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emc
United States3088 Posts
On February 28 2012 00:44 Agathon wrote: Yep, a feminist association. But "Chiennes" means "Female dogs", in french (even it's sometimes used as biteches aswell). The message is "If you piss womens off, we bite you". in america bitches also means female dogs ^_^ thats a funny saying | ||
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TS-Rupbar
Sweden1089 Posts
On February 28 2012 01:43 Nouar wrote: Oppressing ? Lol. Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional. The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not). | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On February 28 2012 01:49 TS-Rupbar wrote: Did you ever stop to think that we wouldn't have this problem if there was no differentation? I think this can be somewhat compared to the Swedish revolution of "du" (singular you or tu in French) and "ni" (plural you or vous in French). Ni was used to address someone of a higher status in a hierarchy. Singular "ni" is now always replaced by "du", no matter the status of the person you are talking to. I'd even find it weird to address royalty as "ni" now. Language can be (and is!) a tool for oppression! "Vous" doesn't always imply higher status, it can also means that you are not close of the person. It is the formal way to talk. Actually you will often use "vous" to talk with people of "lesser status", just to let them know that you are not close lol. I hate when people i don't know use "tu". | ||
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Yggdrasil Leaf
221 Posts
Cool... | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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Golbat
United States499 Posts
This is no more a victory for anyone than if the president of the NFL officially renamed american football to "Handegg" | ||
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nepeta
1872 Posts
On February 28 2012 01:53 Jibba wrote: Yes. Rhetoric, propaganda, subtle indoctrination. I'd hope people in a thread on French linguistics have had some background with Foucault. How odd, he never struck me as the righteous type. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On February 28 2012 01:58 Boblion wrote: "Vous" doesn't always imply higher status, it can also means that you are not close of the person. It is the formal way to talk. Actually you will often use "vous" to talk with people of "lesser status", just to let them know that you are not close lol. I hate when people i don't know use "tu". I hate it that I have to go through all that vous vs tu nonsense when speaking to French people  In Spain everyone says "tu" most of the time and I prefer that so much more, feels less snobbish and cold. There's less "HI I DON'T KNOW YOU GET AWAY" vibe to their language and it seems apparent among the people's personality. Of course this is based from my limited experience and standpoint. On February 28 2012 02:01 Golbat wrote: I mean, to be perfectly honest, I've always like the way mademoiselle sounded. If I was a girl, I would want to be called mademoiselle, even if I were married. This is no more a victory for anyone than if the president of the NFL officially renamed american football to "Handegg" I think it's more of people not liking to be labeled as an old non-virgin so they fused both together an avoided the distinction. Funny how I read some threads in Wordreference and from what I've gathered people in Mexico should call women señorita whereas in Spain they should call women señora if they don't know them. In other words, in Mexico they made everyone young and in Spain (and France is trying) they made everyone respected. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting. The english equivalent is "little lady". | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On February 28 2012 01:54 TS-Rupbar wrote: The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not). Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term. As far as forms go, yes there was a checkbox with mademoiselle, but there is ANOTHER checkbox with the marital status, single, couple, married, divorced etc. This one is compulsory, whereas the madame/mademoiselle was a matter of what you'd like to see on the envelope when you are sent an official letter. It has no legal value. Women had the choice, and most would put mademoiselle out of habit or just because they are proud of it. I've never in my life met a single girl/woman/old lady bitching on that term. If you want to get to oppressing women, having their married last name being the one of her husband is worse. And I believe it's not even compulsory anymore. I'd have liked it a lot if they actually checked the opinion of women on that before passing that, instead of only a few hardcore feminists lobbying. (Let's not talk about the 65+yo tight assed women politicians forming the bulk of ladies there.) Ok there isn't anymore the same term for men, so "omg it's not equaaaaal", yeah, maybe... but before that, maybe changing the french language which plural is always masculine if there's *one* masculine term in it would be more important ? THAT is sexism in the language... Mademoiselle ? Barely cultural, from a french tradition of courting damsels, and in no way discriminative since it was optional. @ Jibba : any litteral translation of "Little lady" would be slightly insulting and condescendant/paternal when saying it, in our language, whereas mademoiselle is the opposite actually. | ||
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Marou
Germany1371 Posts
