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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On April 02 2012 03:38 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:34 Fyrewolf wrote:On April 02 2012 03:21 Zato-1 wrote:On April 02 2012 02:35 liberal wrote:
So many of these questions and debates seem pointless to me. It's not illegal to follow someone. It's not illegal to carry a gun. It's not illegal to call a police dispatcher. The stand your ground law doesn't grant people the right to self defense before they are even attacked.
The only question that matters in this whole scenario is: Who initiated the violence, and to what degree?
The rest is just white noise. I hear ya. I'd like to give my take on another debate topic: Who does the voice calling for help on the 911 call belong to? FactsGeorge Zimmerman claims it's his voice. The unnamed eyewitness claims Zimmerman yelled for help (from the OP, Police Arrival spoiler) Zimmerman's father claims that "All of our family (...) knows absolutely that is George screaming,"Trayvon Martin's father claims that the voice calling for help on the 911 call does not belong to MartinTwo experts claim that It's not George Zimmerman calling for helpMy interpretation of the factsZimmerman's claim should be taken with a grain of salt because a lot of people in his shoes would claim it was their own voice in such a situation, regardless of whether it really was or not, in order to try and prove their innocence. As far as we know, the unnamed eyewitness backs up Zimmerman's story fully. His claims that it was Zimmerman crying for help could be doubted if there was reason to believe this eyewitness could have an ulterior motive for lying on Zimmerman's behalf, but so far we know of no such motive. He could also misremember what happened, or be confused about it. The voice identification experts' claims, I am less of a fan of. Firstly, there is dAPhREAk's valid point of how some "experts" whore themselves out to reach convenient conclusions for their clients on legal cases, or maybe even to just cause controversy and get free publicity for their craft. However, even if they were being completely honest, I have another problem with this, which Felnarion brought up: Doesn't a person's voice sound wildly different when they're screaming for help than when they're talking normally? Personally, I would put a lot more weight on what their close relatives have to say on the matter; people who know how the person in question might sound like when yelling for help. The facts that Zimmerman's father claims that the voice definitely belongs to his son, whereas Martin's father claims that the voice does NOT belong to his son, lead me to think that the voice calling for help almost certainly belonged to Zimmerman. Feel free to add to or question my exposition of the facts, and of course, also to present your own analysis and interpretation of said facts if you disagree with me. Actually Trayvon Martin's father did claim it was his son's voice, in a later interview on Anderson 360. That is the story he is currently sticking with, though that shouldn't be construed as anything, because it is possible after hearing the tapes again over following days he does recognize the voice and changed his mind. Since either sides parents would stand to gain that it was their son on the tape, I don't really care that much what either of them say though. normally, i would agree with you. both parents have a good reason to say that is it their son's voice. zimmerman's father obviously wants to see him stay out of prison; trayvon's father wants his son's reputation to be protected (and they are suing the homeowner's association for money). i would probably disregard both of their opinions. however, the fact that trayvon's father initially said "its not my son's voice" gives me some doubt as to whether it was in fact trayvon screaming (especially considering all of the evidence pointed out in the quote above). reasonable doubt is all you need to beat a conviction.
Indeed, I was just saying it because people are writing as if he is still saying that, which he is not. That fact shouldn't be discounted either, that he doesn't continue to make that claim.
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interesting read on the admissibility of voice identification evidence.
Although these reviews document several steps of progress, they
also make it clear that much remains to be done to establish the scientific validity
and reliability of talker identification by acoustic methods. Gruber and Poza87 list
several areas in which there are open questions or a significant lack of scientific
evidence. These include knowledge about (1) the uniqueness and consistency of
voices, (2) the relative value of aural and visual methods of identification, (3) the
relative accuracy of laypersons and experts using different methods of
identification, (4) the specific features that pertain to visual. or aural pattern
matching, (5) the criteria used by forensic specialists, (6) "error rates and
accuracy in real-world forensic situations, and (7) effect of speaker situation on
identification and elimination protocols. This is a substantial list of unresolved
issues, and although some progress has been made since publication of the
Gruber and Poza volume, the list can be repeated today virtually in its entirety as
an agenda for future work.
http://tapeexpert.com/pdf/modern scientific evidence.pdf
it should be noted that two cases admitted such evidence in Florida as corroborating evidence (i.e., admissible as further proof of an identification, but not of the identification itself).
