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Adieu, "Mademoiselle" - Page 6

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Ansinjunger
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2451 Posts
February 27 2012 18:30 GMT
#101
On February 28 2012 03:29 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
getting rid of beautiful innocent words , great achievement.


It's okay, we've got a new word: swapportunity.
Recognizable
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Netherlands1552 Posts
February 27 2012 18:33 GMT
#102
Mademoiselle I always found such a beautiful word
Spieltor
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
327 Posts
February 27 2012 18:47 GMT
#103
On February 28 2012 03:29 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
getting rid of beautiful innocent words , great achievement.


succinctly said. i think its stupid.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson
mister.bubbles
Profile Joined September 2008
Canada171 Posts
February 27 2012 18:48 GMT
#104
Argh! I hate when there are complicated honorifics in a language, it confuses me so much. I remember when I was on the plane to Montreal I was watching Star Trek in French to get back in shape and I noticed Spock calls Kirk "vous" so I decieded it was probably a good idea to call everyone "vous" just to be sure.

It's really anoying when there are multiple honorifics that and the same ones can be offencive or friendly in the wrong context, like Japanese for instance. I get around it in the worst way possible by calling all my young female friends by masculin terms, mostly "bro" or "dude". It's probably because I live in Hippy-Town Canada, but they seem to be quite alright with it.
http://808seppuku.bandcamp.com/ <---Quick! Go here!
Spieltor
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
327 Posts
February 27 2012 18:54 GMT
#105
On February 28 2012 03:48 mister.bubbles wrote:
Argh! I hate when there are complicated honorifics in a language, it confuses me so much. I remember when I was on the plane to Montreal I was watching Star Trek in French to get back in shape and I noticed Spock calls Kirk "vous" so I decieded it was probably a good idea to call everyone "vous" just to be sure.

It's really anoying when there are multiple honorifics that and the same ones can be offencive or friendly in the wrong context, like Japanese for instance. I get around it in the worst way possible by calling all my young female friends by masculin terms, mostly "bro" or "dude". It's probably because I live in Hippy-Town Canada, but they seem to be quite alright with it.


all languages have "polite and deferential" speech and "colloquial" speech. I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but north america seems to have lost a lot of that from the English language.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
February 27 2012 19:01 GMT
#106
Does it really matter is my only question. It has no meaning to me. I really don't care what people call me either for that matter but more power to the women of France I guess.
Heweree
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom497 Posts
February 27 2012 19:05 GMT
#107
Who gives a fuck seriously. Feminism okay, but that. I found mademoiselle pretty cute, like miss. Actually nowadays it's more about the age than the matrimonial situation.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35146 Posts
February 27 2012 19:10 GMT
#108
I think this is a non-issue for the most part.
wunsun
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada622 Posts
February 27 2012 19:17 GMT
#109
...

I think there probably are a lot of other things that the government should be spending time. At least to me, it doesn't seem like a big problem, or a problem at all. Does it really matter that females have two identifiers (Mrs and Miss)? I just see it as part of our culture or tradition as a sense, and I don't see it as anti-female at all.
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
February 27 2012 19:21 GMT
#110
As far as I can tell, they only removed Mademoiselle from official forms. Nobody stops you from using it in any other situation. It only allows women to not disclose their matrimonial status in case they don't want to and don't have to.

Not really worth making a fuss about, and certainly doesn't seem like something to oppose at all.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Psychobabas
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
2531 Posts
February 27 2012 19:29 GMT
#111
On February 28 2012 01:04 Bigpet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2012 00:09 Psychobabas wrote:
Good stuff, now open jobs like day care, social workers, care assistants, front desk (example: receptionists, retail sales) to males.


They are open to males. It's just that either the employer doesn't want them there (thinks women are statistically more likely to be better at communicating or thinks that they would disrupt the predominantly female work environment) or men just don't want those jobs. There is no law prohibiting men to enact those jobs.

The only thing that government could do would be to enact a law that enforces a male/female quota in those jobs and that won't benefit anybody.


Exactly, and you bet your bottom dollar (or euro) that if that was the case with female workers we would have a whole feminist campaign.

