France, especially the women's groups, are ecstatic over the state memorandum issued by Prime Minister François Fillon recently! The memo ordered the honorific "mademoiselle — akin to “damsel” and the equivalent of “miss” — banished from official forms and registries. The use of “mademoiselle,” he wrote, made reference “without justification nor necessity” to a woman’s “matrimonial situation,” whereas “monsieur” has long signified simply “sir.”
Truly, this is another victory for women's rights in specific, and human equality in general. This move has been lobbied for almost a year mainly by two French feminist organizations “Osez le féminisme!” (“Dare to be feminist!”) and Les Chiennes de Garde (The Watchdogs). The groups claim that this distinction is inherently gender insensitive as it discriminates between women's marital status.
To be honest, I am personally torn with this issue? We have a saying in French that goes something like "say 'mademoiselle' with sweetness and tenderness, as you would a virgin lady, and 'madame' with firmness and honor, as any woman." I understand that being French is naturally linked with being romantic, even the language displays this characteristic, and this is why I think madamoiselle is a necessary distinction. You will notice that 'madame' gives no clue on the marital status, thus in actual social etiquette, it is used as a guage on ones interest or attraction in a woman who's marital status is not know. That's why when, as a joke among French say, a French guy approaches a woman as "mademoiselle", it is an obvious indication of interest, while "madame" just signifies politeness, and even cordial uninterest. My main argument against this memo is that these are uniqueness and richness of culture. Even some quarters are saying this is extreme feminism on the price of culture. On the other hand, I completely understand that one's marital status should hold no bearing on one's social functions and records, especially that men are not subject to such "discrimination".
In general terms, I am curious to see how this will affect France society and culture as a whole, except for massive reprinting of forms (which by standard require people to choose among mademoiselle, madame, and monsieur). Will the people even catch on with it? What do you think of this proclamation? Will English and the rest of the countries Latin-based languages differentiating single women from married ones follow suit?
Comme nous le réclamions en septembre dernier, le Premier ministre a signé une nouvelle circulaire, datée de mardi 21 février, pour faire disparaître des formulaires administratifs la mention "mademoiselle" a profit de "madame" et remplacer la notion de "nom de jeune fille" et "nom d'épouse", par "nom de famille" et "nom d'usage", plus neutres et mixtes.
Plusieurs circulaires avaient déjà appelé les administrations à éviter l'emploi de ces mentions "se référant à la situation matrimoniale des femmes "sans justification, ni nécessité". Le document rappelle que "ces mentions ne constituent pas un élément d'état civil" et que "l'emploi de la civilité "Madame" devra être privilégié, comme l'équivalent de Monsieur pour les hommes, qui préjuge pas de la situation maritale de ces derniers."
Le terme de nom de jeune fille est supprimé au profit de "nom de famille" "au regard de la possibilité reconnue à un homme marié de prendre le nom de son épouse comme nom d'usage."
Osez le féminisme ! et les Chiennes de Garde se félicitent de la publication par les services du Premier Ministre d’une circulaire supprimant les termes « Mademoiselle », « nom de jeune fille » et « nom d’épouse » des formulaires administratifs.
Cette circulaire était une des principales revendications de notre campagne « Mademoiselle, la case en trop » lancée en septembre dernier.
Nous saluons également l’action des communes de Cesson Sévigné et de Fontenay-sous-Bois qui ont supprimé ces termes ces dernières semaines.
Nous demandons au gouvernement et aux services administratifs concernés de veiller à l’application de cette circulaire. Nous ne nous satisferons pas de simples déclarations : nous voulons des résultats concrets.
Osez le féminisme ! et les Chiennes de Garde ré-interpellerons les politiques sur ce sujet tant que nécessaire.
Nous invitons également les entreprises et les organismes privés à suivre le mouvement en supprimant les termes « Mademoiselle », « nom de jeune fille » et « nom d’épouse » de tous leurs formulaires.
Osez le féminisme et les chiennes de garde 21/02/12
Vous ne vous êtes jamais demandé pourquoi on n'appelait pas un homme célibataire « Mondamoiseau », voire « jeune puceau » ? Pas étonnant, ce type de distinction est réservé aux femmes…En effet, en France, en 2011, les femmes et les hommes ne sont toujours pas logés à la même enseigne : civilité unique pour les hommes, double civilité pour les femmes !
Osez le féminisme et les Chiennes de garde avaient lancé une campagne intitulée « Mademoiselle, la case en trop » en septembre dernier pour rappeler que la distinction Madame/Mademoiselle n’est ni flatteuse, ni obligatoire. Et surtout, qu’elle est le signe du sexisme ordinaire qui perdure dans notre société.
Cette campagne avait vocation à mettre fin à cette inégalité, mais aussi à informer les femmes de leurs droits et à mettre à leur disposition des outils pour faire changer leur civilité.C'est aujourd'hui chose faite!
So, is this the equivalent of getting rid of Ms. from English? If so that would be slightly awesome, considering that I can never figure out whether to say Miss, Miz, Missus, etc. Although I have to say that changing language as subtle as that is no major improvement in women's rights, I can see the point. Although I do like the word, "Mademoiselle"... a pretty word.
I'm all for women's rights, but isn't this kind of a non-issue that they solved? It would be a bigger deal if they broke the glass ceiling separating men and women in the workplace. Well, in any case, good for them. I guess it's a bit tough for me to understand, being a male, but I suppose it's a step in the right direction.
Wow, I know that after the fifties and sixties the Germans Kind of did the same thing with Fraulein Now its just Frau, no distinction. the homogenization of langauge, not just between languages and dialects, but even within the language as a whole (based on cultural shifts) is not really something new, what will be will be, either this will catch on with the population as a whole, and mademoiselle will go away and no one will say it much anymore (with the possible exception of more senior members of society, you know old people) or it will effect interpersonal communication in no way shape or form regardless of what happens, its interesting to me that any government can mandate what can and cannot be said in an official document pertaining to the freedoms of its citizens; of course I think its odd that you can't wear religious items in public buildings in France either O.o. I can't imagine that those two feminist groups speak for the vast majority when they lobby their agendas to the govt of France.
Interesting post, not sure what to think of it. On one hand, distinguishing between women on the basis of maritial status is a bit old-fashioned but I'm sure that it is also quite endearing (much like opening a door for someone of the opposite sex [a woman opened a door for me on a first date once, I was extremely flattered ] or taking their coat) sometimes its just being polite, not alluding to the archaic idea that women are somehow inferior. It's a complex issue, and it's still being worked out, I would appreciate updates as they happen.
It would be very interesting to see how this affects peer relationships (if at all) in France. Aussi, Ca va bein! Et toi?
I've always thought it was ridiculous and most "feminist movements" always miss their target. It's sad to see them fight against the "mademoiselle" and don't try to understand what is behind the "madame".
Inequality between genders are always misinterpreted or viewed in a way too simple way. It's depressing. But well if people think it's a victory, then so be it.
How progressive of the French! English speakers must be rid of "Miss" and Spanish speakers must abandon "Señorita" right away, because acknowledging a woman as single is terrible!
I'm very liberal, but feminism, just like any rights group, sometimes goes after completely and utterly petty, inconsequential shit sometimes, and this is just such an example. Meanwhile in the United States, an entire political party, the "Republican Party", is launching an all out war on women's rights; where is the backlash?
On February 28 2012 00:07 Bourneq wrote: Finnaly! I hope the rest of the world will follow.
(West) Germany abolished the official use of its Fräulein (Fraeulein, Fraulein) diminutive title for unmarried women already back in the 1970s, on Februar 16, 1971 to be exact (completely banned in 1972).
I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised.... (and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
There has to be something more productive than this they could be focusing on...
To consider this a victory...wow. Sometimes it's hard (in the U.S.) to figure out whether you should say Ms. or Mrs. but at the same time, it's really not a big deal. Of all the women's rights violations going on in the world (I know nothing about the situation for women in France) this seems like such small potatoes.
On February 28 2012 00:28 Nouar wrote: I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised.... (and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
Exactly how my friends see this. They don't mind mademoiselle at all. They're actually happy to be called that.
This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
On February 28 2012 00:32 JieXian wrote: " Les Chiennes de Garde " hahahahahahahahaha
Guard bitches
Yep, a feminist association. But "Chiennes" means "Female dogs", in french (even it's sometimes used as biteches aswell). The message is "If you piss womens off, we bite you"
There is another one with a weird name "Ni pute, ni soumise", "Neither whore, neither submitive".
Both are a bit extremist in my opinion, but i guess they help a bit the womens conditions in France, and it's good.
I think that official forms and documents is hardly the stuff of culture. I'm for it, such often unnoticed things can definitely have a psychological impact.
On February 28 2012 00:14 Zren89 wrote: Wow, I know that after the fifties and sixties the Germans Kind of did the same thing with Fraulein Now its just Frau, no distinction. the homogenization of langauge, not just between languages and dialects, but even within the language as a whole (based on cultural shifts) is not really something new, what will be will be, either this will catch on with the population as a whole, and mademoiselle will go away and no one will say it much anymore (with the possible exception of more senior members of society, you know old people) regardless of what happens, its interesting to me that any government can mandate what should and should not be said by its citizens. I can't imagine that those two feminist groups speak for the vast majority when they lobby the govt of France.
Interesting post, not sure what to think of it. On one hand, distinguishing between women on the basis of maritial status is a bit old-fashioned but I'm sure that it is also quite endearing (much like opening a door for someone of the opposite sex [a woman opened a door for me on a first date once, I was extremely flattered ] or taking there coat) sometimes its just being polite, not alluding to the archaic idea that women are somehow inferior. It's a complex issue, and its still being worked out, I would appreciate updates as they happen.
It would be very interesting to see how this affects peer relationships (if at all) in France. Aussi, Ca va bein! Et toi?
You said either and then you only provided one option D:. It's bothering me T.T.
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Hmm, I hadn't really thought of it that way but it is a good point. I agree.
On February 28 2012 00:09 Psychobabas wrote: Good stuff, now open jobs like day care, social workers, care assistants, front desk (example: receptionists, retail sales) to males.
They are open to males. It's just that either the employer doesn't want them there (thinks women are statistically more likely to be better at communicating or thinks that they would disrupt the predominantly female work environment) or men just don't want those jobs. There is no law prohibiting men to enact those jobs.
The only thing that government could do would be to enact a law that enforces a male/female quota in those jobs and that won't benefit anybody.
On February 28 2012 00:09 Psychobabas wrote: Good stuff, now open jobs like day care, social workers, care assistants, front desk (example: receptionists, retail sales) to males.
