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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12177 Posts
It would also be great if there were no leaders in the world whose reaction to Christchurch was: "It's terrible that he shot all these innocents, he should have fought the invasion of the muslim hordes, something that is totally happening, in a more civilized way". Those are a few thoughts, just spitballing here. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9118 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
On March 17 2019 08:50 Nebuchad wrote: My suggestions are making it harder for fascists to spread their garbage online and reach a target audience of teens to young adult males, which happen to be the demographic that is the most prone to ideological violence. Reinforce hate speech laws so that fascists can't abuse the rules of the marketplace of ideas. We could also do something about the islamophobic and more generally anti-immigration climate that we have in the first world. The region where I live ( Peel Region is Mississauga+Brampton) has a population of 1.4 million and had 16 murders in 2017. They have access to all this online garbage. We have a very low murder rate here. I think good family and community building in Brampton and Mississauga are a big factor in the low murder rate. Good kids coming out of good families rarely buy into this online garbage. Low Self Esteem kids in fucked up situations who are searching for an ideology to fill the void in their lives... those kids are vulnerable to this online BS. Occasionally, some trolly kids put a swastika on the side wall of a public school in Mississauga. https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/teens-charged-in-connection-with-hate-motivated-crime-at-mississauga-school-1.4056099 meh, I wouldn't get too over-excited about it because that is what these kids are looking for : attention. Punish them. and give them zero news coverage. Also , you need to give the kids a path to redemption. To label them as "scum for life" gives them no way out and strongly pushes them towards evolving into hardened criminals. | ||
KwarK
United States42689 Posts
On March 17 2019 08:56 Dan HH wrote: Youtube's solution to prevent the dissemination of the NZ video was to disable all the sort search functions for the time being. Meanwhile their algorithms keep recommending extremist videos to people searching for news or gaming related topics and things like anti-vax videos to people searching information about vaccinations. Note that this doesn't require people to have shown an interest in those types of videos before. I get recommended “Ben Shapiro shoots crying Muslims with facts and LOGIC until they literally die” videos all the time and I have no idea why, beyond just watching a lot of Dota on YouTube. It’s crazy. | ||
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KwarK
United States42689 Posts
On March 17 2019 09:35 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The region where I live ( Peel Region is Mississauga+Brampton) has a population of 1.4 million and had 16 murders in 2017. They have access to all this online garbage. We have a very low murder rate here. I think good family and community building in Brampton and Mississauga are a big factor in the low murder rate. Good kids coming out of good families rarely buy into this online garbage. Low Self Esteem kids in fucked up situations who are searching for an ideology to fill the void in their lives... those kids are vulnerable to this online BS. Occasionally, some trolly kids put a swastika on the side wall of a public school in Mississauga. https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/teens-charged-in-connection-with-hate-motivated-crime-at-mississauga-school-1.4056099 meh, I wouldn't get too over-excited about it because that is what these kids are looking for : attention. Punish them. and give them zero news coverage. Also , you need to give the kids a path to redemption. To label them as "scum for life" gives them no way out and strongly pushes them towards evolving into hardened criminals. Wasn’t Dylann Roof from a fairly normal background? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12177 Posts
They aren't scum for life, they're scum as long as they are fascists. Fascism is an ideology, not a skin color, they could always get up in the morning and not be fascists. Deradicalization programs are extremely good and are helpful of course, but I'd like to focus on the massive megaphone spouting the fascist ideas to a new audience at least as much as I focus on the people who are already caught in the web. It's also important to remember that fascists represent a direct threat to people around them. But that threat isn't equally distributed: straight white dudes are going to be fine. The people who have a higher chance of being targeted may worry about their own safety before they worry about giving fascists the best shot at redemption, and that makes sense. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
On March 17 2019 10:01 KwarK wrote: Wasn’t Dylann Roof from a fairly normal background? In 9 years he attended 7 schools. His genetic father abused his step-mother. He was hard core anti-social for a few years before the attack. As soon as his dad divorced his step-mom he ended contact with her even though she was his primary care-giver. Kids in divorced families can pull off this anti-social BS because they can pull the he/she is not my genetic relative. Having revolving door of adult authority figures in a child's life is not a solid foundation. Some kids can get through it... some can't. The more chaos you add .. the lower the probability the child succeeds. On March 17 2019 10:16 Nebuchad wrote: It's also important to remember that fascists represent a direct threat to people around them. But that threat isn't equally distributed: straight white dudes what about straight white jews? On March 17 2019 10:16 Nebuchad wrote: It's also important to remember that fascists represent a direct threat to people around them. Which is again why i say that better community building and better family building can prevent this stuff from happening. An important step in the ideologies of the killers is that "the other" is dehumanized or considered "less than human". | ||