This is typical politics and it makes me want to throw up when i see this debate being in the front of the news. edit : yeah i'm happy for the 10 crazy bitches that cared about it tho, i see that it's not normal that women have to precise their martial status in forms whereas men doesn't have to... ~_~ i wonder what the next useless debate will be in the media. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On February 28 2012 02:10 JieXian wrote: I hate it that I have to go through all that vous vs tu nonsense when speaking to French people In Spain everyone says "tu" most of the time and I prefer that so much more, feels less snobbish and cold. There's less "HI I DON'T KNOW YOU GET AWAY" vibe to their language and it seems apparent among the people's personality. Of course this is based from my limited experience and standpoint. I know that they don't use it on a daily basis but Spanish people have "usted/ustedes" too. I prefer the French system since i don't really like the hypocrisy and the fake closeness of using "tu" with everyone. It feels so ankward, especially with people older than me. I guess i'm just used to it lol. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On February 28 2012 02:18 Marou wrote: It's a complete non issue, and we shouldn't even be talking about that. This is yet another move to occupy media space with useless debate on things that pretty much every body doesn't give a single fuck. There are so many topics that deserve to be put in the front rather than this, even on the subject of woman right. This is typical politics and it makes me want to throw up when i see this debate being in the front of the news. edit : yeah i'm happy for the 10 crazy bitches that cared about it tho, i see that it's not normal that women have to precise their martial status in forms whereas men doesn't have to... ~_~ In all important forms you have a marital field anyway : "celibataire/marié/concubinage/divorcé/enfants".... that mademoiselle field was cosmetic anyway. So yes, men have to tell their marital status, too. | ||
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Flaccid
8919 Posts
Is it? When I learned french it was taught to me as 'young lady', as it was to everyone else I know who speaks french. And madame was never taught with its historical meaning either - it was always just a more 'general' term. Literal translations can lose all meaning between languages, so I don't think it's fair to take it's literal meaning in english as a direct correlation to its literal meaning in french. This is what I meant by my previous example about the words my wife's culture uses for husband and wife. | ||
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
But it's not. The equivalent of demoiselle is damsel. The equivalent of mademoiselle is literally "My damsel" but more equivalent in meaning to "Ms." or "young lady". | ||
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HereBeDragons
1429 Posts
On February 28 2012 02:10 JieXian wrote: I hate it that I have to go through all that vous vs tu nonsense when speaking to French people In Spain everyone says "tu" most of the time and I prefer that so much more, feels less snobbish and cold. There's less "HI I DON'T KNOW YOU GET AWAY" vibe to their language and it seems apparent among the people's personality. Of course this is based from my limited experience and standpoint. I think it's more of people not liking to be labeled as an old non-virgin so they fused both together an avoided the distinction. Funny how I read some threads in Wordreference and from what I've gathered people in Mexico should call women señorita whereas in Spain they should call women señora if they don't know them. I feel that the distinction of the pronouns as "tu" and "vous" is well justified, especially with women. Some ladies don't like to be forced to do cheek-kisses(faire la bise) with someone they don't know very well (at the same time a lot of people don't mind this). It helps avoids those awkward moments where you have to decide if you want to offer a handshake or your cheek to her and not look like a pervert, especially when the age difference comes into play. I don't know, maybe the native french won't feel it as unnatural as I do. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On February 28 2012 02:19 Boblion wrote: I know that they don't use it on a daily basis but Spanish people have "usted/ustedes" too. I prefer the French system since i don't really like the hypocrisy and the fake closeness of using "tu" with everyone. It feels so ankward, especially with people older than me. I guess i'm just used to it lol. That's my point, it's in the culture and language to keep a certain distant away from people using specific words and obviously that'll influence the speaker's mindset, where "closeness" would seem fake and hypocritical. I don't know if the Spanish are faking it (at least I didn't feel it) but in certain ways the French have similarities with the Chinese/Japanese/Koreans. | ||
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Nevermind86
Somalia429 Posts
That's what feminism is all about anyways, passing legislation to change words or add new words, they did it in my country in the constitution (Venezuela), even the new words added didn't even exist in the language before, people say it the feminist way to make fun of how ridicolous it sounds (for example a woman judge, would be called "jueza", the correct spanish would be "juez", it is a non-gender word, you just add the pronoun "La juez" to make the distiction). And at the end of the day nothing changes, except another piece of paper in some meaningless archive and women are still discriminated in some type of jobs. I even wonder sometimes if that will ever change, because it's part of human nature you know, of course some people like with racism blow it out of proportion (a lot) but a woman police"man" always gets the fun jokes, etc... | ||
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Marou
Germany1371 Posts
On February 28 2012 02:22 Nouar wrote: In all important forms you have a marital field anyway : "celibataire/marié/concubinage/divorcé/enfants".... that mademoiselle field was cosmetic anyway. So yes, men have to tell their marital status, too. You make a good point here...showing how useless this change is T__T | ||
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