They are open to males. It's just that either the employer doesn't want them there (thinks women are statistically more likely to be better at communicating or thinks that they would disrupt the predominantly female work environment) or men just don't want those jobs. There is no law prohibiting men to enact those jobs.
The only thing that government could do would be to enact a law that enforces a male/female quota in those jobs and that won't benefit anybody.
Well that's rather sexist. They should get sued for sexism!
On February 27 2012 23:52 Le French wrote: In general terms, I am curious to see how this will affect France society and culture as a whole, except for massive reprinting of forms
He instructed that old forms should remain in circulation until the “exhaustion of stocks.” hahaha
On one had they are slowly giving in, but on the other hand it's nothing great and they can claim more credit then they should
On February 28 2012 00:32 JieXian wrote: " Les Chiennes de Garde " hahahahahahahahaha
Guard bitches
Yep, a feminist association. But "Chiennes" means "Female dogs", in french (even it's sometimes used as biteches aswell). The message is "If you piss womens off, we bite you"
There is another one with a weird name "Ni pute, ni soumise", "Neither whore, neither submitive".
Both are a bit extremist in my opinion, but i guess they help a bit the womens conditions in France, and it's good.
Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful.
On February 28 2012 01:09 keiraknightlee wrote: in the west this small stuff is seen as "oppresion" of women. in the middle east women would love to have that freedom... just sayin
Let's not get started on the list of things the west takes for granted shall we :D
It exists in some form in English and I know in Turkish as well. The classic terms for young women centered around virginity and marriage.
On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote: Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful.
Language is one of the primary tools for oppression. Don't be so quick to discount something, and then attribute it as a waste of time for an entire group of people when in reality only a small amount of people used a small amount of time to create the change.
On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote: Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful.
Perhaps they work with many issues at the same time and perhaps some of the issues regarding feminism are more easily solved than others. So spare us your condescending comments.
On February 28 2012 01:09 keiraknightlee wrote: in the west this small stuff is seen as "oppresion" of women. in the middle east women would love to have that freedom... just sayin
Le diable est dans les détails, je pense?
Little things change cultural perspective.
Cultural perspective is important. Hegelian history anyone?
When I call young, French women "madame", they get mad at me for inferring that they are somehow old and married =P
There is nothing derogatory about terms such as 'miss' or 'mademoiselle'. Are these terms oppressive? I suppose we should ask women - and not just the vocal minority of extremists who exist in every sub-group. Perhaps they should also make it law that a woman cannot change her last name once married - rather, both partners must use hyphenated surnames. And notice I used the word 'partners' as the traditional terms of 'husband' and 'wife' can bring with them historically images of indentured servitude and thus must also be removed.
Language can never be perfectly inoffensive as it carries within it the richness of culture and history. While I (and everyone else) can agree with certain language being taboo - such as dramatically derogatory terms - this hardly seems to fit the bill. The way that we use language nowadays is awful. It is so incredibly rare to hear someone speak something in an interesting and unique way - the poetry of language is either dying or is long dead. So I can't help but be discouraged to see the sacrifice of cultural significance and history in language for the sake of cheap political posturing and political correctness. We're vanilla enough as it is.
I live in France and indeed, it would be quite interesting to see how people will utilize this. The OP described the dilemma of the usage perfectly. In a classroom for example, the students and the teacher usually interact using honorifics only (because most university professors won't remember your name anyway), the use of madame to call your pupils is...nothing but awkward to me at least. I feel that at least in the current generation, people will still not call a young lady as "madame" though. Personally, I'll stick to the traditional usage for a while.
Thailand also did this something like this a few years ago, but it was in the opposite direction. Married women now have the choice to use either the equivalent of Mademoiselle or Madame to appear on their identity card/sign their names etc. If a married women wants to retain their honorific, they're "officially" able to do so.
Most of my french friends seems to think this is a good move politically, but they'll continue to use mademoiselle in their daily lives.
I think it's unfortunate that people latch on such tiny issues and when they manage to make a change, they act like it's a big deal when in reality it's not. Congratulations to the women who fight for equality - but this is not it. You're doing it wrong.
I think it's a waste of money. People need to relax and focus on more important things. If this stuff bothers you, you probably have bigger issues in your own life than general societal psychological gender oppression.
On February 28 2012 01:20 Jibba wrote: Calling someone 'little lady' isn't demeaning?
Depends on whether or not you're John Wayne.
Though 'young woman' is a more apt comparison. In fact, if a person learns French as a second language the term is treated directly as 'young woman', not 'unmarried woman'. Likewise, 'madame' is taught as a respectful term for a grown woman as opposed to 'married woman.'
edit:
This is a bit beside the point, but in my wife's native language, there are special terms for 'husband' and 'wife'. Translated directly to my language, they aren't exactly the nicest things two partners can call each other. In fact, if I called a white woman by this term, I'd get slapped.
But they are terms of endearment and made so throw her specific culture. And I absolutely love that I can bring this small piece of outside culture into our western home. Words don't exist in a vacuum and are the products of peoples' evolution and context.
I've always thought the Mrs./Ms. thing in the English language to be stupid as well. I always refer to a woman as "miss", if she is significantly older than me, married or no.
On February 28 2012 01:20 Jibba wrote: Calling someone 'little lady' isn't demeaning?
I've never seen it like that, "miss" just has a more attractive ring to it than "missus" does. I think saying "little lady" is leaning a bit too far into the youthful connotation of the word.
I mean how can it be see as a discrimination... So when someone is reffering you as an "young men" instead of "men" you should be offended ? But if the French feminist organizations are happy with that, guess it's great for them. But I'm not gonna stop to say "mademoiselle" to womens just because of a small percent of frenzy feminists (Cause at this point, that's what it is o_o)
On February 28 2012 01:26 SnoWhiTe wrote: Honestly this change is dumb.
I mean how can it be see as a discrimination... So when someone is reffering you as an "young men" instead of "men" you should be offended ? But if the French feminist organizations are happy with that, guess it's great for us. But I'm not gonna stop to say "mademoiselle" to womens just because of a small percent of frenzy feminists (Cause at this point, that's what it is o_o)
Why should you have a distinction between married and unmarried females when there is no such distinction between males?
In other news, over 50% of children in the US are now born outside of marriage. Some might not think that's a big deal, but I think SOME social traditions have some real benefits and importance to them, marriage perhaps being the most significant. We've eliminated the cultural significance of the institution, I guess it doesn't hurt to eliminate the linguistic distinction as well. I know this is supposed to be a feminist/equality issue, but I have trouble viewing it in that light. If there was an option to add the distinction towards men, I would prefer that, but of course it's easier to destroy words than to create them.
On February 28 2012 01:16 Flaccid wrote: When I call young, French women "madame", they get mad at me for inferring that they are somehow old and married =P
There is nothing derogatory about terms such as 'miss' or 'mademoiselle'. Are these terms oppressive? I suppose we should ask women - and not just the vocal minority of extremists who exist in every sub-group. Perhaps they should also make it law that a woman cannot change her last name once married - rather, both partners must use hyphenated surnames. And notice I used the word 'partners' as the traditional terms of 'husband' and 'wife' can bring with them historically images of indentured servitude and thus must also be removed.
Language can never be perfectly inoffensive as it carries within it the richness of culture and history. While I (and everyone else) can agree with certain language being taboo - such as dramatically derogatory terms - this hardly seems to fit the bill. The way that we use language nowadays is awful. It is so incredibly rare to hear someone speak something in an interesting and unique way - the poetry of language is either dying or is long dead. So I can't help but be discouraged to see the sacrifice of cultural significance and history in language for the sake of cheap political posturing and political correctness. We're vanilla enough as it is.
It's not about banning the word in interpersonal usage, its banning the word from government documents because it has no place there. Noone is going to look at you any differently when adressing someone as mademoiselle now. This is a good thing and nothing to bitch about. It won't cost a significant amount of money, nor take up much time from government officials.
We'll still be able to say "young demoiselle", not as pretty as mademoiselle tho. That banishement of mademoiselle did not occur in belgium (where we speak french too!) so we can still use it for now
On February 28 2012 01:26 SnoWhiTe wrote: Honestly this change is dumb.
I mean how can it be see as a discrimination... So when someone is reffering you as an "young men" instead of "men" you should be offended ? But if the French feminist organizations are happy with that, guess it's great for us. But I'm not gonna stop to say "mademoiselle" to womens just because of a small percent of frenzy feminists (Cause at this point, that's what it is o_o)
Why should you have a distinction between married and unmarried females when there is no such distinction between males?
Then add a distinction for male. But remove "mademoiselle" just because it refers to "virgin lady" is pointless. I mean it's like you can't be proud of it, but if someone is actually proud of showing she's a "mademoiselle", now she can't.
Now, it's not gonna change my life or anything. But I think this is something we shouldn't change or if it's so you can't say it's because of "discrimination". And like I said, if feminist organizations are happy it's great. But I don't think it's a victory or such thing
On February 28 2012 01:13 Jibba wrote: It exists in some form in English and I know in Turkish as well. The classic terms for young women centered around virginity and marriage.
On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote: Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful.
Language is one of the primary tools for oppression. Don't be so quick to discount something, and then attribute it as a waste of time for an entire group of people when in reality only a small amount of people used a small amount of time to create the change.
On February 28 2012 00:28 Nouar wrote: I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised.... (and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
From what you're saying, it seems like the term was actually a useful indicator of status. I never thought there was any issue with the use of Miss, Ms., Mrs., etc. from an US citizen's standpoint. Very interesting.
On February 28 2012 01:13 Jibba wrote: It exists in some form in English and I know in Turkish as well. The classic terms for young women centered around virginity and marriage.
On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote: Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful.
Language is one of the primary tools for oppression. Don't be so quick to discount something, and then attribute it as a waste of time for an entire group of people when in reality only a small amount of people used a small amount of time to create the change.
Is it?
primary tool? no. Violence is the primary tool for oppression....
I wish people would just look at history, see how obvious it is that women are being oppressed all over the world, and stop bitching about feminists. For me, a feminist is someone who: 1) believes that women are oppressed and 2) believes that women and men should be equal. Feminists then differ in beliefs about what equality is and how humanity should achieve it.
Men going around and talking shit about feminists are doing men a huge disfavor as well. Even in Sweden, where very many believe in (1) and most in (2), people do this. I hope that one day, feminists will reclaim this word.
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
On February 28 2012 01:13 Jibba wrote: It exists in some form in English and I know in Turkish as well. The classic terms for young women centered around virginity and marriage.
On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote: Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful.
