On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
But it's not.
The equivalent of demoiselle is damsel. The equivalent of mademoiselle is literally "My damsel" but more equivalent in meaning to "Ms." or "young lady".
On February 28 2012 02:18 Marou wrote: It's a complete non issue, and we shouldn't even be talking about that. This is yet another move to occupy media space with useless debate on things that pretty much every body doesn't give a single fuck. There are so many topics that deserve to be put in the front rather than this, even on the subject of woman right.
This is typical politics and it makes me want to throw up when i see this debate being in the front of the news.
edit : yeah i'm happy for the 10 crazy bitches that cared about it tho, i see that it's not normal that women have to precise their martial status in forms whereas men doesn't have to... ~_~
In all important forms you have a marital field anyway : "celibataire/marié/concubinage/divorcé/enfants".... that mademoiselle field was cosmetic anyway. So yes, men have to tell their marital status, too.
You make a good point here...showing how useless this change is T__T
That's why I just don't get the fuss over that word -_- see my previous post for how it is used culturally. (aimed @ the others, cause you should know, being french and all xD)
@ Jibba : demoiselle is not the same as mademoiselle in French. Demoiselle is little lady, "nice" term used for little girls, mademoiselle, I already told it previously.
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term.
Most young women will laugh or get upset if you use "mademoiselle". It is just ankward and old fashioned lol.
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term.
Most young women will laugh or get upset if you use "mademoiselle". It is just ankward and old fashioned lol.
Upset ? awkward ? old fashioned ? Lol no. They'd either correct us and tell us to say madame, either be glad cause it means they're young or just say nothing cause it's normal for them.
Where do you live to say that lol ? It's nearly honorific, when you want to be courteous etc, it's not the least bit awkward >< Trust me, I deal with young french ladies all the time ;D I'd know if they hated it or were upset :D
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
But it's not.
The equivalent of demoiselle is damsel. The equivalent of mademoiselle is literally "My damsel" but more equivalent in meaning to "Ms." or "young lady".
Damsel = little lady
It means "young lady". Shouldn't translate everything literally. Or taking a break could be very painful.
I personnaly think no one will give a fuck about that stuff and everybody will keep callin mademoiselle the young girls !!! I don't see how i could call a 20 yo "madame", i can't do that ^^
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
As I said previously, I disagree that "miss" is equivalent to "little lady" I have (as well as most of the rest of my family, on both sides) always used "miss" when speaking to an unfamiliar woman, regardless of age.
For instance, if the waitress who was serving me at a restaurant was a young woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?", and if she was an older woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?".
Nobody has ever been offended by my use of the term "miss", no matter what age she may be. Given that an older woman would certainly be offended if I had called her "little lady", but not if I called her "miss", the terms are obviously (at least as far as all of my experiences, and the experiences of my extended family goes) not synonymous. And given that "miss" and "mademoiselle" are very similar (if not synonymous) terms, I find your interpretation, and the fact that you state it as fact, to be inaccurate.
On February 28 2012 02:37 AIOL! wrote: I personnaly think no one will give a fuck about that stuff and everybody will keep callin mademoiselle the young girls !!! I don't see how i could call a 20 yo "madame", i can't do that ^^
Yeah, I got bashed by my 23yo banker when I first called her Madame :p
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
As I said previously, I disagree that "miss" is equivalent to "little lady" I have (as well as most of the rest of my family, on both sides) always used "miss" when speaking to an unfamiliar woman, regardless of age.
For instance, if the waitress who was serving me at a restaurant was a young woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?", and if she was an older woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?".
Nobody has ever been offended by my use of the term "miss", no matter what age she may be. Given that an older woman would certainly be offended if I had called her "little lady", but not if I called her "miss", the terms are obviously (at least as far as all of my experiences, and the experiences of my extended family goes) not synonymous. And given that "miss" and "mademoiselle" are very similar (if not synonymous) terms, I find your interpretation, and the fact that you state it as fact, to be inaccurate.
Ma'am has actually replaced 'Miss' in most parts of the US, specifically because people get annoyed at it.
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term.
Most young women will laugh or get upset if you use "mademoiselle". It is just ankward and old fashioned lol.
Upset ? awkward ? old fashioned ? Lol no. They'd either correct us and tell us to say madame, either be glad cause it means they're young or just say nothing cause it's normal for them.
Where do you live to say that lol ? It's nearly honorific, when you want to be courteous etc, it's not the least bit awkward >< Trust me, I deal with young french ladies all the time ;D I'd know if they hated it or were upset :D
You really use it on a daily basis with every woman below 30 ? o,o
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
As I said previously, I disagree that "miss" is equivalent to "little lady" I have (as well as most of the rest of my family, on both sides) always used "miss" when speaking to an unfamiliar woman, regardless of age.
For instance, if the waitress who was serving me at a restaurant was a young woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?", and if she was an older woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?".
Nobody has ever been offended by my use of the term "miss", no matter what age she may be. Given that an older woman would certainly be offended if I had called her "little lady", but not if I called her "miss", the terms are obviously (at least as far as all of my experiences, and the experiences of my extended family goes) not synonymous. And given that "miss" and "mademoiselle" are very similar (if not synonymous) terms, I find your interpretation, and the fact that you state it as fact, to be inaccurate.
