On November 13 2012 07:42 sc2superfan101 wrote: not to mention that there is a very real reason why people put their money in offshore accounts and not here, and contrary to popular belief, it isn't because they are greedy and unpatriotic.
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense.
Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics.
how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted?
'wasted'
Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock.
I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else.
obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted?
Just because they perceive that putting the money here is a net loss for them in no way guarantees that they perceive their money as being wasted. I don't see how that follows.
Indeed, I perceive that having my money in the United States instead of an off-shore account is a net loss for me; that does not mean I think my money is being wasted.
well obviously they feel as though the net-loss is not balanced by any gain, and therefore would be wasted.
if they thought it was worth it, they would put their money here. things that aren't worth the cost are usually defined as "waste"
Under this framework selfishness with money is literally impossible. If someone believes they should keep 100% of their money because it's not balanced by any gain (as in 0% tax rates, 0% charitable giving, 0% anything) then they are not selfish under your set of definitions. That's just not a good model for attributing motives to human behavior.
Of course, whether selfishness is inherently bad is another kettle of fish. Some selfishness is probably good-not giving random strangers your wallet, for example, is selfish but good.
On November 13 2012 07:42 sc2superfan101 wrote: not to mention that there is a very real reason why people put their money in offshore accounts and not here, and contrary to popular belief, it isn't because they are greedy and unpatriotic.
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense.
Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics.
how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted?
'wasted'
Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock.
I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else.
obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted?
Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it.
If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish!
Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself.
edit: I didn't say anything about selfish, I said that it is not greedy to not want your money to be wasted.
edit 2: it hurts them to keep their money here, so why is it not selfish for the rest of us to demand that they do so?
On November 13 2012 07:42 sc2superfan101 wrote: not to mention that there is a very real reason why people put their money in offshore accounts and not here, and contrary to popular belief, it isn't because they are greedy and unpatriotic.
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense.
Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics.
how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted?
'wasted'
Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock.
I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else.
obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted?
Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it.
If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish!
Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself.
edit: I didn't say anything about selfish, I said that it is not greedy to not want your money to be wasted.
It is selfish (and greedy, and unpatriotic) to keep more property and wealth for yourself than the collective in a democratic society has asked that you keep. Even if they ask for more of it than you think you should give.
By avoiding taxes by using offshore accounts, you are directly engaging in keeping more property and wealth for yourself than you would in ordinary accounts.
On November 13 2012 07:42 sc2superfan101 wrote: not to mention that there is a very real reason why people put their money in offshore accounts and not here, and contrary to popular belief, it isn't because they are greedy and unpatriotic.
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense.
Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics.
how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted?
'wasted'
Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock.
I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else.
obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted?
Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it.
If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish!
Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself.
It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed.
Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though.
Actually you're just jerking off with a semantics magazine. You said 'offshore account'. The reasonable expectation was you were talking about hiding income from the government, thereby evading taxes you should have paid.
If you meant, "Some prefer to send their money to tax shelters outside of America, which is a gray area but legal", no one would have said boo.
it's basically free riding on the rest of the public. if 50% of the economic flow pays no taxes, the other half has to effectively pay double or cut services. those services support the same customers and services that businesses enjoy.
not to mention a disproportionate number of these loopholes are only useful for big scale operations. small fries and innovative firms get no break.
On November 13 2012 08:00 oneofthem wrote: yea the tax code should be changed. we are talking about the perverse incentive to flow money into shadow banking after that change.
it should be changed to punish the rich for putting their money in off-shore accounts, no?
Sir, the way you argue is... Very irritating. Firstly you seem to assume that everyone agrees and are against you (Given your positions making Glen Bech look like Castro, you are probably right though). Moreover you use the most nationalistic rhetorics I have long seen without actually wanting to admit that you are just shouting "get off my lawn!". Positions like "Get your own account on the Cayman Islands." are absurd. It is tax fraud to move money abroad to avoid having to pay taxes, wether you live in US, EU or CW.
On November 13 2012 08:16 Probe1 wrote: Actually you're just jerking off with a semantics magazine. You said 'offshore account'. The reasonable expectation was you were talking about hiding income from the government, thereby evading taxes you should have paid.
If you meant, "Some prefer to send their money to tax shelters outside of America, which is a gray area but legal", no one would have said boo.
Btw tax shelters are greedy. Don't even.
Actually funneling money though off shore accounts to get though some loop holes in order to lower your overall tax burden is common practice esp by companies. It's not tax evasion which is illegal, it's just morally corrupt tax avoidance which is legal but shitty, because the loop holes were mostly put in place by those who lobbied for such loop holes, ie those with money.