Language is one of the primary tools for oppression. Don't be so quick to discount something, and then attribute it as a waste of time for an entire group of people when in reality only a small amount of people used a small amount of time to create the change.
Is it?
primary tool? no. Violence is the primary tool for oppression....
But the pen is mightier than the sword, you can only hurt so many people with violence, but it is virtually unlimited with words. But to get back on topic, I think this is mostly political play here to theoretically move France towards the country's motto "Liberté Egalité Fraternité" or as close as possible (or to pretend as such, depending on your perspective). It is highly unlikely that this change will be reverted I think.
It was a formal word anyway. Only used by old people or administrative stuff. I have never used it in my life, if the woman is older than me i use "madame" + "vous" regardless of her marital status. If she is younger or the same age than me "vous" or "tu" depending of the situation and the person.
On February 28 2012 00:28 Nouar wrote: I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised.... (and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
From what you're saying, it seems like the term was actually a useful indicator of status. I never thought there was any issue with the use of Miss, Ms., Mrs., etc. from an US citizen's standpoint. Very interesting.
Did you ever stop to think that we wouldn't have this problem if there was no differentation?
I think this can be somewhat compared to the Swedish revolution of "du" (singular you or tu in French) and "ni" (plural you or vous in French). Ni was used to address someone of a higher status in a hierarchy. Singular "ni" is now always replaced by "du", no matter the status of the person you are talking to. I'd even find it weird to address royalty as "ni" now.
On February 28 2012 01:13 Jibba wrote: It exists in some form in English and I know in Turkish as well. The classic terms for young women centered around virginity and marriage.
On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote: Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful.
Language is one of the primary tools for oppression. Don't be so quick to discount something, and then attribute it as a waste of time for an entire group of people when in reality only a small amount of people used a small amount of time to create the change.
Is it?
Yes. Rhetoric, propaganda, subtle indoctrination. I'd hope people in a thread on French linguistics have had some background with Foucault.
On February 28 2012 00:32 JieXian wrote: " Les Chiennes de Garde " hahahahahahahahaha
Guard bitches
Yep, a feminist association. But "Chiennes" means "Female dogs", in french (even it's sometimes used as biteches aswell). The message is "If you piss womens off, we bite you".
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
On February 28 2012 00:28 Nouar wrote: I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised.... (and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
From what you're saying, it seems like the term was actually a useful indicator of status. I never thought there was any issue with the use of Miss, Ms., Mrs., etc. from an US citizen's standpoint. Very interesting.
Did you ever stop to think that we wouldn't have this problem if there was no differentation?
I think this can be somewhat compared to the Swedish revolution of "du" (singular you or tu in French) and "ni" (plural you or vous in French). Ni was used to address someone of a higher status in a hierarchy. Singular "ni" is now always replaced by "du", no matter the status of the person you are talking to. I'd even find it weird to address royalty as "ni" now.
Language can be (and is!) a tool for oppression!
"Vous" doesn't always imply higher status, it can also means that you are not close of the person. It is the formal way to talk. Actually you will often use "vous" to talk with people of "lesser status", just to let them know that you are not close lol.
The only equivalent I can think of for men is "guy" which was originally meant to refer to more of a scoundrel (after Guy Fawkes), but you'd certainly never see it used in a legal document, like was the case here.
I mean, to be perfectly honest, I've always like the way mademoiselle sounded. If I was a girl, I would want to be called mademoiselle, even if I were married.
This is no more a victory for anyone than if the president of the NFL officially renamed american football to "Handegg"
On February 28 2012 01:13 Jibba wrote: It exists in some form in English and I know in Turkish as well. The classic terms for young women centered around virginity and marriage.
On February 28 2012 01:09 Detwiler wrote: Well thank god they got that fixed.. wait what? Ya know this is why a lot of people consider feminists a joke. This is what they do with their time instead doing something actually useful.
Language is one of the primary tools for oppression. Don't be so quick to discount something, and then attribute it as a waste of time for an entire group of people when in reality only a small amount of people used a small amount of time to create the change.
Is it?
Yes. Rhetoric, propaganda, subtle indoctrination. I'd hope people in a thread on French linguistics have had some background with Foucault.
How odd, he never struck me as the righteous type.
On February 28 2012 00:28 Nouar wrote: I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised.... (and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
From what you're saying, it seems like the term was actually a useful indicator of status. I never thought there was any issue with the use of Miss, Ms., Mrs., etc. from an US citizen's standpoint. Very interesting.
Did you ever stop to think that we wouldn't have this problem if there was no differentation?
I think this can be somewhat compared to the Swedish revolution of "du" (singular you or tu in French) and "ni" (plural you or vous in French). Ni was used to address someone of a higher status in a hierarchy. Singular "ni" is now always replaced by "du", no matter the status of the person you are talking to. I'd even find it weird to address royalty as "ni" now.
Language can be (and is!) a tool for oppression!
"Vous" doesn't always imply higher status, it can also means that you are not close of the person. It is the formal way to talk. Actually you will often use "vous" to talk with people of "lesser status", just to let them know that you are not close lol.
I hate when people i don't know use "tu".
I hate it that I have to go through all that vous vs tu nonsense when speaking to French people
In Spain everyone says "tu" most of the time and I prefer that so much more, feels less snobbish and cold. There's less "HI I DON'T KNOW YOU GET AWAY" vibe to their language and it seems apparent among the people's personality.
Of course this is based from my limited experience and standpoint.
On February 28 2012 02:01 Golbat wrote: I mean, to be perfectly honest, I've always like the way mademoiselle sounded. If I was a girl, I would want to be called mademoiselle, even if I were married.
This is no more a victory for anyone than if the president of the NFL officially renamed american football to "Handegg"
I think it's more of people not liking to be labeled as an old non-virgin so they fused both together an avoided the distinction.
Funny how I read some threads in Wordreference and from what I've gathered people in Mexico should call women señorita whereas in Spain they should call women señora if they don't know them. In other words, in Mexico they made everyone young and in Spain (and France is trying) they made everyone respected.
Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term.
As far as forms go, yes there was a checkbox with mademoiselle, but there is ANOTHER checkbox with the marital status, single, couple, married, divorced etc. This one is compulsory, whereas the madame/mademoiselle was a matter of what you'd like to see on the envelope when you are sent an official letter. It has no legal value. Women had the choice, and most would put mademoiselle out of habit or just because they are proud of it. I've never in my life met a single girl/woman/old lady bitching on that term.
If you want to get to oppressing women, having their married last name being the one of her husband is worse. And I believe it's not even compulsory anymore.
I'd have liked it a lot if they actually checked the opinion of women on that before passing that, instead of only a few hardcore feminists lobbying. (Let's not talk about the 65+yo tight assed women politicians forming the bulk of ladies there.)
Ok there isn't anymore the same term for men, so "omg it's not equaaaaal", yeah, maybe... but before that, maybe changing the french language which plural is always masculine if there's *one* masculine term in it would be more important ? THAT is sexism in the language... Mademoiselle ? Barely cultural, from a french tradition of courting damsels, and in no way discriminative since it was optional.
@ Jibba : any litteral translation of "Little lady" would be slightly insulting and condescendant/paternal when saying it, in our language, whereas mademoiselle is the opposite actually.
It's a complete non issue, and we shouldn't even be talking about that. This is yet another move to occupy media space with useless debate on things that pretty much every body doesn't give a single fuck. There are so many topics that deserve to be put in the front rather than this, even on the subject of woman right.
This is typical politics and it makes me want to throw up when i see this debate being in the front of the news.
edit : yeah i'm happy for the 10 crazy bitches that cared about it tho, i see that it's not normal that women have to precise their martial status in forms whereas men doesn't have to... ~_~ i wonder what the next useless debate will be in the media.
On February 28 2012 00:28 Nouar wrote: I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised.... (and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
From what you're saying, it seems like the term was actually a useful indicator of status. I never thought there was any issue with the use of Miss, Ms., Mrs., etc. from an US citizen's standpoint. Very interesting.
Did you ever stop to think that we wouldn't have this problem if there was no differentation?
I think this can be somewhat compared to the Swedish revolution of "du" (singular you or tu in French) and "ni" (plural you or vous in French). Ni was used to address someone of a higher status in a hierarchy. Singular "ni" is now always replaced by "du", no matter the status of the person you are talking to. I'd even find it weird to address royalty as "ni" now.
Language can be (and is!) a tool for oppression!
"Vous" doesn't always imply higher status, it can also means that you are not close of the person. It is the formal way to talk. Actually you will often use "vous" to talk with people of "lesser status", just to let them know that you are not close lol.
I hate when people i don't know use "tu".
I hate it that I have to go through all that vous vs tu nonsense when speaking to French people
In Spain everyone says "tu" most of the time and I prefer that so much more, feels less snobbish and cold. There's less "HI I DON'T KNOW YOU GET AWAY" vibe to their language and it seems apparent among the people's personality.
Of course this is based from my limited experience and standpoint.
I know that they don't use it on a daily basis but Spanish people have "usted/ustedes" too. I prefer the French system since i don't really like the hypocrisy and the fake closeness of using "tu" with everyone. It feels so ankward, especially with people older than me. I guess i'm just used to it lol.
On February 28 2012 02:18 Marou wrote: It's a complete non issue, and we shouldn't even be talking about that. This is yet another move to occupy media space with useless debate on things that pretty much every body doesn't give a single fuck. There are so many topics that deserve to be put in the front rather than this, even on the subject of woman right.
This is typical politics and it makes me want to throw up when i see this debate being in the front of the news.
edit : yeah i'm happy for the 10 crazy bitches that cared about it tho, i see that it's not normal that women have to precise their martial status in forms whereas men doesn't have to... ~_~
In all important forms you have a marital field anyway : "celibataire/marié/concubinage/divorcé/enfants".... that mademoiselle field was cosmetic anyway. So yes, men have to tell their marital status, too.
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
Is it? When I learned french it was taught to me as 'young lady', as it was to everyone else I know who speaks french. And madame was never taught with its historical meaning either - it was always just a more 'general' term. Literal translations can lose all meaning between languages, so I don't think it's fair to take it's literal meaning in english as a direct correlation to its literal meaning in french.
This is what I meant by my previous example about the words my wife's culture uses for husband and wife.
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
But it's not.
The equivalent of demoiselle is damsel. The equivalent of mademoiselle is literally "My damsel" but more equivalent in meaning to "Ms." or "young lady".
On February 28 2012 00:28 Nouar wrote: I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised.... (and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
From what you're saying, it seems like the term was actually a useful indicator of status. I never thought there was any issue with the use of Miss, Ms., Mrs., etc. from an US citizen's standpoint. Very interesting.