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On April 02 2012 03:34 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:21 Zato-1 wrote:On April 02 2012 02:35 liberal wrote:
So many of these questions and debates seem pointless to me. It's not illegal to follow someone. It's not illegal to carry a gun. It's not illegal to call a police dispatcher. The stand your ground law doesn't grant people the right to self defense before they are even attacked.
The only question that matters in this whole scenario is: Who initiated the violence, and to what degree?
The rest is just white noise. I hear ya. I'd like to give my take on another debate topic: Who does the voice calling for help on the 911 call belong to? FactsGeorge Zimmerman claims it's his voice. The unnamed eyewitness claims Zimmerman yelled for help (from the OP, Police Arrival spoiler) Zimmerman's father claims that "All of our family (...) knows absolutely that is George screaming,"Trayvon Martin's father claims that the voice calling for help on the 911 call does not belong to MartinTwo experts claim that It's not George Zimmerman calling for helpMy interpretation of the factsZimmerman's claim should be taken with a grain of salt because a lot of people in his shoes would claim it was their own voice in such a situation, regardless of whether it really was or not, in order to try and prove their innocence. As far as we know, the unnamed eyewitness backs up Zimmerman's story fully. His claims that it was Zimmerman crying for help could be doubted if there was reason to believe this eyewitness could have an ulterior motive for lying on Zimmerman's behalf, but so far we know of no such motive. He could also misremember what happened, or be confused about it. The voice identification experts' claims, I am less of a fan of. Firstly, there is dAPhREAk's valid point of how some "experts" whore themselves out to reach convenient conclusions for their clients on legal cases, or maybe even to just cause controversy and get free publicity for their craft. However, even if they were being completely honest, I have another problem with this, which Felnarion brought up: Doesn't a person's voice sound wildly different when they're screaming for help than when they're talking normally? Personally, I would put a lot more weight on what their close relatives have to say on the matter; people who know how the person in question might sound like when yelling for help. The facts that Zimmerman's father claims that the voice definitely belongs to his son, whereas Martin's father claims that the voice does NOT belong to his son, lead me to think that the voice calling for help almost certainly belonged to Zimmerman. Feel free to add to or question my exposition of the facts, and of course, also to present your own analysis and interpretation of said facts if you disagree with me. Actually Trayvon Martin's father did claim it was his son's voice, in a later interview on Anderson 360. That is the story he is currently sticking with, though that shouldn't be construed as anything, because it is possible after hearing the tapes again over following days he does recognize the voice and changed his mind. Since either sides parents would stand to gain that it was their son on the tape, I don't really care that much what either of them say though.
Thanks for pointing this out, I edited my exposition of the facts and the degree of certainty in my conclusion.
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As much as I think Zimmerman was in the wrong, I will never truly know what happened that day. Zimmerman may very well be guilty, but unless we know for sure that he was in the wrong to shoot (which we obviously don't), then he shouldn't be charged.
"It is better one hundred guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer" -Ben Franklin.
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Given that there's only two voices it could be (Trayvon and Zimmerman), yeah it's a 50-50 chance lol. Some experts they are.
Anyways, I listened to your link and then that video of Zimmerman making the call to the police. The voices don't seem to match to me. The one screaming for help sounds younger and different from what Zimmerman sounded like. Not to mention Zimmerman willing followed him, armed. Doesn't make sense Trayvon would somehow get the drop on him, and that Zimmerman would feel the need to yell for help before realizing: "Oh yeah, I have a gun", then somehow being able to use it that scenario where he thought needed help.
Doesn't really add up.