No guy can actually expect to get work as a receptionist or in day care (this is also because of the hidden perception that: guy works in daycare? = possible pedophile!!!). It's true that most guys wouldnt want to be in reception but still it would be nice to have an option especially in this tough economic climate.
Anytus
Profile Joined September 2010
United States258 Posts
February 27 2012 19:32 GMT
#112
Language is arbitrary, it has only the meaning we assign to it. I'd be very surprised if we could find a large group of people who assign a prejudiced meaning to this kind of language or use it in a discriminatory way. Instead of trying to change the outward expressions of gender inequality, we should be focusing on it causes. This type of action is like treating the symptoms of a disease and then proclaiming the person 'cured.'

Although the use of marital-status specific language may have originally developed with discrimination in mind (or as an unintended side-effect), I challenge anyone to find concrete evidence (in the form of a scientific paper/study) that shows that this type of language leads to real discrimination against women today. It is sort of an unfair expectation because I don't think that such a study can be done, even in principle. We can't really know if this has any effect at all and afterwards we won't know if it has really helped anything. It just sounds like we're chasing the specter of gender inequality.

If this change makes an appreciable positive difference in the life of any woman I ever meet, I think I'll eat my shirt on the spot.
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
February 27 2012 19:37 GMT
#113
On February 28 2012 03:19 Spieltor wrote:
let's make everyone transsexuals and solve the problem of sexuality once and for all.

I feel the whole "hiding or masking sexual identity or race or color for "equality"" thing to be a joke. Differences between one person and another always exist, denying differences and covering them up for the sake of PC is what generally harms people in the long run.

Here's a reasonable question. if we're expunging the use of feminine traits, does that mean we're only allowing "male" or "neutral"? That sounds more like gender suppression than "equality". A lot of people don't think of it this way, even though that's what happens. Even the so called "Server" instead of "waiter/waitress". The word "server" implies male characteristics because the word itself is inherently masculine. Just like -to and -ta in Spanish.

Language is inherently categorizing because the human mind is inherently a categorizing machine.

How can this be a win for feminists?

We always seem to want to play the gender card in the case of the culpability of males vs females for instance. There is a poll on http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5665921#5665932
and http://www.wnd.com/2006/03/35370/

For these kinds of things to stop being doubel standards would be either to treat females as harshly as males or to treat males as leniently as females.

Show nested quote +
On February 28 2012 00:51 Parsistamon wrote:
I think that official forms and documents is hardly the stuff of culture. I'm for it, such often unnoticed things can definitely have a psychological impact.


those "official forms" exist because of culture and society.



Greatest post in the thread so far. Thanks for that. =)
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Jetaap
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France4814 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-27 19:48:14
February 27 2012 19:47 GMT
#114
On February 28 2012 03:30 Ansinjunger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2012 03:29 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
getting rid of beautiful innocent words , great achievement.


It's okay, we've got a new word: swapportunity.


People are misenterpreting this: mademoiselle did not disapear from the French language, only from the administrative forms... I think it's completly fair to say that women should not have to give their marital status if they don't wish to and if it's not necessary.
Mademoiselle will still be used, but its meaning is shifting and is now more likely to mean "young lady".
Beorning
Profile Joined June 2011
United States243 Posts
February 27 2012 19:53 GMT
#115
I always say Ma'am or Miss, based on age. Except I had a teacher in high school that called herself Miss instead of Mrs, though she had long been married. So wait, is France doing the opposite of American feminists, going to calling everyone Ma'am? Or am I confused.
HotShizz
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
France710 Posts
February 27 2012 19:58 GMT
#116
On February 28 2012 00:19 Erasme wrote:
This isn't a victory, it's rather sad. But I'll still use it : ]


Ditto. What a silly state of affairs. I am sorry but its not like saying, Pardon mademoiselle is equivalent to, excuse me, whore. It's a title, a polite title. I think we should stop asking for the nom jeune fille. It sounds like you can only not be married when you are young. Maybe it should be nom de naissance, because not all women get married. It's derogatory and against women's rights. Maybe we should make it illegal to hold a door for a woman as well, because that makes her feel like she can't do it for herself. And let her get on the metro before you? Fuck that shit as well. Shove the hag down (like most other Parisians do anyway :D)