Did you ever stop to think that we wouldn't have this problem if there was no differentation?
I think this can be somewhat compared to the Swedish revolution of "du" (singular you or tu in French) and "ni" (plural you or vous in French). Ni was used to address someone of a higher status in a hierarchy. Singular "ni" is now always replaced by "du", no matter the status of the person you are talking to. I'd even find it weird to address royalty as "ni" now.
Language can be (and is!) a tool for oppression!
"Vous" doesn't always imply higher status, it can also means that you are not close of the person. It is the formal way to talk. Actually you will often use "vous" to talk with people of "lesser status", just to let them know that you are not close lol.
I hate when people i don't know use "tu".
I hate it that I have to go through all that vous vs tu nonsense when speaking to French people
In Spain everyone says "tu" most of the time and I prefer that so much more, feels less snobbish and cold. There's less "HI I DON'T KNOW YOU GET AWAY" vibe to their language and it seems apparent among the people's personality.
Of course this is based from my limited experience and standpoint.
On February 28 2012 02:01 Golbat wrote: I mean, to be perfectly honest, I've always like the way mademoiselle sounded. If I was a girl, I would want to be called mademoiselle, even if I were married.
This is no more a victory for anyone than if the president of the NFL officially renamed american football to "Handegg"
I think it's more of people not liking to be labeled as an old non-virgin so they fused both together an avoided the distinction.
Funny how I read some threads in Wordreference and from what I've gathered people in Mexico should call women señorita whereas in Spain they should call women señora if they don't know them.
I feel that the distinction of the pronouns as "tu" and "vous" is well justified, especially with women. Some ladies don't like to be forced to do cheek-kisses(faire la bise) with someone they don't know very well (at the same time a lot of people don't mind this). It helps avoids those awkward moments where you have to decide if you want to offer a handshake or your cheek to her and not look like a pervert, especially when the age difference comes into play.
I don't know, maybe the native french won't feel it as unnatural as I do.
On February 28 2012 00:28 Nouar wrote: I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised.... (and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
From what you're saying, it seems like the term was actually a useful indicator of status. I never thought there was any issue with the use of Miss, Ms., Mrs., etc. from an US citizen's standpoint. Very interesting.
Did you ever stop to think that we wouldn't have this problem if there was no differentation?
I think this can be somewhat compared to the Swedish revolution of "du" (singular you or tu in French) and "ni" (plural you or vous in French). Ni was used to address someone of a higher status in a hierarchy. Singular "ni" is now always replaced by "du", no matter the status of the person you are talking to. I'd even find it weird to address royalty as "ni" now.
Language can be (and is!) a tool for oppression!
"Vous" doesn't always imply higher status, it can also means that you are not close of the person. It is the formal way to talk. Actually you will often use "vous" to talk with people of "lesser status", just to let them know that you are not close lol.
I hate when people i don't know use "tu".
I hate it that I have to go through all that vous vs tu nonsense when speaking to French people
In Spain everyone says "tu" most of the time and I prefer that so much more, feels less snobbish and cold. There's less "HI I DON'T KNOW YOU GET AWAY" vibe to their language and it seems apparent among the people's personality.
Of course this is based from my limited experience and standpoint.
I know that they don't use it on a daily basis but Spanish people have "usted/ustedes" too. I prefer the French system since i don't really like the hypocrisy and the fake closeness of using "tu" with everyone. It feels so ankward, especially with people older than me. I guess i'm just used to it lol.
That's my point, it's in the culture and language to keep a certain distant away from people using specific words and obviously that'll influence the speaker's mindset, where "closeness" would seem fake and hypocritical.
I don't know if the Spanish are faking it (at least I didn't feel it) but in certain ways the French have similarities with the Chinese/Japanese/Koreans.
Chanting and sloganeering to me it's just brain washing people it doesn't have any intellectual foundation. This does not change anything, honestly what's so wrong about mademoiselle that has to be deleted?, married women enjoy being called like that by young men, I know I do it all the time and I'm not even handsome...
That's what feminism is all about anyways, passing legislation to change words or add new words, they did it in my country in the constitution (Venezuela), even the new words added didn't even exist in the language before, people say it the feminist way to make fun of how ridicolous it sounds (for example a woman judge, would be called "jueza", the correct spanish would be "juez", it is a non-gender word, you just add the pronoun "La juez" to make the distiction). And at the end of the day nothing changes, except another piece of paper in some meaningless archive and women are still discriminated in some type of jobs. I even wonder sometimes if that will ever change, because it's part of human nature you know, of course some people like with racism blow it out of proportion (a lot) but a woman police"man" always gets the fun jokes, etc...
On February 28 2012 02:18 Marou wrote: It's a complete non issue, and we shouldn't even be talking about that. This is yet another move to occupy media space with useless debate on things that pretty much every body doesn't give a single fuck. There are so many topics that deserve to be put in the front rather than this, even on the subject of woman right.
This is typical politics and it makes me want to throw up when i see this debate being in the front of the news.
edit : yeah i'm happy for the 10 crazy bitches that cared about it tho, i see that it's not normal that women have to precise their martial status in forms whereas men doesn't have to... ~_~
In all important forms you have a marital field anyway : "celibataire/marié/concubinage/divorcé/enfants".... that mademoiselle field was cosmetic anyway. So yes, men have to tell their marital status, too.
You make a good point here...showing how useless this change is T__T
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
But it's not.
The equivalent of demoiselle is damsel. The equivalent of mademoiselle is literally "My damsel" but more equivalent in meaning to "Ms." or "young lady".
On February 28 2012 02:18 Marou wrote: It's a complete non issue, and we shouldn't even be talking about that. This is yet another move to occupy media space with useless debate on things that pretty much every body doesn't give a single fuck. There are so many topics that deserve to be put in the front rather than this, even on the subject of woman right.
This is typical politics and it makes me want to throw up when i see this debate being in the front of the news.
edit : yeah i'm happy for the 10 crazy bitches that cared about it tho, i see that it's not normal that women have to precise their martial status in forms whereas men doesn't have to... ~_~
In all important forms you have a marital field anyway : "celibataire/marié/concubinage/divorcé/enfants".... that mademoiselle field was cosmetic anyway. So yes, men have to tell their marital status, too.
You make a good point here...showing how useless this change is T__T
That's why I just don't get the fuss over that word -_- see my previous post for how it is used culturally. (aimed @ the others, cause you should know, being french and all xD)
@ Jibba : demoiselle is not the same as mademoiselle in French. Demoiselle is little lady, "nice" term used for little girls, mademoiselle, I already told it previously.
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term.
Most young women will laugh or get upset if you use "mademoiselle". It is just ankward and old fashioned lol.
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term.
Most young women will laugh or get upset if you use "mademoiselle". It is just ankward and old fashioned lol.
Upset ? awkward ? old fashioned ? Lol no. They'd either correct us and tell us to say madame, either be glad cause it means they're young or just say nothing cause it's normal for them.
Where do you live to say that lol ? It's nearly honorific, when you want to be courteous etc, it's not the least bit awkward >< Trust me, I deal with young french ladies all the time ;D I'd know if they hated it or were upset :D
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
But it's not.
The equivalent of demoiselle is damsel. The equivalent of mademoiselle is literally "My damsel" but more equivalent in meaning to "Ms." or "young lady".
Damsel = little lady
It means "young lady". Shouldn't translate everything literally. Or taking a break could be very painful.
I personnaly think no one will give a fuck about that stuff and everybody will keep callin mademoiselle the young girls !!! I don't see how i could call a 20 yo "madame", i can't do that ^^
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
As I said previously, I disagree that "miss" is equivalent to "little lady" I have (as well as most of the rest of my family, on both sides) always used "miss" when speaking to an unfamiliar woman, regardless of age.
For instance, if the waitress who was serving me at a restaurant was a young woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?", and if she was an older woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?".
Nobody has ever been offended by my use of the term "miss", no matter what age she may be. Given that an older woman would certainly be offended if I had called her "little lady", but not if I called her "miss", the terms are obviously (at least as far as all of my experiences, and the experiences of my extended family goes) not synonymous. And given that "miss" and "mademoiselle" are very similar (if not synonymous) terms, I find your interpretation, and the fact that you state it as fact, to be inaccurate.
On February 28 2012 02:37 AIOL! wrote: I personnaly think no one will give a fuck about that stuff and everybody will keep callin mademoiselle the young girls !!! I don't see how i could call a 20 yo "madame", i can't do that ^^
Yeah, I got bashed by my 23yo banker when I first called her Madame :p
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
As I said previously, I disagree that "miss" is equivalent to "little lady" I have (as well as most of the rest of my family, on both sides) always used "miss" when speaking to an unfamiliar woman, regardless of age.
For instance, if the waitress who was serving me at a restaurant was a young woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?", and if she was an older woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?".
Nobody has ever been offended by my use of the term "miss", no matter what age she may be. Given that an older woman would certainly be offended if I had called her "little lady", but not if I called her "miss", the terms are obviously (at least as far as all of my experiences, and the experiences of my extended family goes) not synonymous. And given that "miss" and "mademoiselle" are very similar (if not synonymous) terms, I find your interpretation, and the fact that you state it as fact, to be inaccurate.
Ma'am has actually replaced 'Miss' in most parts of the US, specifically because people get annoyed at it.
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term.
Most young women will laugh or get upset if you use "mademoiselle". It is just ankward and old fashioned lol.
Upset ? awkward ? old fashioned ? Lol no. They'd either correct us and tell us to say madame, either be glad cause it means they're young or just say nothing cause it's normal for them.
Where do you live to say that lol ? It's nearly honorific, when you want to be courteous etc, it's not the least bit awkward >< Trust me, I deal with young french ladies all the time ;D I'd know if they hated it or were upset :D
You really use it on a daily basis with every woman below 30 ? o,o
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
As I said previously, I disagree that "miss" is equivalent to "little lady" I have (as well as most of the rest of my family, on both sides) always used "miss" when speaking to an unfamiliar woman, regardless of age.
For instance, if the waitress who was serving me at a restaurant was a young woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?", and if she was an older woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?".
Nobody has ever been offended by my use of the term "miss", no matter what age she may be. Given that an older woman would certainly be offended if I had called her "little lady", but not if I called her "miss", the terms are obviously (at least as far as all of my experiences, and the experiences of my extended family goes) not synonymous. And given that "miss" and "mademoiselle" are very similar (if not synonymous) terms, I find your interpretation, and the fact that you state it as fact, to be inaccurate.
Ma'am has actually replaced 'Miss' in most parts of the US, specially because people get annoyed at it.