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On April 02 2012 07:42 killa_robot wrote:Given that there's only two voices it could be (Trayvon and Zimmerman), yeah it's a 50-50 chance lol. Some experts they are. Anyways, I listened to your link and then that video of Zimmerman making the call to the police. The voices don't seem to match to me. The one screaming for help sounds younger and different from what Zimmerman sounded like. Not to mention Zimmerman willing followed him, armed. Doesn't make sense Trayvon would somehow get the drop on him, and that Zimmerman would feel the need to yell for help before realizing: "Oh yeah, I have a gun", then somehow being able to use it that scenario where he thought needed help. Doesn't really add up.
sounds like a kid to me too. but,
The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,” he said. Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/report-witness-claims-trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman/
edit: i just listened to it again. im not so sure it sounds like a kid anymore, and i dont know what zimmerman even sounds like, so im not going to guess.
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On April 02 2012 03:46 dAPhREAk wrote:interesting read on the admissibility of voice identification evidence. Show nested quote +Although these reviews document several steps of progress, they
also make it clear that much remains to be done to establish the scientific validity
and reliability of talker identification by acoustic methods. Gruber and Poza87 list
several areas in which there are open questions or a significant lack of scientific
evidence. These include knowledge about (1) the uniqueness and consistency of
voices, (2) the relative value of aural and visual methods of identification, (3) the
relative accuracy of laypersons and experts using different methods of
identification, (4) the specific features that pertain to visual. or aural pattern
matching, (5) the criteria used by forensic specialists, (6) "error rates and
accuracy in real-world forensic situations, and (7) effect of speaker situation on
identification and elimination protocols. This is a substantial list of unresolved
issues, and although some progress has been made since publication of the
Gruber and Poza volume, the list can be repeated today virtually in its entirety as
an agenda for future work. http://tapeexpert.com/pdf/modern scientific evidence.pdfit should be noted that two cases admitted such evidence in Florida as corroborating evidence (i.e., admissible as further proof of an identification, but not of the identification itself).
Good to know, thanks.
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With this whole voice arguement, I would like to see an experiment performed.
I would like to have Zimmerman yell for help from the same position he claims he was in and record the sound of his voice through the same telephone and 911 recording system.
Simple studies could be done analyzing the consistency and variability of voice waveforms passing through the same lines of communication. With this, we may be able to say with some certainty who was and who wasn't calling for help... or maybe not if the variability is high.
Having recognized the voice of friends and family through the same lines of communication, I would expect Zimmerman should sound the same if he really was yelling for help as he claims.
I hope justice is done.
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On April 02 2012 07:50 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 07:42 killa_robot wrote:Given that there's only two voices it could be (Trayvon and Zimmerman), yeah it's a 50-50 chance lol. Some experts they are. Anyways, I listened to your link and then that video of Zimmerman making the call to the police. The voices don't seem to match to me. The one screaming for help sounds younger and different from what Zimmerman sounded like. Not to mention Zimmerman willing followed him, armed. Doesn't make sense Trayvon would somehow get the drop on him, and that Zimmerman would feel the need to yell for help before realizing: "Oh yeah, I have a gun", then somehow being able to use it that scenario where he thought needed help. Doesn't really add up. sounds like a kid to me too. but, Show nested quote +The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,” he said. Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/report-witness-claims-trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman/edit: i just listened to it again. im not so sure it sounds like a kid anymore, and i dont know what zimmerman even sounds like, so im not going to guess.
You can find a few videos on youtube that have Zimmerman talking to a dispatcher, when he decided to follow Trayvon. It doesn't really sound like Zimmerman, and honestly it was dark out, so I would hardly trust what a bystander would say. Especially since you have no idea how close they actually got. It's possible that the only colour they could make out was red.
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On April 02 2012 15:58 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 07:50 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 02 2012 07:42 killa_robot wrote:Given that there's only two voices it could be (Trayvon and Zimmerman), yeah it's a 50-50 chance lol. Some experts they are. Anyways, I listened to your link and then that video of Zimmerman making the call to the police. The voices don't seem to match to me. The one screaming for help sounds younger and different from what Zimmerman sounded like. Not to mention Zimmerman willing followed him, armed. Doesn't make sense Trayvon would somehow get the drop on him, and that Zimmerman would feel the need to yell for help before realizing: "Oh yeah, I have a gun", then somehow being able to use it that scenario where he thought needed help. Doesn't really add up. sounds like a kid to me too. but, The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,” he said. Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/report-witness-claims-trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman/edit: i just listened to it again. im not so sure it sounds like a kid anymore, and i dont know what zimmerman even sounds like, so im not going to guess. You can find a few videos on youtube that have Zimmerman talking to a dispatcher, when he decided to follow Trayvon. It doesn't really sound like Zimmerman, and honestly it was dark out, so I would hardly trust what a bystander would say. Especially since you have no idea how close they actually got. It's possible that the only colour they could make out was red.