Not a victory for anyone, just a waste of time.
HereBeDragons
Profile Joined May 2011
1429 Posts
February 27 2012 20:15 GMT
#117
On February 28 2012 04:58 HotShizz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2012 00:19 Erasme wrote:
This isn't a victory, it's rather sad. But I'll still use it : ]


Ditto. What a silly state of affairs. I am sorry but its not like saying, Pardon mademoiselle is equivalent to, excuse me, whore. It's a title, a polite title. I think we should stop asking for the nom jeune fille. It sounds like you can only not be married when you are young. Maybe it should be nom de naissance, because not all women get married. It's derogatory and against women's rights. Maybe we should make it illegal to hold a door for a woman as well, because that makes her feel like she can't do it for herself. And let her get on the metro before you? Fuck that shit as well. Shove the hag down (like most other Parisians do anyway :D)

Not a victory for anyone, just a waste of time.


Ahahaha, can't stop laughing, that made my day.
Proseat
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Germany5113 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-27 20:25:58
February 27 2012 20:18 GMT
#118
On February 28 2012 03:54 Spieltor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2012 03:48 mister.bubbles wrote:
Argh! I hate when there are complicated honorifics in a language, it confuses me so much. I remember when I was on the plane to Montreal I was watching Star Trek in French to get back in shape and I noticed Spock calls Kirk "vous" so I decieded it was probably a good idea to call everyone "vous" just to be sure.

It's really anoying when there are multiple honorifics that and the same ones can be offencive or friendly in the wrong context, like Japanese for instance. I get around it in the worst way possible by calling all my young female friends by masculin terms, mostly "bro" or "dude". It's probably because I live in Hippy-Town Canada, but they seem to be quite alright with it.


all languages have "polite and deferential" speech and "colloquial" speech. I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but north america seems to have lost a lot of that from the English language.


Well, if I am not mistaken, English has basically completely switched to the honorific form of pronouns. A few centuries ago, the more personal pronoun was "thou" (like "tu" in French, "du" in German) while "you" (like "vous" in French, "Sie" in German) was the more honorific form.

EDIT: relevant link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T–V_distinction
Modern English does not have a T–V pronoun distinction. In earlier versions of English, thou and thee were the T-forms of the second person singular, while ye and you constituted the V-forms. The T-forms, however, became stigmatised, and disappeared from ordinary speech, leaving the original V-form, you, the only active second-person pronoun. Thou and thee survive chiefly as archaisms. To a modern English speaker unaware of the origin of the distinction, the use of thou (for example in prayer), originally a sign of intimacy, now has connotations of formality due to its ceremonial character.
The Rise and Fall of SlayerS -- a timeline: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=378097
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-27 20:57:13
February 27 2012 20:54 GMT
#119
Don't be mistaken : we will continue to mademoiselle French ladies to make them know they're special.

On February 28 2012 04:58 HotShizz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2012 00:19 Erasme wrote:
This isn't a victory, it's rather sad. But I'll still use it : ]


Ditto. What a silly state of affairs. I am sorry but its not like saying, Pardon mademoiselle is equivalent to, excuse me, whore. It's a title, a polite title. I think we should stop asking for the nom jeune fille. It sounds like you can only not be married when you are young. Maybe it should be nom de naissance, because not all women get married. It's derogatory and against women's rights. Maybe we should make it illegal to hold a door for a woman as well, because that makes her feel like she can't do it for herself. And let her get on the metro before you? Fuck that shit as well. Shove the hag down (like most other Parisians do anyway :D)

Not a victory for anyone, just a waste of time.



You're thinking too much. This starts with a very simple right, the right to mind your own business. Married or not? Not your business. It's purely a matter of privacy when filling paperwork.
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
Kleinmuuhg
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Vanuatu4091 Posts
February 27 2012 21:03 GMT
#120
On February 28 2012 04:47 Jetaap wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2012 03:30 Ansinjunger wrote:
On February 28 2012 03:29 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
getting rid of beautiful innocent words , great achievement.


It's okay, we've got a new word: swapportunity.


People are misenterpreting this: mademoiselle did not disapear from the French language, only from the administrative forms... I think it's completly fair to say that women should not have to give their marital status if they don't wish to and if it's not necessary.
Mademoiselle will still be used, but its meaning is shifting and is now more likely to mean "young lady".

that'd be okay then, i guess
This is our town, scrub
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