I've always used ma'am and miss interchangeably. I'm from Florida, along with my mother's side of the family (southern states at least) and my father's side of the family is from New York, so I guess i've grown up with both. The main point i'm trying to make is that "miss" is not equivalent to "little lady".
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term.
Most young women will laugh or get upset if you use "mademoiselle". It is just ankward and old fashioned lol.
Upset ? awkward ? old fashioned ? Lol no. They'd either correct us and tell us to say madame, either be glad cause it means they're young or just say nothing cause it's normal for them.
Where do you live to say that lol ? It's nearly honorific, when you want to be courteous etc, it's not the least bit awkward >< Trust me, I deal with young french ladies all the time ;D I'd know if they hated it or were upset :D
You really use it on a daily basis with every woman below 30 ? o,o
Well, yeah 0o Except in a very official kind of meeting (like the first time I saw my banker, be formal first, got corrected at once), but in the street, in a restaurant/bar (waitress), or to girls I know, to (fake :D) gallantry....
Yeah... basically yes. At work I use ranks in fact since I'm in the army, but overall when I don't really know someone, yes. Never got me into trouble. Madame is more respectful to an older woman when you want to be formal though, but it can be disrespectful to a younger one depending on her mood.
On February 28 2012 00:41 TS-Rupbar wrote: This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
Oppressing ? Lol.
Any woman could already put Madame regardless of her status and nobody would have EVER said anything. It was just there as an optional term, and as I already said, quite a lot of women were proud of that. Hardly oppressing and "woman rights" when it's optional.
The fact that it is optional (or standard? I'm not super familiar with French) for a man to refer to women by their relationship to men, and not to their individual identity, is "oppression" in my eyes. If you don't want to label it oppression, there is no logical way to say that it is not an unequal relationship between Monsieur (no matter marital status) and Madame/Mademoiselle (a matter of if they have a husband or not).
Actually, it is usually used according to the age... If you don't know the woman at ALL, let's say before 30, you would use mademoiselle as a deference/respect kind of term, with the meaning "young lady", and if older, if you want to be purely formal, "madame". It is not being used in the oral language purely as a marital status term.
Most young women will laugh or get upset if you use "mademoiselle". It is just ankward and old fashioned lol.
Upset ? awkward ? old fashioned ? Lol no. They'd either correct us and tell us to say madame, either be glad cause it means they're young or just say nothing cause it's normal for them.
Where do you live to say that lol ? It's nearly honorific, when you want to be courteous etc, it's not the least bit awkward >< Trust me, I deal with young french ladies all the time ;D I'd know if they hated it or were upset :D
You really use it on a daily basis with every woman below 30 ? o,o
Well, yeah 0o Except in a very official kind of meeting (like the first time I saw my banker, be formal first, got corrected at once), but in the street, in a restaurant/bar (waitress), or to girls I know, to (fake :D) gallantry....
Yeah... basically yes. At work I use ranks in fact since I'm in the army, but overall when I don't really know someone, yes. Never got me into trouble. Madame is more respectful to an older woman when you want to be formal though, but it can be disrespectful to a younger one depending on her mood.
So do I, except with close friends, I address most women under 30 as mademoiselle (even-though they're older than me) because they give me funny faces as if I'm insulting them for looking old when I call them "madame".
The exceptions are students (undergrads and below) will never do this, but in work settings (or internships), most people will.
let's make everyone transsexuals and solve the problem of sexuality once and for all.
I feel the whole "hiding or masking sexual identity or race or color for "equality"" thing to be a joke. Differences between one person and another always exist, denying differences and covering them up for the sake of PC is what generally harms people in the long run.
Here's a reasonable question. if we're expunging the use of feminine traits, does that mean we're only allowing "male" or "neutral"? That sounds more like gender suppression than "equality". A lot of people don't think of it this way, even though that's what happens. Even the so called "Server" instead of "waiter/waitress". The word "server" implies male characteristics because the word itself is inherently masculine. Just like -to and -ta in Spanish.
Language is inherently categorizing because the human mind is inherently a categorizing machine.
For these kinds of things to stop being doubel standards would be either to treat females as harshly as males or to treat males as leniently as females.
On February 28 2012 00:51 Parsistamon wrote: I think that official forms and documents is hardly the stuff of culture. I'm for it, such often unnoticed things can definitely have a psychological impact.
those "official forms" exist because of culture and society.
On February 28 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote: Is there a cultural divide in this thread? Maybe this is a bigger deal in Europe and people are more offended. I don't know, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "uhhh so?" and others are saying "yay feminism." I think it's just not considered offensive in America and in official titles we use Mrs. and Ms. instead of Mrs. and Miss. Ms. is technically neutral but it's only realistically used for unmarried I believe (as Miss I guess would be diminutive?). Huh. Interesting.
The english equivalent is "little lady".
As I said previously, I disagree that "miss" is equivalent to "little lady" I have (as well as most of the rest of my family, on both sides) always used "miss" when speaking to an unfamiliar woman, regardless of age.
For instance, if the waitress who was serving me at a restaurant was a young woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?", and if she was an older woman, I would say "Miss, could I get another glass of water?".
Nobody has ever been offended by my use of the term "miss", no matter what age she may be. Given that an older woman would certainly be offended if I had called her "little lady", but not if I called her "miss", the terms are obviously (at least as far as all of my experiences, and the experiences of my extended family goes) not synonymous. And given that "miss" and "mademoiselle" are very similar (if not synonymous) terms, I find your interpretation, and the fact that you state it as fact, to be inaccurate.
Yea, I mean Miss is perfectly fine colloquially. But on business cards and placards people usually use Ms. (and Ms is almost never pronounced without a last name. You can't be like "would you like some coffee, Miz?"). Miss isn't really appropriate for businesswomen imo. Less professional, which seems to be what this is about.
And it sounds like that distinction is more significant in French.
you realize the biggest supporters of feminist movements in the 20's were the wealthy elite who owned businesses. and these people were typically the biggest bigots and racists behind closed doors (sometimes even in public)
Ah if only they could find a better use of their time. Not saying this is a good or a bad thing, i really couldn't care less. But seeing homeless people dying in the cold streets and families getting destroyed by the racist Claude Guéant, i really think there are things that should been taken care of first.
Also, as Booba said : "Ni pute ni soumise vont se réjouir ces sales connasses"
Argh! I hate when there are complicated honorifics in a language, it confuses me so much. I remember when I was on the plane to Montreal I was watching Star Trek in French to get back in shape and I noticed Spock calls Kirk "vous" so I decieded it was probably a good idea to call everyone "vous" just to be sure.
It's really anoying when there are multiple honorifics that and the same ones can be offencive or friendly in the wrong context, like Japanese for instance. I get around it in the worst way possible by calling all my young female friends by masculin terms, mostly "bro" or "dude". It's probably because I live in Hippy-Town Canada, but they seem to be quite alright with it.
On February 28 2012 03:48 mister.bubbles wrote: Argh! I hate when there are complicated honorifics in a language, it confuses me so much. I remember when I was on the plane to Montreal I was watching Star Trek in French to get back in shape and I noticed Spock calls Kirk "vous" so I decieded it was probably a good idea to call everyone "vous" just to be sure.
It's really anoying when there are multiple honorifics that and the same ones can be offencive or friendly in the wrong context, like Japanese for instance. I get around it in the worst way possible by calling all my young female friends by masculin terms, mostly "bro" or "dude". It's probably because I live in Hippy-Town Canada, but they seem to be quite alright with it.
all languages have "polite and deferential" speech and "colloquial" speech. I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but north america seems to have lost a lot of that from the English language.
Does it really matter is my only question. It has no meaning to me. I really don't care what people call me either for that matter but more power to the women of France I guess.
Who gives a fuck seriously. Feminism okay, but that. I found mademoiselle pretty cute, like miss. Actually nowadays it's more about the age than the matrimonial situation.
I think there probably are a lot of other things that the government should be spending time. At least to me, it doesn't seem like a big problem, or a problem at all. Does it really matter that females have two identifiers (Mrs and Miss)? I just see it as part of our culture or tradition as a sense, and I don't see it as anti-female at all.
As far as I can tell, they only removed Mademoiselle from official forms. Nobody stops you from using it in any other situation. It only allows women to not disclose their matrimonial status in case they don't want to and don't have to.
Not really worth making a fuss about, and certainly doesn't seem like something to oppose at all.
On February 28 2012 00:09 Psychobabas wrote: Good stuff, now open jobs like day care, social workers, care assistants, front desk (example: receptionists, retail sales) to males.
They are open to males. It's just that either the employer doesn't want them there (thinks women are statistically more likely to be better at communicating or thinks that they would disrupt the predominantly female work environment) or men just don't want those jobs. There is no law prohibiting men to enact those jobs.
The only thing that government could do would be to enact a law that enforces a male/female quota in those jobs and that won't benefit anybody.
Exactly, and you bet your bottom dollar (or euro) that if that was the case with female workers we would have a whole feminist campaign.
No guy can actually expect to get work as a receptionist or in day care (this is also because of the hidden perception that: guy works in daycare? = possible pedophile!!!). It's true that most guys wouldnt want to be in reception but still it would be nice to have an option especially in this tough economic climate.
Language is arbitrary, it has only the meaning we assign to it. I'd be very surprised if we could find a large group of people who assign a prejudiced meaning to this kind of language or use it in a discriminatory way. Instead of trying to change the outward expressions of gender inequality, we should be focusing on it causes. This type of action is like treating the symptoms of a disease and then proclaiming the person 'cured.'
Although the use of marital-status specific language may have originally developed with discrimination in mind (or as an unintended side-effect), I challenge anyone to find concrete evidence (in the form of a scientific paper/study) that shows that this type of language leads to real discrimination against women today. It is sort of an unfair expectation because I don't think that such a study can be done, even in principle. We can't really know if this has any effect at all and afterwards we won't know if it has really helped anything. It just sounds like we're chasing the specter of gender inequality.
If this change makes an appreciable positive difference in the life of any woman I ever meet, I think I'll eat my shirt on the spot.
On February 28 2012 03:19 Spieltor wrote: let's make everyone transsexuals and solve the problem of sexuality once and for all.
I feel the whole "hiding or masking sexual identity or race or color for "equality"" thing to be a joke. Differences between one person and another always exist, denying differences and covering them up for the sake of PC is what generally harms people in the long run.
Here's a reasonable question. if we're expunging the use of feminine traits, does that mean we're only allowing "male" or "neutral"? That sounds more like gender suppression than "equality". A lot of people don't think of it this way, even though that's what happens. Even the so called "Server" instead of "waiter/waitress". The word "server" implies male characteristics because the word itself is inherently masculine. Just like -to and -ta in Spanish.