Ma'am has actually replaced 'Miss' in most parts of the US, specially because people get annoyed at it.
I've always used ma'am and miss interchangeably. I'm from Florida, along with my mother's side of the family (southern states at least) and my father's side of the family is from New York, so I guess i've grown up with both. The main point i'm trying to make is that "miss" is not equivalent to "little lady".
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term.
Most young women will laugh or get upset if you use "mademoiselle". It is just ankward and old fashioned lol.
Upset ? awkward ? old fashioned ? Lol no. They'd either correct us and tell us to say madame, either be glad cause it means they're young or just say nothing cause it's normal for them.
Where do you live to say that lol ? It's nearly honorific, when you want to be courteous etc, it's not the least bit awkward >< Trust me, I deal with young french ladies all the time ;D I'd know if they hated it or were upset :D
You really use it on a daily basis with every woman below 30 ? o,o
Well, yeah 0o Except in a very official kind of meeting (like the first time I saw my banker, be formal first, got corrected at once), but in the street, in a restaurant/bar (waitress), or to girls I know, to (fake :D) gallantry....
Yeah... basically yes. At work I use ranks in fact since I'm in the army, but overall when I don't really know someone, yes. Never got me into trouble. Madame is more respectful to an older woman when you want to be formal though, but it can be disrespectful to a younger one depending on her mood.
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term.
Most young women will laugh or get upset if you use "mademoiselle". It is just ankward and old fashioned lol.
Upset ? awkward ? old fashioned ? Lol no. They'd either correct us and tell us to say madame, either be glad cause it means they're young or just say nothing cause it's normal for them.
Where do you live to say that lol ? It's nearly honorific, when you want to be courteous etc, it's not the least bit awkward >< Trust me, I deal with young french ladies all the time ;D I'd know if they hated it or were upset :D
You really use it on a daily basis with every woman below 30 ? o,o
Well, yeah 0o Except in a very official kind of meeting (like the first time I saw my banker, be formal first, got corrected at once), but in the street, in a restaurant/bar (waitress), or to girls I know, to (fake :D) gallantry....
Yeah... basically yes. At work I use ranks in fact since I'm in the army, but overall when I don't really know someone, yes. Never got me into trouble. Madame is more respectful to an older woman when you want to be formal though, but it can be disrespectful to a younger one depending on her mood.
So do I, except with close friends, I address most women under 30 as mademoiselle (even-though they're older than me) because they give me funny faces as if I'm insulting them for looking old when I call them "madame".
The exceptions are students (undergrads and below) will never do this, but in work settings (or internships), most people will.
let's make everyone transsexuals and solve the problem of sexuality once and for all.
I feel the whole "hiding or masking sexual identity or race or color for "equality"" thing to be a joke. Differences between one person and another always exist, denying differences and covering them up for the sake of PC is what generally harms people in the long run.
Here's a reasonable question. if we're expunging the use of feminine traits, does that mean we're only allowing "male" or "neutral"? That sounds more like gender suppression than "equality". A lot of people don't think of it this way, even though that's what happens. Even the so called "Server" instead of "waiter/waitress". The word "server" implies male characteristics because the word itself is inherently masculine. Just like -to and -ta in Spanish.
Language is inherently categorizing because the human mind is inherently a categorizing machine.
For these kinds of things to stop being doubel standards would be either to treat females as harshly as males or to treat males as leniently as females.
On February 28 2012 00:51 Parsistamon wrote: I think that official forms and documents is hardly the stuff of culture. I'm for it, such often unnoticed things can definitely have a psychological impact.
those "official forms" exist because of culture and society.
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
As I said previously, I disagree that "miss" is equivalent to "little lady" I have (as well as most of the rest of my family, on both sides) always used "miss" when speaking to an unfamiliar woman, regardless of age.
For instance, if the waitress who was serving me at a restaurant was a young woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?", and if she was an older woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?".
Nobody has ever been offended by my use of the term "miss", no matter what age she may be. Given that an older woman would certainly be offended if I had called her "little lady", but not if I called her "miss", the terms are obviously (at least as far as all of my experiences, and the experiences of my extended family goes) not synonymous. And given that "miss" and "mademoiselle" are very similar (if not synonymous) terms, I find your interpretation, and the fact that you state it as fact, to be inaccurate.
Yea, I mean Miss is perfectly fine colloquially. But on business cards and placards people usually use Ms. (and Ms is almost never pronounced without a last name. You can't be like "would you like some coffee, Miz?"). Miss isn't really appropriate for businesswomen imo. Less professional, which seems to be what this is about.
And it sounds like that distinction is more significant in French.
you realize the biggest supporters of feminist movements in the 20's were the wealthy elite who owned businesses. and these people were typically the biggest bigots and racists behind closed doors (sometimes even in public)
Ah if only they could find a better use of their time. Not saying this is a good or a bad thing, i really couldn't care less. But seeing homeless people dying in the cold streets and families getting destroyed by the racist Claude Guéant, i really think there are things that should been taken care of first.
Also, as Booba said : "Ni pute ni soumise vont se réjouir ces sales connasses"
EPT
