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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On March 29 2012 04:59 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 04:53 Kaitlin wrote:
I think whether in this thread or society as a whole needs to have a conversation about "community watch" type programs. There is a great deal of disagreement over whether Zimmerman was justified in 1) considering Trayvon suspicious, 2) following Trayvon, 3) questioning Trayvon or whether he should have simply ignored Trayvon in the first place. If community watch programs are there as a bit of a first line of defense against crime, then we should accept that simply ignoring Trayvon wouldn't be appropriate. To ignore Trayvon (other everyone else considered suspicious) would allow such individuals to make victims of the very community that the community watchman is trying to protect. I'm not saying Trayvon was going to do this, but we have to regard that in resolving whether Zimmerman's initial reaction to Trayvon was appropriate. To say Trayvon should have been left alone, seems to me to completely invalidate a community watch program. The fact is, police often respond to crime after it happens and rarely prevent anything, unless they happen upon something in progress. Zimmerman had already called the police and was on the phone with them, reporting what he felt was suspicious. What are we willing to accept, as a society, had he not pursued the suspicious individual and by the time the police had arrived, a house down the street had been burglarized, and occupants murdered ? Is that acceptable ? Is your society fine with accepting the fact that being a black youth in a hoodie is enough to be labeled a suspicious individual though? Because that seems like a big-ass step you skipped there. From what I can gather here, there was is no way a non-racist, sane human being would have considered Martin suspicious enough to follow.
Wait, let me get this straight.
Lets pretend you are a security guard, police officer, neighborhood watch, whatever. You have some form of responsibility for the safety and security of your general area. Your area of responsibility is clearly defined and has clear borders. You know everybody who lives inside the area. I think these are all fair inferences to make so far. Do you agree? He was elected watch captain by his neighbors, is responsible for a gated community, and goes door to door meeting the neighbors.
Crime stats show that in the very recent history this area he is responsible for has been robbed multiple times, by young black males even.
Now, you see somebody wandering around with hood up (obscuring the head which people do when planning or committing crimes.....as they also do when it is raining to keep themselves from getting too wet) but you do not know this person. This person is walking slowly and looking around. It does not look like he has a clear destination in mind, lost (as his girlfriend stated), or casing houses.
Now, you would not deem suspicious a person you do not recognize and know does not live there in a crime prone area inside a gated community. Not one who was walking slowly, looking around, with no discernible end point? The fact of the matter is that there is far more information available to a person making the judgement call aside from "black kid wearing hoodie" In fact, Z-man didn't even know Martin was black when he made the 911 call to report a person looking suspicious.
Damn good thing you aren't neighborhood watch or the police.
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I thought he was a "self-appointed" neighborhood watchmen? Quite a significant difference in what that implies about his "responsibility".
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On April 04 2012 03:40 whatwhatanut wrote:
I thought he was a "self-appointed" neighborhood watchmen? Quite a significant difference in what that implies about his "responsibility".
all neighborhood watchmen are volunteers. i have never heard of anything different. so, what is your point?
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so people kept saying that it took the police three days to notify the family. apparently, the father went to sleep because he thought his kid went to the movies, and when he called the police the next morning, they notified him.
Trayvon Martin: Before the world heard the cries
Tracy Martin had been looking for his son Trayvon since the night before. He went to bed figuring the teen must have gone to the movies and turned off his phone. When Trayvon still wasn't home in the morning, Martin called the police.
After a flurry of phone calls back and forth, an officer told him a police unit was on the way. "So I went outside waiting for Trayvon to show up," Martin said.
Instead of one squad car with his son in the backseat, three vehicles pulled up: a police cruiser, an unmarked sedan and another official-looking car. Martin would discover the third car belonged to a chaplain.
It was not yet 8 in the morning, barely 12 hours since the shooting that took place about 100 yards away, and Martin was still unaware of the fate of his son.
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When Tracy Martin greeted the police that morning, a plainclothes detective asked him to describe his son. "He asked me what he last had on. He asked me if I had any recent pictures," Martin said.
"I showed him a recent picture in the camera and he shook his head and said, 'OK, let me go to my car and get something.'" The detective returned with a folder.
