of the line). Or how about you want to calculate whether or not you will make more money with a $10 job 50 miles away or a minimum wage job next door? Calculate your miles per gallon for your car and use that to find your overall expense of the job further away. Or perhaps you can buy a car with 35 mpg to replace your 15 mpg truck and you will realize you save enough in gas to make the car payment every month compared to owning the truck. Anyhow, there are a MILLION examples on why Algebra is important. | ||
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Kontys
Finland659 Posts
The OP is very clearly a "social scientist" who ought to tarred and feathered for daring to present such foolish garbage. Given the data in the OP, it would appear to me that the problem lies with how you teach mathematics rather than what you teach of it. You could also consider dropping the bar to let people graduate. PS. I find it hilarious that she should remark that "better" teaching of mathematics might help people to generate improved political opinion and social analysis. My blood boils when I read this kind of degenerate folly in a good newspaper. PPS. You so called social scientists have done enough damage to society already. It is an affront to justice that it is you attacking us, when it should be us attacking you. Go look at the achievements of each of our disciplines and tell me that teaching science is a bad idea, whilst focusing on social sciences is a good one. Go on. Go on now. What? What do you mean that's an unfair comparison? Go suck a fucking tailpipe. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 29 2012 22:23 Smoot wrote: Letting a teenager 13-16 decide whether or not to learn Algebra is basically letting them decide to limit their choice of career in life 5 years down the road. They will not understand the consequences of not-learning Algebra early on until it is too late. At 18-19 they may say, you know, I wasn't BAD at Algebra, maybe I'll look into a science or engineering career. But if they decided at 13 not to take Algebra because "it sucked", then they just cut short their future career prospects without realizing it. Not to mention the career prospects that they are forgoing are some of the highest paying career prospects out there. I'm sure this will get glossed over in 5 minutes with posts about how math stinks and how it is completely worthless to learn for them. I think you overestimate the amount of jobs that use algebra. The articles cites a source that says that it will be 5% over the next several years. So it will be useless for 95% of students in their future careers. And then there's this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/us-pushes-for-more-scientists-but-the-jobs-arent-there/2012/07/07/gJQAZJpQUW_story.html and this: http://mikethemadbiologist.com/2012/07/09/the-stem-phd-glut-makes-the-mainstream-media/#more-10493 | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 29 2012 22:24 Kontys wrote: Nature sets the constraints under which science operates, science sets the constraints under which engineering operates, and engineering sets the constraints under which everyone else operates. If we want for the horizons of mankind to expand, we must ensure that as many talented people as possible are exposed to science and mathematics in particular. The OP is very clearly a "social scientist" who ought to tarred and feathered for daring to present such foolish garbage. Given the data in the OP, it would appear to me that the problem lies with how you teach mathematics rather than what you teach of it. You could also consider dropping the bar to let people graduate. PS. I find it hilarious that she should remark that "better" teaching of mathematics might help people to generate improved political opinion and social analysis. My blood boils when I read this kind of degenerate folly in a good newspaper. PPS. You so called social scientists have done enough damage to society already. It is an affront to justice that it is you attacking us, when it should be us attacking you. Go look at the achievements of each of our disciplines and tell me that teaching science is a bad idea, whilst focusing on social sciences is a good one. Go on. Go on now. What? What do you mean that's an unfair comparison? Go suck a fucking tailpipe. The author of the article is a social scientist. But I'm the OP and I'm not a social scientist. I majored in math at university. | ||
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Kontys
Finland659 Posts
On July 29 2012 22:31 paralleluniverse wrote: The author of the article is a social scientist. But I'm the OP and I'm not a social scientist. I majored in math at university. Sorry, my bad. | ||
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Papulatus
United States669 Posts
To learn algebra in time for college math requires you to begin in freshman year of high school. Honestly, who here had any idea what they wanted to do with their life at 15? I'm 19 and still clueless, yet I think I want to do something with a STEM field. To allow 15 year olds to not take algebra just because they don't feel like it is extremely dangerous. We shouldn't be teaching less higher mathematics, we should be teaching more higher mathematics. The system in the U.S. right now is a complete disgrace. The way math is taught and introduced to the students is the problem here. To see what my sister in 7th grade is learning in math makes no sense to me. These kids should begin learning algebra in 5-8th grade and have the majority of the students done with algebra 1 in 8th grade. All thats needed for algebra is arithmatic. This method would cultivate young minds to push more into jobs that matter. With the amount of unemployed graduates with philosophy and journalism degrees, all the country should be rising up, asking for better math education for students. Math is what opens the gateway to jobs that pay. Jobs that you exsist. And yet this author wants to graduate more people with insignificant degrees. This article is very confusing. | ||
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