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On February 28 2012 00:14 Zren89 wrote:Wow, I know that after the fifties and sixties the Germans Kind of did the same thing with Fraulein Now its just Frau, no distinction. the homogenization of langauge, not just between languages and dialects, but even within the language as a whole (based on cultural shifts) is not really something new, what will be will be, either this will catch on with the population as a whole, and mademoiselle will go away and no one will say it much anymore (with the possible exception of more senior members of society, you know old people) regardless of what happens, its interesting to me that any government can mandate what should and should not be said by its citizens. I can't imagine that those two feminist groups speak for the vast majority when they lobby the govt of France. Interesting post, not sure what to think of it. On one hand, distinguishing between women on the basis of maritial status is a bit old-fashioned but I'm sure that it is also quite endearing (much like opening a door for someone of the opposite sex [a woman opened a door for me on a first date once, I was extremely flattered  ] or taking there coat) sometimes its just being polite, not alluding to the archaic idea that women are somehow inferior. It's a complex issue, and its still being worked out, I would appreciate updates as they happen. It would be very interesting to see how this affects peer relationships (if at all) in France. Aussi, Ca va bein! Et toi?
You said either and then you only provided one option D:. It's bothering me T.T.
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On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote:
This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Hmm, I hadn't really thought of it that way but it is a good point. I agree.
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On February 28 2012 00:09 Psychobabas wrote:
Good stuff, now open jobs like day care, social workers, care assistants, front desk (example: receptionists, retail sales) to males.
They are open to males. It's just that either the employer doesn't want them there (thinks women are statistically more likely to be better at communicating or thinks that they would disrupt the predominantly female work environment) or men just don't want those jobs. There is no law prohibiting men to enact those jobs.
The only thing that government could do would be to enact a law that enforces a male/female quota in those jobs and that won't benefit anybody.
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On February 28 2012 01:04 Bigpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 00:09 Psychobabas wrote:
Good stuff, now open jobs like day care, social workers, care assistants, front desk (example: receptionists, retail sales) to males. They are open to males. It's just that either the employer doesn't want them there (thinks women are statistically more likely to be better at communicating or thinks that they would disrupt the predominantly female work environment) or men just don't want those jobs. There is no law prohibiting men to enact those jobs. The only thing that government could do would be to enact a law that enforces a male/female quota in those jobs and that won't benefit anybody.
Well that's rather sexist. They should get sued for sexism!
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On February 27 2012 23:52 Le French wrote:
In general terms, I am curious to see how this will affect France society and culture as a whole, except for massive reprinting of forms
He instructed that old forms should remain in circulation until the “exhaustion of stocks.” hahaha
On one had they are slowly giving in, but on the other hand it's nothing great and they can claim more credit then they should
On February 28 2012 00:44 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 00:32 JieXian wrote:
" Les Chiennes de Garde " hahahahahahahahaha
Guard bitches Yep, a feminist association. But "Chiennes" means "Female dogs", in french (even it's sometimes used as biteches aswell). The message is "If you piss womens off, we bite you" There is another one with a weird name "Ni pute, ni soumise", "Neither whore, neither submitive". Both are a bit extremist in my opinion, but i guess they help a bit the womens conditions in France, and it's good.
wow ok thanks for the info
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in the west this small stuff is seen as "oppresion" of women.
in the middle east women would love to have that freedom...
just sayin
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Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful.
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On February 28 2012 01:09 keiraknightlee wrote:
in the west this small stuff is seen as "oppresion" of women.
in the middle east women would love to have that freedom...
just sayin
Let's not get started on the list of things the west takes for granted shall we :D
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United States22883 Posts
It exists in some form in English and I know in Turkish as well. The classic terms for young women centered around virginity and marriage.
On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote:
Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful.
Language is one of the primary tools for oppression. Don't be so quick to discount something, and then attribute it as a waste of time for an entire group of people when in reality only a small amount of people used a small amount of time to create the change.
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On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote:
Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful.
Perhaps they work with many issues at the same time and perhaps some of the issues regarding feminism are more easily solved than others. So spare us your condescending comments.