It was drizzling, and he asked Martin if they could go inside. When they were seated he pulled out a photo. It was Trayvon, dead at the scene - his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, saliva coming from his mouth. "From that point, our nightmare," Martin said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403
also another description of the events:
On Wednesday, the day after receiving the news, Martin went to the Sanford Police Department looking for answers - and his son's body. Police took him to a room and played some of the 911 recordings of neighbors who called to report a disturbance followed by a gunshot.
They did not play an earlier call to a police non-emergency line, during which Zimmerman reported a "suspicious guy" and ignored the operator's suggestion to quit following him. Investigator Chris Serino then took Martin to another room and told him Zimmerman's version of events.
Sanford police have stopped talking to reporters about the case, and Serino has never spoken publicly about his role in it, but here is how Martin recalls what Serino said: "He told me Zimmerman's story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, ‘Why are your following me?' Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon ‘I'm not following you.' He rolls his car windows up.
"Trayvon walks off. Zimmerman said he started running between the buildings. Zimmerman gets out of his car. He comes around the building. Trayvon is hiding behind the building, waiting on him. Trayvon approaches him and says, ‘What's your problem, homes?' Zimmerman says ‘I don't have a problem.'
"Zimmerman starts to reach into his pocket to get his cellphone, and at that point Trayvon attacked him. He says Trayvon hits him. He falls on the ground. Trayvon jumps on top of him, takes his left hand and covers Zimmerman's mouth and tells him to shut the F up and continues to pound on him.
"At that point Zimmerman is able to unholster his weapon and fire a shot, striking Trayvon in the chest. Trayvon falls on his back and says, 'You got me.'" The Martin family has been telling their story as part of a campaign to have Zimmerman arrested. He himself has kept quiet.
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On April 04 2012 03:40 whatwhatanut wrote:
I thought he was a "self-appointed" neighborhood watchmen? Quite a significant difference in what that implies about his "responsibility".
"self-appointed" came about in the original media rush to condemn Z-man. After the facts came out it was found that he was elected by his neighbors in a legitimate HOA run neighborhood watch.
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On April 04 2012 03:58 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 03:40 whatwhatanut wrote:
I thought he was a "self-appointed" neighborhood watchmen? Quite a significant difference in what that implies about his "responsibility". "self-appointed" came about in the original media rush to condemn Z-man. After the facts came out it was found that he was elected by his neighbors in a legitimate HOA run neighborhood watch.
The neighborhood watch is in way charged with intervening or confronting with anyone it suspects. He was not acting in accordance with what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member, and any claims that such a volunteer role mandates or legitimizes any of the actions he took after calling the police should be laughed at.
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On April 04 2012 04:16 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 03:58 dogabutila wrote:On April 04 2012 03:40 whatwhatanut wrote:
I thought he was a "self-appointed" neighborhood watchmen? Quite a significant difference in what that implies about his "responsibility". "self-appointed" came about in the original media rush to condemn Z-man. After the facts came out it was found that he was elected by his neighbors in a legitimate HOA run neighborhood watch. The neighborhood watch is in way charged with intervening or confronting with anyone it suspects. He was not acting in accordance with what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member, and any claims that such a volunteer role mandates or legitimizes any of the actions he took after calling the police should be laughed at.
But it also doesn't remove any rights he has as a private citizen after calling the police.
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On April 04 2012 04:51 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 04:16 Zorkmid wrote:On April 04 2012 03:58 dogabutila wrote:On April 04 2012 03:40 whatwhatanut wrote:
I thought he was a "self-appointed" neighborhood watchmen? Quite a significant difference in what that implies about his "responsibility". "self-appointed" came about in the original media rush to condemn Z-man. After the facts came out it was found that he was elected by his neighbors in a legitimate HOA run neighborhood watch. The neighborhood watch is in way charged with intervening or confronting with anyone it suspects. He was not acting in accordance with what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member, and any claims that such a volunteer role mandates or legitimizes any of the actions he took after calling the police should be laughed at. But it also doesn't remove any rights he has as a private citizen after calling the police.
I'm sorry, what doesn't remove any rights he has a private citizen?
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Ok, so I'm from Florida and a LOT of people here have been screaming about this. Especially in my school. I'm currently in highschool. A lot of us have been making signs, wearing hoodies, and buying skittles. We've been getting bitched at it by the admins in our school because its apparently a touchy subject. Even though we are supporting something that is down right wrong. Honestly though, a lot of BS has been going on. And i think it is being kind of blown out of proportion. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. Just saying.