Language is inherently categorizing because the human mind is inherently a categorizing machine.
For these kinds of things to stop being doubel standards would be either to treat females as harshly as males or to treat males as leniently as females.
On February 28 2012 00:51 Parsistamon wrote: I think that official forms and documents is hardly the stuff of culture. I'm for it, such often unnoticed things can definitely have a psychological impact.
those "official forms" exist because of culture and society.
Greatest post in the thread so far. Thanks for that. =)
On February 28 2012 03:29 Kleinmuuhg wrote: getting rid of beautiful innocent words , great achievement.
It's okay, we've got a new word: swapportunity.
People are misenterpreting this: mademoiselle did not disapear from the French language, only from the administrative forms... I think it's completly fair to say that women should not have to give their marital status if they don't wish to and if it's not necessary. Mademoiselle will still be used, but its meaning is shifting and is now more likely to mean "young lady".
I always say Ma'am or Miss, based on age. Except I had a teacher in high school that called herself Miss instead of Mrs, though she had long been married. So wait, is France doing the opposite of American feminists, going to calling everyone Ma'am? Or am I confused.
On February 28 2012 00:19 Erasme wrote: This isn't a victory, it's rather sad. But I'll still use it : ]
Ditto. What a silly state of affairs. I am sorry but its not like saying, Pardon mademoiselle is equivalent to, excuse me, whore. It's a title, a polite title. I think we should stop asking for the nom jeune fille. It sounds like you can only not be married when you are young. Maybe it should be nom de naissance, because not all women get married. It's derogatory and against women's rights. Maybe we should make it illegal to hold a door for a woman as well, because that makes her feel like she can't do it for herself. And let her get on the metro before you? Fuck that shit as well. Shove the hag down (like most other Parisians do anyway :D)
On February 28 2012 00:19 Erasme wrote: This isn't a victory, it's rather sad. But I'll still use it : ]
Ditto. What a silly state of affairs. I am sorry but its not like saying, Pardon mademoiselle is equivalent to, excuse me, whore. It's a title, a polite title. I think we should stop asking for the nom jeune fille. It sounds like you can only not be married when you are young. Maybe it should be nom de naissance, because not all women get married. It's derogatory and against women's rights. Maybe we should make it illegal to hold a door for a woman as well, because that makes her feel like she can't do it for herself. And let her get on the metro before you? Fuck that shit as well. Shove the hag down (like most other Parisians do anyway :D)
On February 28 2012 03:48 mister.bubbles wrote: Argh! I hate when there are complicated honorifics in a language, it confuses me so much. I remember when I was on the plane to Montreal I was watching Star Trek in French to get back in shape and I noticed Spock calls Kirk "vous" so I decieded it was probably a good idea to call everyone "vous" just to be sure.
It's really anoying when there are multiple honorifics that and the same ones can be offencive or friendly in the wrong context, like Japanese for instance. I get around it in the worst way possible by calling all my young female friends by masculin terms, mostly "bro" or "dude". It's probably because I live in Hippy-Town Canada, but they seem to be quite alright with it.
all languages have "polite and deferential" speech and "colloquial" speech. I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but north america seems to have lost a lot of that from the English language.
Well, if I am not mistaken, English has basically completely switched to the honorific form of pronouns. A few centuries ago, the more personal pronoun was "thou" (like "tu" in French, "du" in German) while "you" (like "vous" in French, "Sie" in German) was the more honorific form.
Modern English does not have a T–V pronoun distinction. In earlier versions of English, thou and thee were the T-forms of the second person singular, while ye and you constituted the V-forms. The T-forms, however, became stigmatised, and disappeared from ordinary speech, leaving the original V-form, you, the only active second-person pronoun. Thou and thee survive chiefly as archaisms. To a modern English speaker unaware of the origin of the distinction, the use of thou (for example in prayer), originally a sign of intimacy, now has connotations of formality due to its ceremonial character.
On February 28 2012 00:19 Erasme wrote: This isn't a victory, it's rather sad. But I'll still use it : ]
Ditto. What a silly state of affairs. I am sorry but its not like saying, Pardon mademoiselle is equivalent to, excuse me, whore. It's a title, a polite title. I think we should stop asking for the nom jeune fille. It sounds like you can only not be married when you are young. Maybe it should be nom de naissance, because not all women get married. It's derogatory and against women's rights. Maybe we should make it illegal to hold a door for a woman as well, because that makes her feel like she can't do it for herself. And let her get on the metro before you? Fuck that shit as well. Shove the hag down (like most other Parisians do anyway :D)
Not a victory for anyone, just a waste of time.
You're thinking too much. This starts with a very simple right, the right to mind your own business. Married or not? Not your business. It's purely a matter of privacy when filling paperwork.
On February 28 2012 03:29 Kleinmuuhg wrote: getting rid of beautiful innocent words , great achievement.
It's okay, we've got a new word: swapportunity.
People are misenterpreting this: mademoiselle did not disapear from the French language, only from the administrative forms... I think it's completly fair to say that women should not have to give their marital status if they don't wish to and if it's not necessary. Mademoiselle will still be used, but its meaning is shifting and is now more likely to mean "young lady".
Actually, "Les Chiennes de Garde" would translate more into "The Watchbitches"
"Chienne" is the french for "Bitch": It initally meant "female dog", before men turned it into something else... Another sign that the fight for men/ women equality is far from over.
On February 28 2012 00:19 Erasme wrote: This isn't a victory, it's rather sad. But I'll still use it : ]
Ditto. What a silly state of affairs. I am sorry but its not like saying, Pardon mademoiselle is equivalent to, excuse me, whore. It's a title, a polite title. I think we should stop asking for the nom jeune fille. It sounds like you can only not be married when you are young. Maybe it should be nom de naissance, because not all women get married. It's derogatory and against women's rights. Maybe we should make it illegal to hold a door for a woman as well, because that makes her feel like she can't do it for herself. And let her get on the metro before you? Fuck that shit as well. Shove the hag down (like most other Parisians do anyway :D)
Not a victory for anyone, just a waste of time.
You're thinking too much. This starts with a very simple right, the right to mind your own business. Married or not? Not your business. It's purely a matter of privacy when filling paperwork.
Yeah but most official documents ask for maiden name anyway, and a lot of things just plain ask marital status. It's just a hollow word. Miss or missus. I'm not anti-progression, it just seems like such a waste of energy over something so meaningless. Worry about women making less on average than a man in the same position, not about what your title is.
And that door thing I did read about or see somewhere, how women shouldn't allow the chivalry of men in the business place, it demeans and lessens them. It's just people taking too much from good intentions. I hold doors for guys and gals alike, it's just being polite. Just let people be nice, and if they are extra nice because you have a vagina, good for you.
On February 28 2012 06:21 GreyMasta wrote: Actually, "Les Chiennes de Garde" would translate more into "The Watchbitches"
"Chienne" is the french for "Bitch": It initally meant "female dog", before men turned it into something else... Another sign that the fight for men/ women equality is far from over.
Malcolm X argues that equality starts with self pride. Real self pride involves understanding and loving what you are, and when you do that, then you can be treated with equality. Mademoiselle is a beatiful word, one of my favorites in french (I'm studying french atm), women to be proud of something need to learn to appreciate all of the little things that society does in their favour like calling them mademoiselle out of politeness, opening doors, giving seats in the bus or carrying heavy things for them. It is not that they cannot do it for themselves, it's just part of society that sees females as delicate beings, when they're obviously not, but it's just a romantic view and good founded. These females that always wear jeans and that refuse to let males carry their tv's when they're moving it around don't seem to be really proud about themselves, to me their actions of making everybody equal when they are not seems little more than brainwashing and sloganeering. Vive la difference!
Not gonna lie, "Mademoiselle" always sounded so much more attractive than "Madame". I rather think they should have just invented a new word for the male equivalent. What will happen to so many parts of French culture now that such an integral word is gone?
my french teacher told me that she liked being called mademoiselle (even though she is married) because it made her feel young. she also said to always use mademoiselle when I don't know the marriage status because females would prefer it to being called madame.
On February 28 2012 07:54 Pyskee wrote: This is really feminist's biggest concern right now?
considering that a man issued the memorandum, it seems this is the government trying to appease so-called feminist issues so that they can ignore the real inequality issues.
On February 28 2012 07:54 dAPhREAk wrote: my french teacher told me that she liked being called mademoiselle (even though she is married) because it made her feel young. she also said to always use mademoiselle when I don't know the marriage status because females would prefer it to being called madame.
Exactly the same with "señorita" in spanish. THEY LOVE being called like that when they're old or married, they love it, seriously. But feminism like politics sees an enemy in everybody and think that sloganeering and changing the language changes anything.
Edit: My french prof also told me she loves being called mademoiselle. She's like 50 something kinda pretty for her age tbh ^^
On February 28 2012 07:54 dAPhREAk wrote: my french teacher told me that she liked being called mademoiselle (even though she is married) because it made her feel young. she also said to always use mademoiselle when I don't know the marriage status because females would prefer it to being called madame.
Exactly the same with "señorita" in spanish. THEY LOVE being called like that when they're old or married, they love it, seriously. But feminism like politics sees an enemy in everybody and think that sloganeering and changing the language changes anything.
The main point behind the complete disappearing of every "Mademoiselle" was exactly that it was referring to the woman marital status and they didn't want to always be linked to their marital status and to their husband through it.
The idea is that, as time pass, Madame would just mean female man, and not someone that is married to a man.
I'm not defending them btw, I find all that quite ridiculous.
On February 28 2012 07:54 dAPhREAk wrote: my french teacher told me that she liked being called mademoiselle (even though she is married) because it made her feel young. she also said to always use mademoiselle when I don't know the marriage status because females would prefer it to being called madame.
Exactly the same with "señorita" in spanish. THEY LOVE being called like that when they're old or married, they love it, seriously. But feminism like politics sees an enemy in everybody and think that sloganeering and changing the language changes anything.
The main point behind the complete disappearing of every "Mademoiselle" was exactly that it was referring to the woman marital status and they didn't want to always be linked to their marital status and to their husband through it.
The idea is that, as time pass, Madame would just mean female man, and not someone that is married to a man.
I'm not defending them btw, I feel it's ridiculous.
Ya, ok typical rage-after-divorce thing that some people advocate. Ok.
On February 28 2012 07:54 dAPhREAk wrote: my french teacher told me that she liked being called mademoiselle (even though she is married) because it made her feel young. she also said to always use mademoiselle when I don't know the marriage status because females would prefer it to being called madame.