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On February 28 2012 01:09 keiraknightlee wrote:
in the west this small stuff is seen as "oppresion" of women.
in the middle east women would love to have that freedom...
just sayin
Le diable est dans les détails, je pense?
Little things change cultural perspective.
Cultural perspective is important. Hegelian history anyone?
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When I call young, French women "madame", they get mad at me for inferring that they are somehow old and married =P
There is nothing derogatory about terms such as 'miss' or 'mademoiselle'. Are these terms oppressive? I suppose we should ask women - and not just the vocal minority of extremists who exist in every sub-group. Perhaps they should also make it law that a woman cannot change her last name once married - rather, both partners must use hyphenated surnames. And notice I used the word 'partners' as the traditional terms of 'husband' and 'wife' can bring with them historically images of indentured servitude and thus must also be removed.
Language can never be perfectly inoffensive as it carries within it the richness of culture and history. While I (and everyone else) can agree with certain language being taboo - such as dramatically derogatory terms - this hardly seems to fit the bill. The way that we use language nowadays is awful. It is so incredibly rare to hear someone speak something in an interesting and unique way - the poetry of language is either dying or is long dead. So I can't help but be discouraged to see the sacrifice of cultural significance and history in language for the sake of cheap political posturing and political correctness. We're vanilla enough as it is.
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I live in France and indeed, it would be quite interesting to see how people will utilize this. The OP described the dilemma of the usage perfectly. In a classroom for example, the students and the teacher usually interact using honorifics only (because most university professors won't remember your name anyway), the use of madame to call your pupils is...nothing but awkward to me at least. I feel that at least in the current generation, people will still not call a young lady as "madame" though. Personally, I'll stick to the traditional usage for a while.
Thailand also did this something like this a few years ago, but it was in the opposite direction. Married women now have the choice to use either the equivalent of Mademoiselle or Madame to appear on their identity card/sign their names etc. If a married women wants to retain their honorific, they're "officially" able to do so.
Most of my french friends seems to think this is a good move politically, but they'll continue to use mademoiselle in their daily lives.
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I think it's unfortunate that people latch on such tiny issues and when they manage to make a change, they act like it's a big deal when in reality it's not. Congratulations to the women who fight for equality - but this is not it. You're doing it wrong.
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United States22883 Posts
Calling someone 'little lady' isn't demeaning?
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I think it's a waste of money. People need to relax and focus on more important things. If this stuff bothers you, you probably have bigger issues in your own life than general societal psychological gender oppression.
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On February 28 2012 01:20 Jibba wrote:
Calling someone 'little lady' isn't demeaning?
Depends on whether or not you're John Wayne.
Though 'young woman' is a more apt comparison. In fact, if a person learns French as a second language the term is treated directly as 'young woman', not 'unmarried woman'. Likewise, 'madame' is taught as a respectful term for a grown woman as opposed to 'married woman.'
edit:
This is a bit beside the point, but in my wife's native language, there are special terms for 'husband' and 'wife'. Translated directly to my language, they aren't exactly the nicest things two partners can call each other. In fact, if I called a white woman by this term, I'd get slapped.
But they are terms of endearment and made so throw her specific culture. And I absolutely love that I can bring this small piece of outside culture into our western home. Words don't exist in a vacuum and are the products of peoples' evolution and context.
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I've always thought the Mrs./Ms. thing in the English language to be stupid as well. I always refer to a woman as "miss", if she is significantly older than me, married or no.
On February 28 2012 01:20 Jibba wrote:
Calling someone 'little lady' isn't demeaning?
I've never seen it like that, "miss" just has a more attractive ring to it than "missus" does. I think saying "little lady" is leaning a bit too far into the youthful connotation of the word.
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Honestly this change is dumb.
I mean how can it be see as a discrimination... So when someone is reffering you as an "young men" instead of "men" you should be offended ?
But if the French feminist organizations are happy with that, guess it's great for them. But I'm not gonna stop to say "mademoiselle" to womens just because of a small percent of frenzy feminists (Cause at this point, that's what it is o_o)
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EPT