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On April 04 2012 04:54 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 04:51 Kaitlin wrote:On April 04 2012 04:16 Zorkmid wrote:On April 04 2012 03:58 dogabutila wrote:On April 04 2012 03:40 whatwhatanut wrote:
I thought he was a "self-appointed" neighborhood watchmen? Quite a significant difference in what that implies about his "responsibility". "self-appointed" came about in the original media rush to condemn Z-man. After the facts came out it was found that he was elected by his neighbors in a legitimate HOA run neighborhood watch. The neighborhood watch is in way charged with intervening or confronting with anyone it suspects. He was not acting in accordance with what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member, and any claims that such a volunteer role mandates or legitimizes any of the actions he took after calling the police should be laughed at. But it also doesn't remove any rights he has as a private citizen after calling the police. I'm sorry, what doesn't remove any rights he has a private citizen?
Your statement here:
any claims that such a volunteer role mandates or legitimizes any of the actions he took after calling the police should be laughed at
seems to indicate that you feel his actions taken after calling the police were beyond what he had the right to do. I was pointing out that any private citizen could do what he did. Perhaps I'm just having difficulty understanding what you're trying to say.
edit: Ok, I've read your statement (again). To answer your question, I was referring to the fact that serving as neighborhood watch doesn't limit his rights to do what he did. You commented that his actions after calling the police could not be legitimized by the fact that he was neighborhood watch. I am saying, any citizen had the right to do what he did.
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On April 04 2012 02:50 Felnarion wrote:
I find it interesting that you know it is a "valley" and not an injury, having no other photographic evidence or reason to believe it is simply a valley. I'm not saying it isn't, but you're just trying to prove what you want it to be, not what you have any reason to believe it is.
My point was to show how these pictures are deliberately manipulated to mess with the viewers. It is difficult to see no wound of any kind in the manipulated picture while it is nearly impossible to see a wound in the original. So there is no enhancement but just plain manipulation.
I think that the reasons I pointed out for it being a valley were not that bad (look at the changing light in motion) but I am certainly no expert in this field. Of course you are free to draw your own conclusions, but please don't rely on ABCs manipulated version. Just look at the text... it has an outline that definetly came from sharpening.
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On April 04 2012 05:54 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 04:54 Zorkmid wrote:On April 04 2012 04:51 Kaitlin wrote:On April 04 2012 04:16 Zorkmid wrote:On April 04 2012 03:58 dogabutila wrote:On April 04 2012 03:40 whatwhatanut wrote:
I thought he was a "self-appointed" neighborhood watchmen? Quite a significant difference in what that implies about his "responsibility". "self-appointed" came about in the original media rush to condemn Z-man. After the facts came out it was found that he was elected by his neighbors in a legitimate HOA run neighborhood watch. The neighborhood watch is in way charged with intervening or confronting with anyone it suspects. He was not acting in accordance with what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member, and any claims that such a volunteer role mandates or legitimizes any of the actions he took after calling the police should be laughed at. But it also doesn't remove any rights he has as a private citizen after calling the police. I'm sorry, what doesn't remove any rights he has a private citizen? Your statement here: Show nested quote +any claims that such a volunteer role mandates or legitimizes any of the actions he took after calling the police should be laughed at seems to indicate that you feel his actions taken after calling the police were beyond what he had the right to do. I was pointing out that any private citizen could do what he did. Perhaps I'm just having difficulty understanding what you're trying to say. edit: Ok, I've read your statement (again). To answer your question, I was referring to the fact that serving as neighborhood watch doesn't limit his rights to do what he did. You commented that his actions after calling the police could not be legitimized by the fact that he was neighborhood watch. I am saying, any citizen had the right to do what he did.
Let's wait until we know exactly what he did before we defend his rights to do whatever it is that he did.
