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On November 13 2012 08:40 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 08:30 Tarot wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:51 Souma wrote:
[quote]
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic. it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. edit: I didn't say anything about selfish, I said that it is not greedy to not want your money to be wasted. edit 2: it hurts them to keep their money here, so why is it not selfish for the rest of us to demand that they do so? Do you somehow think rich people become rich in a vacuum...? Remember “Mitt Romney was born on third base and spent his entire life thinking he hit a triple.”
That's the fatal conceit. Only the poor work for their pay, the rich were born into it and don't have to do an honest day's work. Demonize the rich, tax the rich, penalize the rich for their largesse. This make sense because the way I spend my money is infinitely better than the way they spend their money. Political demagoguery and class warfare at its best!
For that matter, I'd like to see these righteous individuals give $4 million dollars to charity (29% of his income). Oh the uncaring, miserly rich. Those unpatriotic, uncaring rich. Those tax-dodging, unpatriotic, uncaring rich. I wonder what level of capital flight it'll take before the first true believer realizes how much they've hamstrung the poor people they profess to be helping (by taxing the rich for vast welfare and healthcare programs).
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On November 13 2012 09:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 08:13 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:51 Souma wrote:
[quote]
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic. it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed. Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though. of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy. whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them. and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money.
"I will never understand why it is greed to want to keep the money you earned, but not greed to want to take somebody else's money" - Thomas Sowell
I don't get it either.
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On November 13 2012 09:47 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 08:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:30 Tarot wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. edit: I didn't say anything about selfish, I said that it is not greedy to not want your money to be wasted. edit 2: it hurts them to keep their money here, so why is it not selfish for the rest of us to demand that they do so? Do you somehow think rich people become rich in a vacuum...? Remember “Mitt Romney was born on third base and spent his entire life thinking he hit a triple.” That's the fatal conceit. Only the poor work for their pay, the rich were born into it and don't have to do an honest day's work. Demonize the rich, tax the rich, penalize the rich for their largesse. This make sense because the way I spend my money is infinitely better than the way they spend their money. Political demagoguery and class warfare at its best! For that matter, I'd like to see these righteous individuals give $4 million dollars to charity (29% of his income). Oh the uncaring, miserly rich. Those unpatriotic, uncaring rich. Those tax-dodging, unpatriotic, uncaring rich. I wonder what level of capital flight it'll take before the first true believer realizes how much they've hamstrung the poor people they profess to be helping (by taxing the rich for vast welfare and healthcare programs).
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
And try not to make posts like this again.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 13 2012 09:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 08:13 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:51 Souma wrote:
[quote]
So... dodging taxes is not greedy and unpatriotic? What? I mean, it's perfectly fine for you to say, "Well, I don't think it should be okay for the rich to be paying so much in taxes." It's another thing to say that tax evasion is not greedy and unpatriotic. it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed. Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though. of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy. whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them. and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money.
No, greed is not 'depriving someone of something they deserve.'
Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greed
We're not "punishing them for being greedy." Stop grabbing things from out of thin air. We are punishing them for not paying their due taxes.
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On November 13 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:20 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:30 Tarot wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. edit: I didn't say anything about selfish, I said that it is not greedy to not want your money to be wasted. edit 2: it hurts them to keep their money here, so why is it not selfish for the rest of us to demand that they do so? Do you somehow think rich people become rich in a vacuum...? are you suggesting that they have broken some contractual agreement with their workers or government? How did you get that from what he.... sigh... nvm.
because without that assumption his point is irrelevant. if they had help in creating that wealth, than they have the obligation to pay the contracted amount for that help and nothing more. once the contractual payment has been paid, there can be no more claim to their money or their results.
ex post facto is not fair play.
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On November 13 2012 09:52 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:13 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed. Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though. of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy. whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them. and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money. No, greed is not 'depriving someone of something they deserve.' Show nested quote +Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. We're not "punishing them for being greedy." Stop grabbing things from out of thin air. We are punishing them for not paying their due taxes.
the inordinate desire far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. (now we would have to have a semantics argument.)
do you have any evidence that they have not paid their legal share of taxes?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 13 2012 09:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 09:52 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:13 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed. Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though. of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy. whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them. and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money. No, greed is not 'depriving someone of something they deserve.' Show nested quote +Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.