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KwarK
United States42689 Posts
On March 17 2019 10:30 JimmyJRaynor wrote: In 9 years he attended 7 schools. His genetic father abused his step-mother. He was hard core anti-social for a few years before the attack. As soon as his dad divorced his step-mom he ended contact with her even though she was his primary care-giver. Kids in divorced families can pull off this anti-social BS because they can pull the he/she is not my genetic relative. Having revolving door of adult authority figures in a child's life is not a solid foundation. Some kids can get through it... some can't. The more chaos you add .. the lower the probability the child succeeds. what about straight white jews? Fascism isn’t always antisemitic. Neo Nazis are, of course, but that’s just one brand. Fascists like a foreign other to project all their problems onto but that doesn’t have to be Jews, it was just that Germany has a bunch of Jews (and Roma, who they also blamed) at the time. Had there been Muslims, or Mexicans, it would have been those. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
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micronesia
United States24680 Posts
On March 17 2019 10:30 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Which is again why i say that better community building and better family building can prevent this stuff from happening. An important step in the ideologies of the killers is that "the other" is dehumanized or considered "less than human". If you think that a major preventative step for mass shootings is better family building, can you explain what we should do about it? I mean, I'll try not to be a never-there single parent, but beyond that, what should we be doing? Any specific suggestions for actions? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12177 Posts
On March 17 2019 10:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote: ok, so "straight white dudes" would be inaccurate then. Who cares? | ||
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KwarK
United States42689 Posts
On March 17 2019 10:41 micronesia wrote: If you think that a major preventative step for mass shootings is better family building, can you explain what we should do about it? I mean, I'll try not to be a never-there single parent, but beyond that, what should we be doing? Any specific suggestions for actions? We could try not locking so many fathers up for a start. Maybe make it so that a lower class family don't need both parents to work 50 hours a week to feed their kids. Providing better access to healthcare too. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On March 17 2019 08:24 Nebuchad wrote: I don't want to debate who you are, that's up to you. This post reads as defensive to me and because I remember some posts from you that are in line with the far right, it felt natural to associate the two. If I'm wrong I apologize. If you're genuinely doing this because you want to explore the cause, then... don't. This isn't helpful commentary. We have no idea how he ended up where he is, except that 8chan and online radicalization was involved. Nothing good can come out of throwing darts at his life. He's right though, at least about it being a part of the problem. Family life in early formative years is a HUGE part of how people develop. My thought is that in no way can you blame all of this on family life... Human development is just a piece of what has to come together for something like this to happen... Lax gun laws is another extremely impactful piece... So is white nationalist radical terrorism existing on social media... So don't throw out everything he is saying, because too often mental health does get thrown out in favor of just focusing on gun laws. It has to be both. It's true you cannot know exactly what the shooter's life was like growing up, but it's almost certain he didn't get something of what he needed growing up. 100% of people that commit shootings like this are in some form of mental health crisis. People don't commit murder because they are getting all their needs met and thriving in life. *Keeping all that in mind... First and foremost I'm 1000% behind NZ changing their gun laws, then focusing on other things. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12177 Posts
On March 17 2019 10:48 KwarK wrote: We could try not locking so many fathers up for a start. Maybe make it so that a lower class family don't need both parents to work 50 hours a week to feed their kids. Providing better access to healthcare too. *tentatively plays the soviet anthem in the general direction of KwarK* More seriously, family structure and father presence are indicators when it comes to economic criminality rather than ideological criminality. | ||
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KwarK
United States42689 Posts
On March 17 2019 10:52 Nebuchad wrote: *tentatively plays the soviet anthem in the general direction of KwarK* More seriously, family structure and father presence are indicators when it comes to economic criminality rather than ideological criminality. I think there's absolutely a link between the structural failures of capitalism to meet the needs of a large portion of the American population and the radicalization of those people. They know that they've been failed, that they're surrounded by visions of wealth and prosperity and yet they're poorer than their parents, and they're looking for someone to blame. On average the country has never been richer, but it's not effectively delivering happiness to the population. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12177 Posts
