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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 04 2012 12:26 red_b wrote: And I swear if this guy keeps his carry license through this I will be incredibly raged. assuming he acted in self defense, what basis would they have to take his license away? whats the point of having a gun if you cant use it in self defense? | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
Starting an altercation when armed with a deadly weapon is significantly more serious than doing so without. In fact, it should be grounds to take away your license as you have demonstrated that you are a threat to society. Zimmerman admitted to following and approaching Martin. Ergo, because the nature of the first act was with the intent to treat Martin as a hostile entity, he began the altercation. | ||
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woody60707
United States1863 Posts
On April 04 2012 12:26 red_b wrote: ... And I swear if this guy keeps his carry license through this I will be incredibly raged. Why should he. You generally don't lose your rights in this nation unless you are found guilty of a crime. And the right to bear arms is a constitutional right. You might as while say you think this guy should lose his right to free speech or his right to vote. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On April 04 2012 12:49 red_b wrote: Because as a concealed weapons carrier you are held to a higher standard. Is that a fact or how you think it should be ? | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 04 2012 12:49 red_b wrote: Because as a concealed weapons carrier you are held to a higher standard. Starting an altercation when armed with a deadly weapon is significantly more serious than doing so without. In fact, it should be grounds to take away your license as you have demonstrated that you are a threat to society. Zimmerman admitted to following and approaching Martin. Ergo, because the nature of the first act was with the intent to treat Martin as a hostile entity, he began the altercation. im not following you. assuming he did nothing illegal, why would you take his license away? | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On April 04 2012 10:13 Zorkmid wrote: From their twitter. NeighborhoodWatch @USAonWatch Neighborhood Watch is based on the premise that the role of watch groups is only to serve as the eyes and ears of law enforcement NeighborhoodWatch @USAonWatch At no time, do we advocate any intervention actions by any watch group or individual #neighborhoodwatch I haven't heard any version of the story where George doesn't intervene. Well I've looked on the USA on Watch website and the "Twin Lakes Homeowner's Association" (Twin Lakes being the 'gated community' where the incident took place) isn't listed, so anything USA on Watch may have to say isn't anything that George Zimmerman was bound to. Now whether USA on Watch's take on the role of watch groups is appropriate or not is another question, it sounds fine but what they are saying in those tweets is more for the safety of the neighborhood watchmen, since your typical volunteer is some flabby guy in his mid-50s who would not be in a very safe spot if he confronted some suspicious character. Now this next paragraph isn't directed at Zorkmid at all it's just a general comment. As far as the known facts go Zimmerman was entirely within his rights as a private citizen to follow Martin and ask him what he was doing. Martin was entirely within his rights to ignore Zimmerman and then ask Zimmerman why he was following him around. Saying Zimmerman was stalking or harassing Martin is a joke, his conduct doesn't rise to that level legally in any way. The key facts are mostly still unknown and those are exactly how the physical altercation started and what the chain of events in that altercation were. The only thing we know about the fight is that Zimmerman says Martin was on top of him at one point and that's backed up by witnesses. Someone was yelling for help, Zimmerman says it was him, others say it wasn't, two 'experts' who have no authority or credibility (there's no way they'd ever be put on the stand) say it wasn't Zimmerman based on dubious reasoning but that doesn't mean it was Zimmerman. At some point after that Martin was shot. How it started, how they ended up on the ground, exactly what happened in the few seconds before Martin was shot, we don't know. Those facts will determine what Zimmerman will be charged with, if anything. Because as a concealed weapons carrier you are held to a higher standard. Starting an altercation when armed with a deadly weapon is significantly more serious than doing so without. In fact, it should be grounds to take away your license as you have demonstrated that you are a threat to society. Zimmerman admitted to following and approaching Martin. Ergo, because the nature of the first act was with the intent to treat Martin as a hostile entity, he began the altercation. That's just nonsense. Zimmerman did not start an altercation by following Martin or asking him what he was doing. You start an altercation by confronting a person with the intent to cause a dispute. Can you prove Zimmerman wanted to start a dispute with Martin? No. Challenging someone you find acting suspiciously to explain and stop their behavior is not an invitation for them to argue with you about it. It's a declaration of your opinion and also your resolve to end that behavior. No one, neighborhood watchman or police officer or unadorned citizen, wants a dispute to arise out of that. They want compliance without dispute. "Treating Martin as a hostile entity" is a ridiculous choice of words, "suspicious" would be more accurate. But challenging someone as acting suspiciously doesn't begin an altercation, the allegedly suspicious person would have to respond in an antagonistic manner verbally for there to be an altercation. Unless you were antagonistic yourself in challenging that person, "What are you doing here?" is not antagonistic. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 04 2012 13:47 Kaitlin wrote: To add to DeepElem's post, it's important to keep in mind that all these "do not pursue" issues are about liability. The police were merely protecting themselves from a lawsuit in case something happened and someone argued that Zimmerman was pursuing on behalf of the police department. It's the same thing with those neighborhood watch groups. They make it clear that their position does not call for any pursuit because otherwise lawyers could argue that the neighborhood is liable for anything that an individual watchman does wrong. It's all about deep pockets and legal liability and covering your ass from lawsuits. The fact is, Zimmerman, and all others have a right to stand outside and observe, and approach people and talk to them. I can assure you, if that dispatch hadn't said "We don't need you to do that", there would be lawyers lining up to sue the Sanford Police Department for "authorizing" Zimmerman's actions. The city would have to pay and pay dearly. As it is now, attorneys are not able to attribute Zimmerman's actions to the City. well, apparently, they are attributing his activities to the homeowner's association because the HOA apparently didnt cover its ass well enough. ;-) | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
Family of fatally shot Atlanta teen seek arrest The family of a 17-year-old fatally shot at an Atlanta apartment complex -- trying to draw parallels to the Trayvon Martin case in Florida -- called Tuesday for the arrest of a security guard who killed their son. The guard and authorities say the shooting was justified. Canard Arnold was shot in the back on Dec. 31. Christopher Chestnut, an attorney for Arnold's parents, said the case is similar to the Feb. 26 shooting of the 17-year-old Martin in a town house community in Sanford, Fla., by George Zimmerman, the complex's neighborhood watch volunteer. Zimmerman has not been arrested. The Martin shooting has been labeled as "vigilante justice" and has ignited a national firestorm fueled by accusations of racism. "This is very Trayvon Martin-like," Chestnut said. He referred to Arnold's shooter, Christopher Hambrick, as "a rogue, vigilante security guard." "He sees Mr. Arnold running down the street and, like a predator, tracks him down," Chestnut said. In a telephone interview with The Associated Press, Hambrick emphatically dismissed any attempt to draw parallels between the two shootings. "With the Trayvon Martin thing, I know they think their son was in the same predicament," Hambrick said. "Canard Arnold was not Trayvon Martin ... I'm not like Zimmerman. I know when to use my gun." Authorities said Arnold, who was black, was engaged in a gunfight with another man, 22-year-old, Anthony Hines, on the night of Dec. 30. Hambrick, who is white, was working as a security guard in a nearby apartment complex when he drove up and encountered the two men. Hambrick confirmed authorities' version of events, adding that he had been working at a nearby complex for five months and was en route to a nearby convenience store when he observed the confrontation between Arnold and Hines. "Believing that gunfire was aimed in his direction, the security guard fired shots, shooting and killing the victim who died on the scene with a weapon just inches away from his hand," Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard said in a statement issued Tuesday. "At this time, it appears to us the actions of the security guard were justified. If subsequent evidence reveals intentions to the contrary, as in every case, the District Attorney's Office will be led by the facts." Atlanta Police Department Spokesman Carlos Campos issued a similar statement, saying that "a weapon was found near Arnold and four rounds were discovered to have been discharged." Hines was arrested and charged with felony murder "for his role as an active shooter in the gunfight leading to Arnold's shooting," according to Campos' statement. Howard said Hines was indicted Friday by a Fulton County grand jury. Chestnut offers a different version of events. While he said a gun was found near Arnold, he did not confirm whether the gun belonged to the teen. Chestnut also said Arnold was running away after an altercation with another man at the time he was shot, and that the teen did not confront or threaten the security guard. He added that Hambrick was not employed by the apartment complex where the shooting occurred. Hambrick maintained that he did not ask to be put in a situation to shoot Arnold. He said he initially thought of trying to help Arnold when he saw Hines open fire. "I didn't know he had a firearm," Hambrick said, referring to Arnold. "When he pulled it out, there was nothing I could do but warn him. He didn't heed the warning." Hambrick said he was not disciplined by Shepperson, but left the company in February and is now employed with another private security company. http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2012/04/03/family_of_fatally_shot_atlanta_teen_seek_arrest/ | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