We're not "punishing them for being greedy." Stop grabbing things from out of thin air. We are punishing them for not paying their due taxes. the inordinate desire far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. do you have any evidence that they have no payed their legal share of taxes?
What do I care if they pay their 'legal' share or not? That was never the argument and is irrelevant.
lol nice cherry-picking btw, not that it changes anything.
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On November 13 2012 10:01 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 09:52 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:13 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed. Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though. of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy. whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them. and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money. No, greed is not 'depriving someone of something they deserve.' Show nested quote +Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.
We're not "punishing them for being greedy." Stop grabbing things from out of thin air. We are punishing them for not paying their due taxes. the inordinate desire far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. do you have any evidence that they have no payed their legal share of taxes? What do I care if they pay their 'legal' share or not? That was never the argument and is irrelevant.
you said you were punishing them for not paying their due taxes. that can only be true if they have no paid what they are legally required to have paid. otherwise it is not due, at this point in time.
ex post facto is not fair play. you cannot turn around after that fact and say they haven't paid enough their due when they paid all the government asked from them.
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On November 13 2012 09:47 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 08:40 Probe1 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:30 Tarot wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. edit: I didn't say anything about selfish, I said that it is not greedy to not want your money to be wasted. edit 2: it hurts them to keep their money here, so why is it not selfish for the rest of us to demand that they do so? Do you somehow think rich people become rich in a vacuum...? Remember “Mitt Romney was born on third base and spent his entire life thinking he hit a triple.” That's the fatal conceit. Only the poor work for their pay, the rich were born into it and don't have to do an honest day's work. Demonize the rich, tax the rich, penalize the rich for their largesse. This make sense because the way I spend my money is infinitely better than the way they spend their money. Political demagoguery and class warfare at its best! For that matter, I'd like to see these righteous individuals give $4 million dollars to charity (29% of his income). Oh the uncaring, miserly rich. Those unpatriotic, uncaring rich. Those tax-dodging, unpatriotic, uncaring rich. I wonder what level of capital flight it'll take before the first true believer realizes how much they've hamstrung the poor people they profess to be helping (by taxing the rich for vast welfare and healthcare programs).
It's hardly saying that they don't have to do work. It's saying that they come in with an inherent advantage and have to do much less to reach a certain level of success. Do you deny that its easier to succeed with more resources than with less?
Either you're deliberately ignoring the difference in disposable income between the rich and the poor, or you're just ignorant. If I make half a million a year, I can get taxed 30% and have 350K a year. With that much, I could still live pretty well-- buy a new car and eat out everyday and take a high-class cruise to somewhere nice and still have money to put in the bank. If I make 50K and get taxed 30%, oh shit I only have 35K a year. I can meet rent and other obligations, buy food, and maybe put a few bucks away for a rainy day.
It really doesn't matter if the 30% is taxes or given to charity. 30% of income is significantly more for a poor person than a rich person because it cuts into non-disposable income. Interestingly, I believe its the so-called working poor or middle-class that give the highest % of their income to charity. Of course there's some rich people who give quite a bitto charity and they're good people, but there's a lot of stingy bastards.
I suggest you give this article a look.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/the-veil-of-opulence/
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
when labor is paying payroll, ss, sales tax etc. you get effective tax rate <10% for capital.
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Canada11387 Posts
On November 13 2012 10:03 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:01 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 09:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 09:52 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:13 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed. Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though. of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy. whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them. and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money. No, greed is not 'depriving someone of something they deserve.' Show nested quote +Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.
We're not "punishing them for being greedy." Stop grabbing things from out of thin air. We are punishing them for not paying their due taxes. the inordinate desire far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. do you have any evidence that they have no payed their legal share of taxes? What do I care if they pay their 'legal' share or not? That was never the argument and is irrelevant. you said you were punishing them for not paying their due taxes. that can only be true if they have no paid what they are legally required to have paid. otherwise it is not due, at this point in time. ex post facto is not fair play. you cannot turn around after that fact and say they haven't paid enough their due when they paid all the government asked from them.