It depends what tax avoidance we're talking about. Clearly some, like retirement accounts, are completely legitimate. Others are illegal (evasion) and others are ambiguous. "Offshore accounts" can be both appropriate and inappropriate. It really depends on the details and exactly what we're discussing.
tax evasion discussed here is moving money outside of the sovereign reach. that's like, the most basic definition of tax evasion from a functional point of view.
it's different from saying, the tax rate in this particular market is high so we are not doing actual business there. that kind of loss is a legit deadweight loss. the thing about moving the money you already got by doing business out of sight is tax evasion.
On November 13 2012 07:42 sc2superfan101 wrote: not to mention that there is a very real reason why people put their money in offshore accounts and not here, and contrary to popular belief, it isn't because they are greedy and unpatriotic.
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense.
Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics.
how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted?
'wasted'
Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock.
I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else.
obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted?
Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it.
If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish!
Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself.
edit: I didn't say anything about selfish, I said that it is not greedy to not want your money to be wasted.
edit 2: it hurts them to keep their money here, so why is it not selfish for the rest of us to demand that they do so?
Do you somehow think rich people become rich in a vacuum...?
On November 13 2012 07:42 sc2superfan101 wrote: not to mention that there is a very real reason why people put their money in offshore accounts and not here, and contrary to popular belief, it isn't because they are greedy and unpatriotic.
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense.
Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics.
how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted?
'wasted'
Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock.
I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else.
obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted?
Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it.
If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish!
Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself.
edit: I didn't say anything about selfish, I said that it is not greedy to not want your money to be wasted.
edit 2: it hurts them to keep their money here, so why is it not selfish for the rest of us to demand that they do so?
Do you somehow think rich people become rich in a vacuum...?
Remember “Mitt Romney was born on third base and spent his entire life thinking he hit a triple.”
Comeon - stashing your money somewhere your country can't access it is definitely wrong. It might not be illegal, but so what? Our laws don't and can't cover right and wrong. It would be like having a law against adultery. It's wrong because you are trying not to pay your fair share, and doing it through the complexity of the international system.
It seems even our MP's agree with this, despite their love of cosying up to big business.
(extract from current grilling of Amazon, Google and Starbucks over tax avoidance by MP's): Like the other executives, Mr Brittin insisted that nothing his employer did was illegal, prompting the committee chair, Ms Hodge, to say: "We're not accusing you of being illegal, we're accusing you of being immoral."
On November 13 2012 07:11 sc2superfan101 wrote: so if liberals agree that taxing the shit out of cigarettes and fast-food will discourage those behaviors, why don't they apply that logic to the economy as a whole?
it is self-evident that cutting taxes, on any group, will stimulate the economy.
Because the two have nothing to do with each other. Do you make money by buying cigarettes?
On November 13 2012 08:24 oneofthem wrote: tax evasion discussed here is moving money outside of the sovereign reach. that's like, the most basic definition of tax evasion from a functional point of view.
it's different from saying, the tax rate in this particular market is high so we are not doing actual business there. that kind of loss is a legit deadweight loss. the thing about moving the money you already got by doing business out of sight is tax evasion.
Ok. Not all offshore accounts are beyond the sovereign's reach, but since you are drawing that distinction I'm fine with it.
On November 13 2012 07:42 sc2superfan101 wrote: not to mention that there is a very real reason why people put their money in offshore accounts and not here, and contrary to popular belief, it isn't because they are greedy and unpatriotic.
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense.
Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics.
how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted?
'wasted'
Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock.
I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else.
obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted?
Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it.
If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish!
Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself.
It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed.
Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though.
of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy.
whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them.
and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money.
On November 13 2012 07:42 sc2superfan101 wrote: not to mention that there is a very real reason why people put their money in offshore accounts and not here, and contrary to popular belief, it isn't because they are greedy and unpatriotic.
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense.
Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics.
how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted?
'wasted'
Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock.
I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else.
obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted?
Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it.
If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish!
Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself.
edit: I didn't say anything about selfish, I said that it is not greedy to not want your money to be wasted.
edit 2: it hurts them to keep their money here, so why is it not selfish for the rest of us to demand that they do so?
Do you somehow think rich people become rich in a vacuum...?
are you suggesting that they have broken some contractual agreement with their workers or government?
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense.
Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics.
how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted?
'wasted'
Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock.
I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else.
obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted?
Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it.
If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish!
Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic.
it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself.
edit: I didn't say anything about selfish, I said that it is not greedy to not want your money to be wasted.
edit 2: it hurts them to keep their money here, so why is it not selfish for the rest of us to demand that they do so?
Do you somehow think rich people become rich in a vacuum...?
are you suggesting that they have broken some contractual agreement with their workers or government?
How did you get that from what he.... sigh... nvm.
EPT