two guys were involved in a gunfight, a security guard walks by and shoots one of them, the family wants... the security guard arrested? when their son was literally shooting at another man and was found dead with a gun in his hands? what in the blue fuck... | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 04 2012 15:46 gtrsrs wrote: am i reading this atlanta story right? two guys were involved in a gunfight, a security guard walks by and shoots one of them, the family wants... the security guard arrested? when their son was literally shooting at another man and was found dead with a gun in his hands? what in the blue fuck... think thats bad. another case in chicago i think that they say is like trayvon, was a black guy who was shot 28 times by white officers. the guy who was shot apparently took a shot at the cops, and he was charged for attempted murder. he survived the shots. they are saying that is another "trayvon" case. such bullshit. no real news out there i guess. edit here it is http://www.suntimes.com/news/11680969-452/mary-mitchell-chicagos-own-trayvon-like-scandal-faces-sentencing-this-week.html | ||
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Gorguts
Canada254 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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woody60707
United States1863 Posts
On April 04 2012 17:24 Gorguts wrote: how can you defend this murderer there is NO EVIDENCE at all in his favor, his story has so many holes, this is absolute bullshit. i can't believe people type out 5 paragraph essay's defending this guy. the mental disease of conservativism is tooo strong it's got a stranglehold on you people.... But Zimmerman is a card carrying Democratic. | ||
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Kaonis
United States243 Posts
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HeyJude
United States157 Posts
On April 04 2012 17:24 Gorguts wrote: how can you defend this murderer there is NO EVIDENCE at all in his favor, his story has so many holes, this is absolute bullshit. i can't believe people type out 5 paragraph essay's defending this guy. the mental disease of conservativism is tooo strong it's got a stranglehold on you people.... User was warned for this post No evidence in his favor? What evidence is against him? I saw a police video in terrible quality taken hours after he was cleaned up that's supposed to show he doesn't have injuries? The only witness said Trayvon was attacking him. The 911 tapes were of Zimmerman yelling for help. I find it amusing the picture the media keeps using of Trayvon was 3 years old. They leave out the pictures of him with gold teeth and holding up both birds. His twitter handle was "No_limit_nigga." Funny how none of this made it onto the mainstream media's coverage. Looks like a gangster, acts like a gangster...yeah | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i39.tinypic.com/2ja7n5.jpg) An example of the natural grooves and dents of a skull that I've mentioned a couple times. | ||
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Felnarion
442 Posts
We're disputing why you're so sure that's what is pictured. Because some guy in House had them then Zimmerman must also? Could it not be his injury? Could he not have a groove AND a gash on another spot in his head. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On April 05 2012 01:56 Felnarion wrote: No one is disputing that some people have grooves on their head in various configurations. We're disputing why you're so sure that's what is pictured. Because some guy in House had them then Zimmerman must also? Could it not be his injury? Could he not have a groove AND a gash on another spot in his head. Never said I'm sure that's what it is. In fact this is what I said: On March 30 2012 10:27 BlackJack wrote: Some people have a very pronounced occipital bone that can make all kinds of groove or dent looks under the right lightning conditions. At 1:25 the officer in the video is looking very intently at the back of Zimmeran's head. Is he looking at something or a lack of something? I think the former is more often to be the case. I'm confident that better photos or video will eventually come to light. I wouldn't rush to judgement one way or the other for fear of looking like an idiot if I am proven wrong. It does look a lot like some kind of wound in the pic Romantic made, though. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
On April 04 2012 12:53 woody60707 wrote: Why should he. You generally don't lose your rights in this nation unless you are found guilty of a crime. And the right to bear arms is a constitutional right. You might as while say you think this guy should lose his right to free speech or his right to vote. people convicted of felonies or with mental problems are not allowed to posses firearms in most places in the US. like I said, guilty of murder or no, he is definitely guilty of stalking and intimidating because he admitted to it. he is a danger to society when armed with a deadly weapon. and you do understand that they took away Mitnick's ability to access a computer right? given how we communicate, they probably could not have done more to silence his right to speech bar cutting off his fingers and sewing his mouth shut. | ||
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