We're making great use of what they are legally required. But if they've rigged the system to create a series of legal loopholes that allows them to squirrel away money here and there, then that would be considered legal. But should it be legal? Is it a system that lends itself in favour the wealthy and powerful keeping themselves amongst the wealthy and powerful. Pushing into oligarchal territory. If the loop-holes were closed, it would make their actions illegal. The current legal situation may not be desired legal situation.
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Let's just pay attention to California over the next few years. The inmates have finally taken full control of the asylum there (democrats have a supermajority). Here's American liberalism's big chance to operate uncontested on a fairly large scale.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 13 2012 10:08 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just pay attention to California over the next few years. The inmates have finally taken full control of the asylum there (democrats have a supermajority). Here's American liberalism's big chance to operate uncontested on a fairly large scale.
welcome back
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 13 2012 10:03 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:01 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 09:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 09:52 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:13 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed. Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though. of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy. whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them. and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money. No, greed is not 'depriving someone of something they deserve.' Show nested quote +Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.
We're not "punishing them for being greedy." Stop grabbing things from out of thin air. We are punishing them for not paying their due taxes. the inordinate desire far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. do you have any evidence that they have no payed their legal share of taxes? What do I care if they pay their 'legal' share or not? That was never the argument and is irrelevant. you said you were punishing them for not paying their due taxes. that can only be true if they have no paid what they are legally required to have paid. otherwise it is not due, at this point in time. ex post facto is not fair play. you cannot turn around after that fact and say they haven't paid enough their due when they paid all the government asked from them.
Yes I said their 'due' taxes, aka the taxes they should be paying if the system was to work how it should be working and not how it currently is (you know, the system in its current corrupt state).
Once again what the hell does this matter at all? You asked why taxing the rich does not create a burden on the economy. I don't care whether it's fair or unfair, legal or illegal, greedy or not greedy. Seeing as how you're so obsessed over the issue I can only take it that you care about what it is categorized under and your argument is evidently shallow.
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On November 13 2012 08:16 radiatoren wrote:
Positions like "Get your own account on the Cayman Islands." are absurd. It is tax fraud to move money abroad to avoid having to pay taxes, wether you live in US, EU or CW.
If this was true, there'd a lot of rich people in prison. Except they're not. The US did a good job in enacting FACTA and I hope it will clamp down on this.
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On November 13 2012 10:07 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:03 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 10:01 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 09:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 09:52 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:13 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed. Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though. of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy. whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them. and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money. No, greed is not 'depriving someone of something they deserve.' Show nested quote +Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.
We're not "punishing them for being greedy." Stop grabbing things from out of thin air. We are punishing them for not paying their due taxes. the inordinate desire far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. do you have any evidence that they have no payed their legal share of taxes? What do I care if they pay their 'legal' share or not? That was never the argument and is irrelevant. you said you were punishing them for not paying their due taxes. that can only be true if they have no paid what they are legally required to have paid. otherwise it is not due, at this point in time. ex post facto is not fair play. you cannot turn around after that fact and say they haven't paid enough their due when they paid all the government asked from them. We're making great use of what they are legally required. But if they've rigged the system to create a series of legal loopholes that allows them to squirrel away money here and there, then that would be considered legal. But should it be legal? Is it a system that lends itself in favour the wealthy and powerful keeping themselves amongst the wealthy and powerful. Pushing into oligarchal territory. If the loop-holes were closed, it would make their actions illegal. The current legal situation may not be desired legal situation.
the question, in my opinion, would then be what possibly could have persuaded these people to do something like that? I refuse to accept the premise that they are all just evil, greedy, bastards who want to screw over the poor. it seems much more realistic to me that they are worried about losing an unjust portion of their wealth, for unjust causes.
therefore, I would think the answer would be to assure them, through tax reform, that we are not going to take an unjust portion of their income, and in fact will allow them to keep as much as humanly possible, taking only what is vitally necessary to ensure the security of the states and people. if we simply eliminate the loopholes and even then raise taxes, then this will only encourage them to actually leave the economy completely. then we would be faced with a kind of "Atlas Shrugged" situation where we either outlaw them leaving the country with their wealth, or we let them go and lose all of the benefit of that wealth. the first is tyranny and the second is anarchy.
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On November 13 2012 10:07 oneofthem wrote:
when labor is paying payroll, ss, sales tax etc. you get effective tax rate <10% for capital.