Exactly the same with "señorita" in spanish. THEY LOVE being called like that when they're old or married, they love it, seriously. But feminism like politics sees an enemy in everybody and think that sloganeering and changing the language changes anything.
The main point behind the complete disappearing of every "Mademoiselle" was exactly that it was referring to the woman marital status and they didn't want to always be linked to their marital status and to their husband through it.
The idea is that, as time pass, Madame would just mean female man, and not someone that is married to a man.
I'm not defending them btw, I feel it's ridiculous.
Ya, ok typical rage-after-divorce thing that some people advocate. Ok.
That's feminism : a good idea, but always the wrong fight.
On February 28 2012 07:54 Pyskee wrote: This is really feminist's biggest concern right now?
considering that a man issued the memorandum, it seems this is the government trying to appease so-called feminist issues so that they can ignore the real inequality issues.
Considering that two major French feminist groups fought for this and are now celebrating their victory, your theory seems inaccurate.
On February 28 2012 07:54 Pyskee wrote: This is really feminist's biggest concern right now?
considering that a man issued the memorandum, it seems this is the government trying to appease so-called feminist issues so that they can ignore the real inequality issues.
Considering that two major French feminist groups fought for this and are now celebrating their victory, your theory seems inaccurate.
not really. the real issue is gender discrimination based on marital status for females. this doesn't really solve the problem. if this is really a "victory," they should set their sights a wee bit higher in the future.
On February 28 2012 07:54 Pyskee wrote: This is really feminist's biggest concern right now?
considering that a man issued the memorandum, it seems this is the government trying to appease so-called feminist issues so that they can ignore the real inequality issues.
Considering that two major French feminist groups fought for this and are now celebrating their victory, your theory seems inaccurate.
This is much more complicated than that. You guys need to understand the differenciation between a feminist and someone who has nothing against women rights.
FACT: The feminist movement is very limited in France, around 3000 total feminists were counted in the last protest.
So considering this number, you can deduce why the feminisit movement is a blattant mascarade to divide people when there are better efficient moves to make with the same amount of mediatic energy. In fact, as told above this post, the feminist movement was born in USA and they were a pretty elite circle. The reason this feminist movement is minor is because you cannot just put all the women in the same sac to get them to your cause for obvious politic interests.
TL;DR Mademoiselle is just the surface, the rest is hidden below and yet remains unchanged.
I don't understand why this is such a big deal. It's not like it actually effects people's lives. I have no issue with this but I'm surprised to see so many people so opposed to the term.
On February 28 2012 07:54 Pyskee wrote: This is really feminist's biggest concern right now?
considering that a man issued the memorandum, it seems this is the government trying to appease so-called feminist issues so that they can ignore the real inequality issues.
Considering that two major French feminist groups fought for this and are now celebrating their victory, your theory seems inaccurate.
You're talking about Les Chiennes de Garde & Osez le féminisme ? ....
This is kinda stupid. In English, the distinction between Miss and Missus (Ms. and Mrs.) has never been called into question because frankly there are bigger issues to worry about.
Feminism always sort of bothers me in its modern form. Yeah, women should have equal rights, but the sorts of things that feminists today tend to fight for -- the right to display their breasts in public, more representation in "hard" science fields like math and engineering (even though the only reason there are more men is that men tend to be more interested in them -- there's nothing wrong with this,) occasionally arguing that the years of female repression mean women are long overdue to actually be placed above men in social hierarchy (these are the real crazies,) and apparently semantics like whether they should be referred to by a different title depending on their (legally important!) marital status -- are all such dramatic non-issues in my mind that it feels like a waste of activism.
Go fight for human rights in Africa or against political corruption or war or... something. This is so unimportant compared to those...
A step is a step. People whine when things don't change, whine when things don't change enough, and whine when they change too much...
The maiden name has some practical reasons, since early documents are all filed under that name. The marital status, on the other hand, was often not asked directly but indirectly, not only by the government but privates institutions. "Are you a mister, miss, or missus?"
On February 28 2012 09:00 UmiNotsuki wrote: This is kinda stupid. In English, the distinction between Miss and Missus (Ms. and Mrs.) has never been called into question because frankly there are bigger issues to worry about.
[...]
Go fight for human rights in Africa or against political corruption or war or... something. This is so unimportant compared to those...
How could you complain about this, when your government is not handling the crisis correctly! This thread is so unimportant compared to those...
On February 28 2012 09:06 Kukaracha wrote: A step is a step. People whine when things don't change, whine when things don't change enough, and whine when they change too much...
The maiden name has some practical reasons, since early documents are all filed under that name. The marital status, on the other hand, was often not asked directly but indirectly, not only by the government but privates institutions. "Are you a mister, miss, or missus?"
On February 28 2012 09:00 UmiNotsuki wrote: This is kinda stupid. In English, the distinction between Miss and Missus (Ms. and Mrs.) has never been called into question because frankly there are bigger issues to worry about.
[...]
Go fight for human rights in Africa or against political corruption or war or... something. This is so unimportant compared to those...
How could you complain about this, when your government is not handling the crisis correctly! This thread is so unimportant compared to those...
I'm not complaining, I don't think. I just think it's kinda sad that these feminists, who are surely well educated and intelligent people, are putting their effort towards something semantic instead of something that could really change the world.
Wtf is wrong with feminists being offended by everything? o.O
There is so much "girls only" stuff that women can take advantage of it's ridiculous.
Women's quota at various places(don't even get me started on how wrong this is), women's libraries(I'm not even kidding), women only saunas, just to name a few.
Furthermore women tend to be much more easily offended by men invading their "private space". Imagine a guy accidentally walks into the girls changing room at a gym - all hell breaks loose and he's accused of being a pervert or worse.
Now imagine it the other way around. Can you tell me of any guy who would be offended? Or think the girl did anything else but take the wrong door? Heck, there's even female cleaning personnel working in men's changing or rest rooms.
Think about it for a minute and tell me with a straight face that women in the western world(e.g. France) are still in a disadvantageous position.
How could you complain about this, when your government is not handling the crisis correctly! This thread is so unimportant compared to those...
from a "feminism" thread to a country bashing thread. now this has potential.
I'm not bashing any country, in fact I didn't even look it up before posting. I was simply underlining that it is ridiculuous to complain about this measure not being important because there is simply always something more important to do. What counts is to move forward, not to adress "important" things first because in that case let's be honest, nothing would happen at all.
"Hey guys, let's forget unemployment until we have eradicated poverty!"
On February 28 2012 09:19 Ermac wrote: Wtf is wrong with feminists being offended by everything? o.O
There is so much "girls only" stuff that women can take advantage of it's ridiculous.
Women's quota at various places(don't even get me started on how wrong this is), women's libraries(I'm not even kidding), women only saunas, just to name a few.
Furthermore women tend to be much more easily offended by men invading their "private space". Imagine a guy accidentally walks into the girls changing room at a gym - all hell breaks loose and he's accused of being a pervert or worse.
Now imagine it the other way around. Can you tell me of any guy who would be offended? Or think the girl did anything else but take the wrong door? Heck, there's even female cleaning personnel working in men's changing or rest rooms.
Think about it for a minute and tell me with a straight face that women in the western world(e.g. France) are still in a disadvantageous position.
yeah, they are still in a disadvantageous position, but its slowly improving. and LOL at your being upset over "women only saunas."
Hmm, as a female myself (but not a feminist) I abhor the term "Madame." It always makes me think of an evil headmistress or the woman who runs a whore house. But maybe it's different in France? But I can see the issue. Why only separate women? It's sexist.
Ok, so instead of abolishing one of the most sexually charged words in human language, not to mention one of the most beautiful, why not just create a separation between men? Unmarried men can be "monsieurels," or something less ugly-sounding. I'm sure the French could come up with something...
I think there is a lot worse to be concerned about and remember this is just abolishing it from government papers and what not. In reality all you need is M/F on the stupid forms anyway.
Besides that the French have some of the best jargon as well. They have all sorts of beautiful words. =P
If this were to happen for the English language, there wouldn't be that awkward moment when you refer to someone as "Miss" and she replies that she's married. >.>
I am sorry but i have little culture, could some one explain this to me? All i got was they changed the suffix for how to address women? Is this a big issue in france for womans right?
On February 28 2012 09:26 raincat wrote: Hmm, as a female myself (but not a feminist) I abhor the term "Madame." It always makes me think of an evil headmistress or the woman who runs a whore house. But maybe it's different in France? But I can see the issue. Why only separate women? It's sexist.
Ok, so instead of abolishing one of the most sexually charged words in human language, not to mention one of the most beautiful, why not just create a separation between men? Unmarried men can be "monsieurels," or something less ugly-sounding. I'm sure the French could come up with something...
Yes, it is very different in France. It's basically the same as Misses, in fact. Unless Misses is an abhorrent term, then there's nothing wrong about "Madame"in France.
On February 28 2012 09:26 raincat wrote: Hmm, as a female myself (but not a feminist) I abhor the term "Madame." It always makes me think of an evil headmistress or the woman who runs a whore house. But maybe it's different in France? But I can see the issue. Why only separate women? It's sexist.
Ok, so instead of abolishing one of the most sexually charged words in human language, not to mention one of the most beautiful, why not just create a separation between men? Unmarried men can be "monsieurels," or something less ugly-sounding. I'm sure the French could come up with something...
Well Think about how nice sounding is mademoiselle. Why kill it off? like the OP said if your marital status are unknown mademoiselle signifies interest while madame is just polite. Why can't women have two titles and men have only one? it's just a title. I mean if this goes thru soon the feminists will start to ask us to call them sirs because they want to be the same as men.
On February 28 2012 09:26 raincat wrote: Hmm, as a female myself (but not a feminist) I abhor the term "Madame." It always makes me think of an evil headmistress or the woman who runs a whore house. But maybe it's different in France? But I can see the issue. Why only separate women? It's sexist.
Ok, so instead of abolishing one of the most sexually charged words in human language, not to mention one of the most beautiful, why not just create a separation between men? Unmarried men can be "monsieurels," or something less ugly-sounding. I'm sure the French could come up with something...
Well Think about how nice sounding is mademoiselle. Why kill it off? like the OP said if your marital status are unknown mademoiselle signifies interest while madame is just polite. Why can't women have two titles and men have only one? it's just a title. I mean if this goes thru soon the feminists will start to ask us to call them sirs because they want to be the same as men.
To be honest people are not going to stop using the term "mademoiselle". It's a symbol of youth, and a mark of respect towards a young lady. This only concerns application forms and whatnot.