You probably wouldn't yell help help if you were on top of someone though and the bystander said zimmerman was on the bottom
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On April 02 2012 04:13 ronpaul012 wrote:
As much as I think Zimmerman was in the wrong, I will never truly know what happened that day. Zimmerman may very well be guilty, but unless we know for sure that he was in the wrong to shoot (which we obviously don't), then he shouldn't be charged.
"It is better one hundred guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer" -Ben Franklin.
There's a big difference between being charged and being convicted.
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On April 02 2012 16:19 Probe. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 15:58 killa_robot wrote:On April 02 2012 07:50 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 02 2012 07:42 killa_robot wrote:Given that there's only two voices it could be (Trayvon and Zimmerman), yeah it's a 50-50 chance lol. Some experts they are. Anyways, I listened to your link and then that video of Zimmerman making the call to the police. The voices don't seem to match to me. The one screaming for help sounds younger and different from what Zimmerman sounded like. Not to mention Zimmerman willing followed him, armed. Doesn't make sense Trayvon would somehow get the drop on him, and that Zimmerman would feel the need to yell for help before realizing: "Oh yeah, I have a gun", then somehow being able to use it that scenario where he thought needed help. Doesn't really add up. sounds like a kid to me too. but, The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,” he said. Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/report-witness-claims-trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman/edit: i just listened to it again. im not so sure it sounds like a kid anymore, and i dont know what zimmerman even sounds like, so im not going to guess. You can find a few videos on youtube that have Zimmerman talking to a dispatcher, when he decided to follow Trayvon. It doesn't really sound like Zimmerman, and honestly it was dark out, so I would hardly trust what a bystander would say. Especially since you have no idea how close they actually got. It's possible that the only colour they could make out was red. You probably wouldn't yell help help if you were on top of someone though and the bystander said zimmerman was on the bottom
Why wouldn't he? A kid just on his way home gets into an altercation with a strange man, whether he ends up on top of him or below him why would he 'probably' not yell for help? Assuming it's not a fight he picked and that he has no interest in hurting anyone, yelling for help is about the most reasonable thing to expect him to do. It's not pro wrestling and it doesn't end if he stays on top for a 3 count.
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On April 02 2012 23:10 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 16:19 Probe. wrote:On April 02 2012 15:58 killa_robot wrote:On April 02 2012 07:50 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 02 2012 07:42 killa_robot wrote:Given that there's only two voices it could be (Trayvon and Zimmerman), yeah it's a 50-50 chance lol. Some experts they are. Anyways, I listened to your link and then that video of Zimmerman making the call to the police. The voices don't seem to match to me. The one screaming for help sounds younger and different from what Zimmerman sounded like. Not to mention Zimmerman willing followed him, armed. Doesn't make sense Trayvon would somehow get the drop on him, and that Zimmerman would feel the need to yell for help before realizing: "Oh yeah, I have a gun", then somehow being able to use it that scenario where he thought needed help. Doesn't really add up. sounds like a kid to me too. but, The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,” he said. Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/report-witness-claims-trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman/edit: i just listened to it again. im not so sure it sounds like a kid anymore, and i dont know what zimmerman even sounds like, so im not going to guess. You can find a few videos on youtube that have Zimmerman talking to a dispatcher, when he decided to follow Trayvon. It doesn't really sound like Zimmerman, and honestly it was dark out, so I would hardly trust what a bystander would say. Especially since you have no idea how close they actually got. It's possible that the only colour they could make out was red. You probably wouldn't yell help help if you were on top of someone though and the bystander said zimmerman was on the bottom Why wouldn't he? A kid just on his way home gets into an altercation with a strange man, whether he ends up on top of him or below him why would he 'probably' not yell for help? Assuming it's not a fight he picked and that he has no interest in hurting anyone, yelling for help is about the most reasonable thing to expect him to do. It's not pro wrestling and it doesn't end if he stays on top for a 3 count.