Can you explain that? None of those taxes listed are taxes on capital. I don't see how each are related to another.
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On November 13 2012 10:09 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:03 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 10:01 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 09:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 09:52 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:13 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed. Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though. of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy. whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them. and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money. No, greed is not 'depriving someone of something they deserve.' Show nested quote +Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.
We're not "punishing them for being greedy." Stop grabbing things from out of thin air. We are punishing them for not paying their due taxes. the inordinate desire far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. do you have any evidence that they have no payed their legal share of taxes? What do I care if they pay their 'legal' share or not? That was never the argument and is irrelevant. you said you were punishing them for not paying their due taxes. that can only be true if they have no paid what they are legally required to have paid. otherwise it is not due, at this point in time. ex post facto is not fair play. you cannot turn around after that fact and say they haven't paid enough their due when they paid all the government asked from them. Yes I said their 'due' taxes, aka the taxes they should be paying if the system was to work how it should be working and not how it currently is (you know, the system in its current corrupt state). Once again what the hell does this matter at all? You asked why taxing the rich does not create a burden on the economy. I don't care whether it's fair or unfair, legal or illegal, greedy or not greedy. Seeing as how you're so obsessed over the issue I can only take it that you care about what it is categorized under and your argument is evidently shallow.
the point is that you want to punish them for the system being "corrupt".
and I would be perfectly willing to go back to a discussion about whether taxing the rich more than we do now, or even at the level that we do now, is good for the economy. the conversation kind of just naturally evolved in this direction (probably because it is self-evident that taxes are always a net loss on productivity)
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Canada11387 Posts
On November 13 2012 10:12 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:07 Falling wrote:On November 13 2012 10:03 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 10:01 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 09:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 09:52 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:13 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed. Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though. of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy. whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them. and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money. No, greed is not 'depriving someone of something they deserve.' Show nested quote +Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.
We're not "punishing them for being greedy." Stop grabbing things from out of thin air. We are punishing them for not paying their due taxes. the inordinate desire far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. do you have any evidence that they have no payed their legal share of taxes? What do I care if they pay their 'legal' share or not? That was never the argument and is irrelevant. you said you were punishing them for not paying their due taxes. that can only be true if they have no paid what they are legally required to have paid. otherwise it is not due, at this point in time. ex post facto is not fair play. you cannot turn around after that fact and say they haven't paid enough their due when they paid all the government asked from them. We're making great use of what they are legally required. But if they've rigged the system to create a series of legal loopholes that allows them to squirrel away money here and there, then that would be considered legal. But should it be legal? Is it a system that lends itself in favour the wealthy and powerful keeping themselves amongst the wealthy and powerful. Pushing into oligarchal territory. If the loop-holes were closed, it would make their actions illegal. The current legal situation may not be desired legal situation. the question, in my opinion, would then be what possibly could have persuaded these people to do something like that? I refuse to accept the premise that they are all just evil, greedy, bastards who want to screw over the poor. it seems much more realistic to me that they are worried about losing an unjust portion of their wealth, for unjust causes. therefore, I would think the answer would be to assure them, through tax reform, that we are not going to take an unjust portion of their income, and in fact will allow them to keep as much as humanly possible, taking only what is vitally necessary to ensure the security of the states and people. if we simply eliminate the loopholes and even then raise taxes, then this will only encourage them to actually leave the economy completely. then we would be faced with a kind of "Atlas Shrugged" situation where we either outlaw them leaving the country with their wealth, or we let them go and lose all of the benefit of that wealth. the first is tyranny and the second is anarchy.
What is just taxes? Do you start from the premise that taxes are by defintion, theft? Because then we have a long way to go before we can find common ground. How do you re-assure anyone that there taxes are being well spent? The fact is only the rich and powerful have the option to opt out of the tax system because they don't agree with what is going on. That's rather why we have elections to hold governments accountable to spend it on the things they said they were going to spend it on- unless special interests cut in and create a bunch of loop-holes. No one else has the option just sit on their money if they don't agree with where the government is going on. Government isn't a charitable organization for the middle class.