On February 28 2012 08:17 dAPhREAk wrote:not really. the real issue is gender discrimination based on marital status for females. this doesn't really solve the problem. if this is really a "victory," they should set their sights a wee bit higher in the future.
That would be my point, yes.
On February 28 2012 08:31 Khanz wrote:This is much more complicated than that. You guys need to understand the differenciation between a feminist and someone who has nothing against women rights.
FACT: The feminist movement is very limited in France, around 3000 total feminists were counted in the last protest.
So considering this number, you can deduce why the feminisit movement is a blattant mascarade to divide people when there are better efficient moves to make with the same amount of mediatic energy. In fact, as told above this post, the feminist movement was born in USA and they were a pretty elite circle. The reason this feminist movement is minor is because you cannot just put all the women in the same sac to get them to your cause for obvious politic interests.
TL;DR Mademoiselle is just the surface, the rest is hidden below and yet remains unchanged.
The point I was making was that French feminists fought to change the surface and are now celebrating, which is why I concurred with the question, "This is really feminists' biggest concern right now?"
On February 28 2012 09:19 Ermac wrote: Wtf is wrong with feminists being offended by everything? o.O
There is so much "girls only" stuff that women can take advantage of it's ridiculous.
Women's quota at various places(don't even get me started on how wrong this is), women's libraries(I'm not even kidding), women only saunas, just to name a few.
Furthermore women tend to be much more easily offended by men invading their "private space". Imagine a guy accidentally walks into the girls changing room at a gym - all hell breaks loose and he's accused of being a pervert or worse.
Now imagine it the other way around. Can you tell me of any guy who would be offended? Or think the girl did anything else but take the wrong door? Heck, there's even female cleaning personnel working in men's changing or rest rooms.
Think about it for a minute and tell me with a straight face that women in the western world(e.g. France) are still in a disadvantageous position.
yeah, they are still in a disadvantageous position, but its slowly improving. and LOL at your being upset over "women only saunas."
LOL not upset. That came across wrong ^^
That's exactly my point. I'm not upset by it, and neither are any other men I know of. But some feminists are literally upset by everything that doesn't put them in an advantageous position over men.
On February 28 2012 09:44 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Yes, it is very different in France. It's basically the same as Misses, in fact. Unless Misses is an abhorrent term, then there's nothing wrong about "Madame"in France.
I think it probably has something to do with the way people with that title are portrayed in movies. But I'm not too keen on "Missus" either. That's my mom's title, not mine. But men have always only had one option. I'm sure we'd be used to it if it had always been just "Madame" or "Missus" but I think it's a really big cultural shift to remove it.
On February 28 2012 09:45 Blasterion wrote: Well Think about how nice sounding is mademoiselle. Why kill it off? like the OP said if your marital status are unknown mademoiselle signifies interest while madame is just polite. Why can't women have two titles and men have only one? it's just a title. I mean if this goes thru soon the feminists will start to ask us to call them sirs because they want to be the same as men.
True. I see no problem with the difference personally, and your point just makes me oppose the change all the more. They probably won't stop here. But I still do see how on the official forms and such, it might be a bit sexist to require women to differentiate between married and unmarried. But then most official forms also ask for marital status so you are probably already telling them......it is all so muddled.
On February 28 2012 01:26 SnoWhiTe wrote: Honestly this change is dumb.
I mean how can it be see as a discrimination... So when someone is reffering you as an "young men" instead of "men" you should be offended ? But if the French feminist organizations are happy with that, guess it's great for us. But I'm not gonna stop to say "mademoiselle" to womens just because of a small percent of frenzy feminists (Cause at this point, that's what it is o_o)
Why should you have a distinction between married and unmarried females when there is no such distinction between males?
I don't know about you, and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone but we sometimes (if not always) say mademoiselle instead of madame even to young married ladies. It simply doesn't matter really. I guess it's pretty much like the asians and their ways of indicatives older / younger terms ? Edit : I can only understand from a administrative's perspective. I guess they want to get rid of the 3 differents forms that exist (Mr, Mrs, miss) ? But other than that, i hardly see ppl getting rid of it. Time will tell i guess.
Well, in English it means the opposite actually, right?
We have to get rid of Mrs., and use Miss instead. Or else it would be strange to call everyone Mrs. Or maybe adapt the Madam? But its too formal. Or use Lady? That'd be awesome.
On February 28 2012 11:20 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Well, in English it means the opposite actually, right?
We have to get rid of Mrs., and use Miss instead. Or else it would be strange to call everyone Mrs. Or maybe adapt the Madam? But its too formal. Or use Lady? That'd be awesome.
Hello there, lady. LOL.
Dude, I am all for "lady" That'd be awesome. but only if they will refer to me and other males as sirs
On February 28 2012 11:20 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Well, in English it means the opposite actually, right?
We have to get rid of Mrs., and use Miss instead. Or else it would be strange to call everyone Mrs. Or maybe adapt the Madam? But its too formal. Or use Lady? That'd be awesome.
Hello there, lady. LOL.
in english it does not mean the opposite. mademoiselle = miss, madame = mrs.
I just want to reiterate what as been said before: it's not about the french language, nor the french culture, it simply is about official forms and state-related stuff. Social interaction will remain just the same.
I agree with the Memo. There's much historical baggage that comes with lots of our words, and I think it unfair to simplify it down to a dictionary definition and act like that is all that it means. I think it is just outdated and useless.
I hope that English will follow suit and generalize the female titles to just one (or at least not have them based on marital status), like Mister is for males. Women shouldn't be expected to have to state their marital status, in the same way men shouldn't and don't.
On February 28 2012 11:20 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Well, in English it means the opposite actually, right?
We have to get rid of Mrs., and use Miss instead. Or else it would be strange to call everyone Mrs. Or maybe adapt the Madam? But its too formal. Or use Lady? That'd be awesome.
Hello there, lady. LOL.
in english it does not mean the opposite. mademoiselle = miss, madame = mrs.
If you read and understood my post and the context, "it" means the situation of what honorific to use in English. To explain further, if we are faithful to the intention of the French memo, it means we remove "Miss" and use "Mrs." instead. Hence the that's why I say "in English it means the opposite actually" because in English, if we are faithful to the intention of the memo, a problem arises if we remove "Miss" and instead use "Mrs" for obvious reasons.
Also, you are wrong in another instance again. "Madame" is not necessarily "Mrs." in French, it's just a way to address someone older than you, married or not, in a formal manner.
On February 28 2012 00:14 Zren89 wrote: Wow, I know that after the fifties and sixties the Germans Kind of did the same thing with Fraulein Now its just Frau, no distinction. the homogenization of langauge, not just between languages and dialects, but even within the language as a whole (based on cultural shifts) is not really something new, what will be will be, either this will catch on with the population as a whole, and mademoiselle will go away and no one will say it much anymore (with the possible exception of more senior members of society, you know old people) regardless of what happens, its interesting to me that any government can mandate what should and should not be said by its citizens. I can't imagine that those two feminist groups speak for the vast majority when they lobby the govt of France.
Interesting post, not sure what to think of it. On one hand, distinguishing between women on the basis of maritial status is a bit old-fashioned but I'm sure that it is also quite endearing (much like opening a door for someone of the opposite sex [a woman opened a door for me on a first date once, I was extremely flattered ] or taking there coat) sometimes its just being polite, not alluding to the archaic idea that women are somehow inferior. It's a complex issue, and its still being worked out, I would appreciate updates as they happen.
It would be very interesting to see how this affects peer relationships (if at all) in France. Aussi, Ca va bein! Et toi?
You said either and then you only provided one option D:. It's bothering me T.T.
On February 28 2012 07:54 dAPhREAk wrote: my french teacher told me that she liked being called mademoiselle (even though she is married) because it made her feel young. she also said to always use mademoiselle when I don't know the marriage status because females would prefer it to being called madame.
Exactly the same with "señorita" in spanish. THEY LOVE being called like that when they're old or married, they love it, seriously. But feminism like politics sees an enemy in everybody and think that sloganeering and changing the language changes anything.
Edit: My french prof also told me she loves being called mademoiselle. She's like 50 something kinda pretty for her age tbh ^^
Now that is an excellent point, changes in language can indeed precipitate changes in thought and idea but at the end of the day sometimes it really is just sloganeering :/
how does this change how women are TREATED? thats what they're(you're) going for, right?
This does nothing for womens' rights, if anything this is a step backwards, women bitched for a YEAR (!!!) over this? And yea, i specifically use the word 'bitch' here. I'm not saying only women stress over pointless things, everyone does, and i hate them equally so, but labelling who you are AS you stress about something as pointless as this does nothing for the way others think of you.
[...] there is ANOTHER checkbox with the marital status, single, couple, married, divorced etc. This one is compulsory, whereas the madame/mademoiselle was a matter of what you'd like to see on the envelope when you are sent an official letter. It has no legal value. Women had the choice,
This went kind of unnoticed, even though this a very important point. Legally, there is NO DIFFERENCE between "mademoiselle" and "madame". A woman can tick whichever box she wishes, married or not.
If having two choices for a woman and only one for a man was that big of a deal, why not change it into "gender : |_| male |_| female"? Which gets rid of the cultural connotations of "madame" and "mademoiselle". Even though femisinist groups would probably get mad over the fact that "male" is the first option, thus implying a superiority of male over females. And there would probably be a couple of transsexual right groups protesting in favor of a couple more options anyway...
But this is French feminist groups for you : angry men-haters bitching all day long about useless things. Gender equality is a joke in France. Of course, legally, there is no discrimination at all. But the glass ceiling is as strong as ever (and pretty low as well), women are waaaaayyyy underrepresenteed in politics, especially in the two major parties, and the list goes on... But who cares? Feminist groups spent a good year scratching each other's eyes out to determine if breastfeeding your child was conforming to centuries of degrading housetasks for women in our phallocracy, or was rather a proud display of accepting your own body and genetic attributes instead of succumbing to the pressure of our modern pornocracy that treats breasts as sex toys only, letting bottles do the job of feeding babies.
Who cares what is better for the little whining bastard? We are talking about feminist posture here!
And sadly, no, I am not even kidding...
Ps : on a side note, I LOVE the word "mademoiselle", and only use "madame" in formal contexts, unless I am corrected (which happens ). My friends actually feel old and wrinkled when adressed as "madame".
Mademoiselle is in no way barred from common usage, but it doesn't really have a place on forms in a modern country. Removing indications of marital status from official documents unrelated to it will have no affect on the ways people indicate their attraction to others.
EPT
] or taking their coat) sometimes its just being polite, not alluding to the archaic idea that women are somehow inferior. It's a complex issue, and it's still being worked out, I would appreciate updates as they happen. 