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On April 04 2012 09:39 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 05:54 Kaitlin wrote:On April 04 2012 04:54 Zorkmid wrote:On April 04 2012 04:51 Kaitlin wrote:On April 04 2012 04:16 Zorkmid wrote:On April 04 2012 03:58 dogabutila wrote:On April 04 2012 03:40 whatwhatanut wrote:
I thought he was a "self-appointed" neighborhood watchmen? Quite a significant difference in what that implies about his "responsibility". "self-appointed" came about in the original media rush to condemn Z-man. After the facts came out it was found that he was elected by his neighbors in a legitimate HOA run neighborhood watch. The neighborhood watch is in way charged with intervening or confronting with anyone it suspects. He was not acting in accordance with what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member, and any claims that such a volunteer role mandates or legitimizes any of the actions he took after calling the police should be laughed at. But it also doesn't remove any rights he has as a private citizen after calling the police. I'm sorry, what doesn't remove any rights he has a private citizen? Your statement here: any claims that such a volunteer role mandates or legitimizes any of the actions he took after calling the police should be laughed at seems to indicate that you feel his actions taken after calling the police were beyond what he had the right to do. I was pointing out that any private citizen could do what he did. Perhaps I'm just having difficulty understanding what you're trying to say. edit: Ok, I've read your statement (again). To answer your question, I was referring to the fact that serving as neighborhood watch doesn't limit his rights to do what he did. You commented that his actions after calling the police could not be legitimized by the fact that he was neighborhood watch. I am saying, any citizen had the right to do what he did. Let's wait until we know exactly what he did before we defend his rights to do it.
lol, well, ok. I wasn't intending to get to the point of the shooting, but the following and keeping tabs on Trayvon until the cops arrived, and also his right to question Trayvon as to why he was there and what he was doing. I'm not implying Trayvon was required to answer, only that Zimmerman had the right to ask and to be there. Certainly what happened with the physical confrontation and shooting is unclear.
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The neighborhood watch is in way charged with intervening or confronting with anyone it suspects. He was not acting in accordance with what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member, and any claims that such a volunteer role mandates or legitimizes any of the actions he took after calling the police should be laughed at.
I'm pretty sure you're not well-informed on "what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member" as far as it pertains to the particular homeowner's association for this "gated community." You're just saying that to express your disapproval of Zimmerman and because it sounds good.
Let's wait until we know exactly what he did before we defend his rights to do whatever it is that he did.
And shouldn't you also be doing that before you make proclamations like he was not acting in accordance with what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member?
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On April 04 2012 10:09 DeepElemBlues wrote:
And shouldn't you also be doing that before you make proclamations like he was not acting in accordance with what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member?
From their twitter.
NeighborhoodWatch @USAonWatch
Neighborhood Watch is based on the premise that the role of watch groups is only to serve as the eyes and ears of law enforcement
NeighborhoodWatch @USAonWatch
At no time, do we advocate any intervention actions by any watch group or individual #neighborhoodwatch
I haven't heard any version of the story where George doesn't intervene.
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On April 02 2012 02:13 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 01:29 Velocirapture wrote:On April 02 2012 00:46 red_b wrote:
gtrsrs, actually Zimmerman did admit to following Martin in the call. The part of the call where the operator asks is he is following Tayvon and the operator tells him not to is the most damning of all the evidence to me. He knew professionals were on the job and instead opted for vigilante justice WHILE armed. I am left wondering if there is any legal notion of increased accountability for those bearing arms. It seems to not be so given this case but it probably should be. Zimmerman calls the non-emergency police line at 7:00 pm. The police arrive finally at 7:17 pm. Surely you can see that Zimmerman was concerned that the suspect could get away if he just left it at that, and felt he would better protect his community from this would-be burglar if he followed him? I don't see what you find damning about Zimmerman following the guy. You think he was stalking a random stranger because he just felt like killing someone that day?
I dont care what his feelings were. When a professional tells you not to follow you STOP immediately. Its exactly the same type of overzealous behavior that led to the shooter disobeying a direct order from law enforcement as what led to Tayvon's death.
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On April 04 2012 10:13 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 10:09 DeepElemBlues wrote:
And shouldn't you also be doing that before you make proclamations like he was not acting in accordance with what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member? From their twitter. NeighborhoodWatch @USAonWatch Neighborhood Watch is based on the premise that the role of watch groups is only to serve as the eyes and ears of law enforcement NeighborhoodWatch @USAonWatch At no time, do we advocate any intervention actions by any watch group or individual #neighborhoodwatch I haven't heard any version of the story where George doesn't intervene.
