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On February 28 2012 01:26 SnoWhiTe wrote:
Honestly this change is dumb.
I mean how can it be see as a discrimination... So when someone is reffering you as an "young men" instead of "men" you should be offended ?
But if the French feminist organizations are happy with that, guess it's great for us. But I'm not gonna stop to say "mademoiselle" to womens just because of a small percent of frenzy feminists (Cause at this point, that's what it is o_o)
Why should you have a distinction between married and unmarried females when there is no such distinction between males?
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In other news, over 50% of children in the US are now born outside of marriage. Some might not think that's a big deal, but I think SOME social traditions have some real benefits and importance to them, marriage perhaps being the most significant. We've eliminated the cultural significance of the institution, I guess it doesn't hurt to eliminate the linguistic distinction as well. I know this is supposed to be a feminist/equality issue, but I have trouble viewing it in that light. If there was an option to add the distinction towards men, I would prefer that, but of course it's easier to destroy words than to create them.
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Belgium2230 Posts
How ridiculous, but who cares. I'll keep using Mademoiselle.
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On February 28 2012 01:16 Flaccid wrote:
When I call young, French women "madame", they get mad at me for inferring that they are somehow old and married =P
There is nothing derogatory about terms such as 'miss' or 'mademoiselle'. Are these terms oppressive? I suppose we should ask women - and not just the vocal minority of extremists who exist in every sub-group. Perhaps they should also make it law that a woman cannot change her last name once married - rather, both partners must use hyphenated surnames. And notice I used the word 'partners' as the traditional terms of 'husband' and 'wife' can bring with them historically images of indentured servitude and thus must also be removed.
Language can never be perfectly inoffensive as it carries within it the richness of culture and history. While I (and everyone else) can agree with certain language being taboo - such as dramatically derogatory terms - this hardly seems to fit the bill. The way that we use language nowadays is awful. It is so incredibly rare to hear someone speak something in an interesting and unique way - the poetry of language is either dying or is long dead. So I can't help but be discouraged to see the sacrifice of cultural significance and history in language for the sake of cheap political posturing and political correctness. We're vanilla enough as it is.
It's not about banning the word in interpersonal usage, its banning the word from government documents because it has no place there. Noone is going to look at you any differently when adressing someone as mademoiselle now. This is a good thing and nothing to bitch about. It won't cost a significant amount of money, nor take up much time from government officials.
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We'll still be able to say "young demoiselle", not as pretty as mademoiselle tho. That banishement of mademoiselle did not occur in belgium (where we speak french too!) so we can still use it for now 
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On February 28 2012 01:28 FreddYCooL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 01:26 SnoWhiTe wrote:
Honestly this change is dumb.
I mean how can it be see as a discrimination... So when someone is reffering you as an "young men" instead of "men" you should be offended ?
But if the French feminist organizations are happy with that, guess it's great for us. But I'm not gonna stop to say "mademoiselle" to womens just because of a small percent of frenzy feminists (Cause at this point, that's what it is o_o) Why should you have a distinction between married and unmarried females when there is no such distinction between males?
Then add a distinction for male. But remove "mademoiselle" just because it refers to "virgin lady" is pointless. I mean it's like you can't be proud of it, but if someone is actually proud of showing she's a "mademoiselle", now she can't.
Now, it's not gonna change my life or anything. But I think this is something we shouldn't change or if it's so you can't say it's because of "discrimination". And like I said, if feminist organizations are happy it's great. But I don't think it's a victory or such thing
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On February 28 2012 01:33 Nizaris wrote:
How ridiculous, but who cares. I'll keep using Mademoiselle.
Why shouldn't you keep using it?
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On February 28 2012 01:13 Jibba wrote:It exists in some form in English and I know in Turkish as well. The classic terms for young women centered around virginity and marriage. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote:
Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful. Language is one of the primary tools for oppression. Don't be so quick to discount something, and then attribute it as a waste of time for an entire group of people when in reality only a small amount of people used a small amount of time to create the change.
Is it?
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On February 28 2012 00:28 Nouar wrote:
I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised....
(and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
From what you're saying, it seems like the term was actually a useful indicator of status. I never thought there was any issue with the use of Miss, Ms., Mrs., etc. from an US citizen's standpoint. Very interesting.
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Belgium2230 Posts
On February 28 2012 01:38 nepeta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 01:13 Jibba wrote:It exists in some form in English and I know in Turkish as well. The classic terms for young women centered around virginity and marriage. On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote:
Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful. Language is one of the primary tools for oppression. Don't be so quick to discount something, and then attribute it as a waste of time for an entire group of people when in reality only a small amount of people used a small amount of time to create the change. Is it?
primary tool? no.
Violence is the primary tool for oppression....
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I wish people would just look at history, see how obvious it is that women are being oppressed all over the world, and stop bitching about feminists. For me, a feminist is someone who: 1) believes that women are oppressed and 2) believes that women and men should be equal. Feminists then differ in beliefs about what equality is and how humanity should achieve it.
Men going around and talking shit about feminists are doing men a huge disfavor as well. Even in Sweden, where very many believe in (1) and most in (2), people do this. I hope that one day, feminists will reclaim this word.
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France: Too busy outlawing words to win wars/do anything right
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote:
This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that.
Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
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On February 28 2012 01:40 Nizaris wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 01:38 nepeta wrote:On February 28 2012 01:13 Jibba wrote:It exists in some form in English and I know in Turkish as well. The classic terms for young women centered around virginity and marriage. On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote:
Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful. Language is one of the primary tools for oppression. Don't be so quick to discount something, and then attribute it as a waste of time for an entire group of people when in reality only a small amount of people used a small amount of time to create the change. Is it? primary tool? no. Violence is the primary tool for oppression....
But the pen is mightier than the sword, you can only hurt so many people with violence, but it is virtually unlimited with words. But to get back on topic, I think this is mostly political play here to theoretically move France towards the country's motto "Liberté Egalité Fraternité" or as close as possible (or to pretend as such, depending on your perspective). It is highly unlikely that this change will be reverted I think.
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It was a formal word anyway. Only used by old people or administrative stuff. I have never used it in my life, if the woman is older than me i use "madame" + "vous" regardless of her marital status. If she is younger or the same age than me "vous" or "tu" depending of the situation and the person.
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On February 28 2012 01:39 Flamingo777 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 00:28 Nouar wrote:
I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised....
(and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...) From what you're saying, it seems like the term was actually a useful indicator of status. I never thought there was any issue with the use of Miss, Ms., Mrs., etc. from an US citizen's standpoint. Very interesting.
Did you ever stop to think that we wouldn't have this problem if there was no differentation?
I think this can be somewhat compared to the Swedish revolution of "du" (singular you or tu in French) and "ni" (plural you or vous in French). Ni was used to address someone of a higher status in a hierarchy. Singular "ni" is now always replaced by "du", no matter the status of the person you are talking to. I'd even find it weird to address royalty as "ni" now.
Language can be (and is!) a tool for oppression!
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On February 28 2012 01:43 BlondeOna wrote:
France: Too busy outlawing words to win wars/do anything right
That's witty and new!
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United States22883 Posts
On February 28 2012 01:38 nepeta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 01:13 Jibba wrote:It exists in some form in English and I know in Turkish as well. The classic terms for young women centered around virginity and marriage. On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote:
Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful. Language is one of the primary tools for oppression. Don't be so quick to discount something, and then attribute it as a waste of time for an entire group of people when in reality only a small amount of people used a small amount of time to create the change. Is it? Yes. Rhetoric, propaganda, subtle indoctrination. I'd hope people in a thread on French linguistics have had some background with Foucault.
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EPT