Could be he saw the gun and started screaming for help.
As for getting Trayvon's voice - I assume in this current age, there has to be a source somewhere for investigators to get Trayvon's voice. His voicemail, his family's voicemail, perhaps home videos. It would be in the interest of the Martin family to share those files I imagine..
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On April 02 2012 07:42 killa_robot wrote:Given that there's only two voices it could be (Trayvon and Zimmerman), yeah it's a 50-50 chance lol. Some experts they are. Anyways, I listened to your link and then that video of Zimmerman making the call to the police. The voices don't seem to match to me. The one screaming for help sounds younger and different from what Zimmerman sounded like. Not to mention Zimmerman willing followed him, armed. Doesn't make sense Trayvon would somehow get the drop on him, and that Zimmerman would feel the need to yell for help before realizing: "Oh yeah, I have a gun", then somehow being able to use it that scenario where he thought needed help. Doesn't really add up.
Someone getting beat up would yell for help even if they have a gun because shooting someone is an absolute last resort. He would yell for help first, because he doesn't want to shoot if it isn't absolutely necessary.
As for Trayvon getting the drop on him, it isn't that ridiculous. We don't know how the fight started, and Zimmerman very easily could've been knocked down. I agree it couldn't have been a surprise attack, but Trayvon could've still knocked him down.
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After nearly a minute of being beaten, George was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with Trayvon on him, in the grass. In doing so, his firearm was shown. Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of, 'You're going to die now,' or 'You're going to die tonight' or something to that effect," Robert Zimmerman said.
This quote seems notable as it's taken from Zimmerman's account. It could be a complete fabrication, but it does suggest that Trayvon saw the gun during the fight. It would correlate with Trayvon yelling for help after seeing the gun. Or it could just mean Trayvon was far more willing to pummel Zimmerman so that Zimmerman wouldn't just shoot him. The quote itself seems like an obvious attempt to show Trayvon had the intent to kill, but if you take out the "you're going to die now" quote it seems like a more honest account of how things went down and it certainly muddies the water as to who had more reason to fear for their lives.
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Media is walking back a lot of their inflammatory stories. ABC says yes, Zimmerman was injured, new video shows injury. NBC is investigating the dishonest editing of Zimmerman's 911 call. And the New York Times now admits that Zimmerman weighs 170 to Martin's 150. Not such a great weight difference there. With so many lies in the media, who will be held responsible?
Media Walkbacks Becoming A Stampede
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On April 03 2012 02:17 Freddybear wrote:Media is walking back a lot of their inflammatory stories. ABC says yes, Zimmerman was injured, new video shows injury. NBC is investigating the dishonest editing of Zimmerman's 911 call. And the New York Times now admits that Zimmerman weighs 170 to Martin's 150. Not such a great weight difference there. With so many lies in the media, who will be held responsible? Media Walkbacks Becoming A Stampede
If the weights are indeed true than it is very possible that Trayvon got the jump on him and knocked him down
hopefully the truth comes out and justice is served. Would hate to see Zimmerman go to jail if he was indeed innocent
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On April 03 2012 02:17 Freddybear wrote:Media is walking back a lot of their inflammatory stories. ABC says yes, Zimmerman was injured, new video shows injury. NBC is investigating the dishonest editing of Zimmerman's 911 call. And the New York Times now admits that Zimmerman weighs 170 to Martin's 150. Not such a great weight difference there. With so many lies in the media, who will be held responsible? Media Walkbacks Becoming A Stampede
And they'll get off scott free. There'll be a 30 second apology, and they'll just move on like it never happened; no consequences, nothing.
This is honestly way more of an issue to me. Even if Zimmerman is guilty, he's just one guy. The news media can control the entire country. I can't think of a punishment too strict for the people involved in this.
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EPT