Has new information come to light or something? I could have sworn Zimmerman's side of the story was he was flowing Trayvon (Or looking for the address) and when he returned to his vehicle Trayvon CONFRONTED HIM. Then the physical altercation broke out. Granted this is Zimmerman's side of the story, it doesn't mean it's right or wrong. As with the argument for him starting the confrontation.
One again people are just damning one party or the other without taking in all the facts or even being the least bit impartial on the matter.
+ Show Spoiler +Unless of course Zimmerman has changed his story in the past few days and I've just been out of the loop.
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On April 04 2012 10:13 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 10:09 DeepElemBlues wrote:
And shouldn't you also be doing that before you make proclamations like he was not acting in accordance with what would be expected of a neighborhood watch member? From their twitter. NeighborhoodWatch @USAonWatch Neighborhood Watch is based on the premise that the role of watch groups is only to serve as the eyes and ears of law enforcement NeighborhoodWatch @USAonWatch At no time, do we advocate any intervention actions by any watch group or individual #neighborhoodwatch I haven't heard any version of the story where George doesn't intervene.
neighborhood watch is a generic term. its not like these individuals are part of an official organization. my community's neighborhood watch is just a bunch of older dudes walking around and talking to people (those they know and dont know). part of prevention is just having people patrolling around so that criminals cant think they can do whatever they want without people seeing.
the idea that you cant ask an unfamiliar individual in your GATED neighborhood what they are doing in your neighborhood is ridiculous to me.
On April 04 2012 10:18 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:13 Zato-1 wrote:On April 02 2012 01:29 Velocirapture wrote:On April 02 2012 00:46 red_b wrote:
gtrsrs, actually Zimmerman did admit to following Martin in the call. The part of the call where the operator asks is he is following Tayvon and the operator tells him not to is the most damning of all the evidence to me. He knew professionals were on the job and instead opted for vigilante justice WHILE armed. I am left wondering if there is any legal notion of increased accountability for those bearing arms. It seems to not be so given this case but it probably should be. Zimmerman calls the non-emergency police line at 7:00 pm. The police arrive finally at 7:17 pm. Surely you can see that Zimmerman was concerned that the suspect could get away if he just left it at that, and felt he would better protect his community from this would-be burglar if he followed him? I don't see what you find damning about Zimmerman following the guy. You think he was stalking a random stranger because he just felt like killing someone that day? I dont care what his feelings were. When a professional tells you not to follow you STOP immediately. Its exactly the same type of overzealous behavior that led to the shooter disobeying a direct order from law enforcement as what led to Tayvon's death.
i suggest you go back and read what actually happened. including the police's statement concerning the "direct order" you made up.
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On April 03 2012 11:51 Krohm wrote:
I have a quick question regarding this whole thread. But has Zimmerman been charged with anything at all yet?
If he isn't charged with anything won't there be no actual court case? I'm somewhat uneducated when it comes to self-defense laws and the actual legal process involving it.
He can't be charged unless police prove he wasn't defending himself. So basically if police don't want to do anything they don't have too. This is Florida-specific, not America-specific, however.
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If Zimmerman reached into his pocket on a dark night during a heated conversation I believe that Trayvon Martin had a right to apply deadly force to prevent the drawing of weapon under the Florida Stand Your Ground Law if he believed that it was the only way to stop him from using it. Clearly, that was the case as Martin's only real chance to come out of the encounter alive would be to kill Zimmerman as breaking his arm would probably have been outside the realm of possibility.
I haven't found an answer as to how exactly Zimmerman was carrying his pistol. One story said the officer found it in a holster ON his waistband. The wording is especially important. If Martin sees that this man is armed, they are having a heated conversation and Zimmerman makes a move towards it then he for certain has legal ground to attack Zimmerman in an effort to prevent the weapon from being drawn.
I want to point out that police officers have shot, and subsequently not been held liable, for shooting people who do less than that.
On a less objective note, I suspect that Zimmerman's story is highly optimized from his point of view. I do not see it being very likely that the truth will be any more in his favor. Zimmerman may not be guilty of first degree murder, but I think at this point he should at least be charged with stalking or intimidation, it will most likely turn out that he is guilty of brandishing a firearm and while I think it unlikely he will be charged with murder, he should probably get a manslaughter charge.
And I swear if this guy keeps his carry license through this I will be incredibly raged.
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EPT