Are the rich greedy bastards? No, probably not. But they like everyone else look to their own interests. The difference is many can have the ear of government to actually accomplish their own interests and create said loopholes.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 13 2012 10:15 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:09 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 10:03 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 10:01 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 09:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 09:52 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:13 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:07 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 08:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 08:03 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 Souma wrote:On November 13 2012 07:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
it is not tax evasion to put your money in an off-shore account, as it is not currently illegal to do so. it's common sense. Whether it's common sense or not does not make it any less greedy or unpatriotic lol. I'm not going to argue over semantics. how is it greedy and unpatriotic to want to keep your money from being wasted? 'wasted' Give me a break. Is there anything you want to contribute to this conversation that has more than two hues? If not then I will gladly step back because this is not something I wish to argue over with someone who mistakes the sky for a rock. I'm thinking shades of grey here. the perception among these people is obviously that putting their money here will lead to a net loss for them, or they wouldn't put their money somewhere else. obviously their perception is that it is being wasted, so why is it unpatriotic to not want your money to be wasted? Listen to yourself. It's a net loss for them so they won't do it - that's EXACTLY what greedy is, and in turn it's unpatriotic because you screw over many Americans because of it. If I refuse to give you my cupcake because it would be a net loss for me, that's me being selfish! Argue that it is not fair for them to pay more taxes. Argue that tax hikes will not be better for the economy. But don't you dare say not paying taxes is anything less than greedy and unpatriotic. it is not greedy to keep your cupcake because you want to enjoy it. otherwise it would be greedy to ever keep any money or wealth or property for yourself. It is greedy. That is the definition of greed. Whether you agree it's a bad thing, a good thing, unnecessary or necessary is a different thing all together. But, by any definition, it is greed. Now, the question is, are you willing to stand by your principles even if you acknowledge that it is 'greed'? Because honestly, what does it matter what we categorize it? Do you need some arbitrary self-assurance that it is not greed for you to stand tall? If so then your argument is shallow at best. I doubt this is the case, though. of course it's not greed. greed would be to deprive someone of something they deserve to satisfy a want. depriving myself of something I deserve so that they can have something they want is charitable, sometimes, but to not do so is not greedy. whether it's greedy or not is irrelevant. my whole point is that you want to punish them for some perceived greed on their part. my argument is that 1) it is not greedy at all, and 2) even if it was greedy, it's not your place to punish them. and further, by your definition of greed, it is extremely greedy for you (or anyone else) to demand their money. No, greed is not 'depriving someone of something they deserve.' Show nested quote +Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.
We're not "punishing them for being greedy." Stop grabbing things from out of thin air. We are punishing them for not paying their due taxes. the inordinate desire far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. do you have any evidence that they have no payed their legal share of taxes? What do I care if they pay their 'legal' share or not? That was never the argument and is irrelevant. you said you were punishing them for not paying their due taxes. that can only be true if they have no paid what they are legally required to have paid. otherwise it is not due, at this point in time. ex post facto is not fair play. you cannot turn around after that fact and say they haven't paid enough their due when they paid all the government asked from them. Yes I said their 'due' taxes, aka the taxes they should be paying if the system was to work how it should be working and not how it currently is (you know, the system in its current corrupt state). Once again what the hell does this matter at all? You asked why taxing the rich does not create a burden on the economy. I don't care whether it's fair or unfair, legal or illegal, greedy or not greedy. Seeing as how you're so obsessed over the issue I can only take it that you care about what it is categorized under and your argument is evidently shallow. the point is that you want to punish them for the system being "corrupt". and I would be perfectly willing to go back to a discussion about whether taxing the rich more than we do now, or even at the level that we do now, is good for the economy. the conversation kind of just naturally evolved in this direction (probably because it is self-evident that taxes are always a net loss on productivity)
It's not exactly "punishment" if we merely close all these loopholes they lobbied for in the first place, but if you want to think of it as "punishment" go ahead.
It's obviously not self-evident that taxes are always a net loss on productivity. Your world is so black and white. I'm not going to get into this discussion. If you're so curious you can scroll through paralleluniverse's many posts on how trickle-down economics is a giant farce. Many others have demonstrated the same thing over and over again throughout this thread. Take the information, don't take it, I don't really care, but I'm not going to rehash the same ol' tired arguments.
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