On March 17 2019 10:51 ShambhalaWar wrote: He's right though, at least about it being a part of the problem. Family life in early formative years is a HUGE part of how people develop. My thought is that in no way can you blame all of this on family life... Human development is just a piece of what has to come together for something like this to happen... Lax gun laws is another extremely impactful piece... So is white nationalist radical terrorism existing on social media... So don't throw out everything he is saying, because too often mental health does get thrown out in favor of just focusing on gun laws. It has to be both. It's true you cannot know exactly what the shooter's life was like growing up, but it's almost certain he didn't get something of what he needed growing up. 100% of people that commit shootings like this are in some form of mental health crisis. People don't commit murder because they are getting all their needs met and thriving in life. *Keeping all that in mind... First and foremost I'm 1000% behind NZ changing their gun laws, then focusing on other things. The one from Charleston had an unstable childhood, then he was confronted with a fascist ideology. We could fix his childhood and maybe he'd be better. The one from Quebec City was bullied at school, then he struggled with depression and was confronted with a fascist ideology. We could fix his bullying or his depression and maybe he'd be better. The one from Christchurch had his father die when he was 18 or 19, then at some point later he was confronted with a fascist ideology. Maybe he was sad because his father died, maybe there was something else that we could fix and he'd be better. The one from Pittsburgh was... completely normal, kind of quiet, according to his neighbors, which makes him even more frightening. Turns out he was active in the fascist sphere online. We could... I don't know but there's something. The one from Norway... I have no idea, but his mother wrote a book before she died, maybe there are answers in there. There's also the fascism. It's no secret that when the economy goes well, people tend to be less racist. If our world was doing fine we'd run into less fascists and far right people. Reducing the problems of the world will reduce the scope of fascism. Reducing the problems of the world seems like it's a good idea, so I encourage all of you to join me on the anticapitalist left, the place where we work to make the world a better place. Until then, antifascism is a neat idea, and probably the main thing we should focus on when trying to address fascist violence. "100% of people that commit shootings like this are in some form of mental health crisis" is just something you say. There is no reason to assume that it is true, actually it's certainly an ableist statement. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
On March 17 2019 10:38 KwarK wrote: Fascists like a foreign other to project all their problems onto but that doesn’t have to be Jews, it was just that Germany has a bunch of Jews (and Roma, who they also blamed) at the time. Had there been Muslims, or Mexicans, it would have been those. this is a symptom of low self esteem. On March 17 2019 10:41 micronesia wrote: If you think that a major preventative step for mass shootings is better family building, can you explain what we should do about it? I mean, I'll try not to be a never-there single parent, but beyond that, what should we be doing? Any specific suggestions for actions? (a) If you are going to have a child with a woman.. make sure she is a quality human being and not just the "hottest chick you can bang". Ideally, you are her friend first. (b) An important aspect of community and family building involves learning how to nurture the self esteem of others. By nurturing the self esteem of others you will in turn nurture your own self esteem. Unfortunately, most people do not have a precise definition of what self esteem is. Here is a look at self esteem http://www.nathanielbranden.com/what-self-esteem-is-and-is-not “Self-esteem is the disposition to experience oneself as being competent to cope with the basic challenges of life and of being worthy of happiness. It is confidence in the efficacy of our mind, in our ability to think. By extension, it is confidence in our ability to learn, make appropriate choices and decisions, and respond effectively to change. It is also the experience that success, achievement, fulfillment – happiness – are right and natural for us. The survival-value of such confidence is obvious; so is the danger when it is missing.” Here is a comprehensive look at self esteem building. https://www.amazon.ca/Six-Pillars-Self-Esteem-Definitive-Leading/dp/0553374397/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=208290904950&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1002230&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=15855325423027539718&hvtargid=kwd-300639543285&keywords=6 pillars of self esteem&qid=1552787930&s=gateway&sr=8-1&tag=googcana-20 This is not for the faint of heart. Building self esteem is hard work and you may have to face things you do not want to face. Notice the final chapter is about building the self esteem of others. Your best shot at nurturing the self esteem of others occurs when you are in a position of strong self esteem. So work on yourself first. DISCLAIMER : This "self esteem" stuff doesn't apply if you have no access to water or are starving. It is a "1st world" issue It is not a "3rd world" issue. | ||
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micronesia
United States24680 Posts
"(a) If you are going to have a child with a woman.. make sure she is a quality human being and not just the "hottest chick you can bang". Ideally, you are her friend first." I mean I'll keep that in mind, but how do we actually prevent this in the more general population? "(b) An important aspect of community and family building involves learning how to nurture the self esteem of others. By nurturing the self esteem of others you will in turn nurture your own self esteem." How do we get people to nurture each other's self esteem? The reach of the people in this thread is pretty limited. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
On March 17 2019 11:18 micronesia wrote:(b) An important aspect of community and family building involves learning how to nurture the self esteem of others. By nurturing the self esteem of others you will in turn nurture your own self esteem." How do we get people to nurture each other's self esteem? The reach of the people in this thread is pretty limited. for far reaching impact i recommend the book i linked entitled "The 6 Pillars of Self Esteem". For local impact, I nurture the self esteem of others within my own little network of people. As another example, KelianQatar does the same thing within her little network of people. The book I linked works much better when the person to whom I've recommended it can come back to me with questions. I can also tailor certain ideas to their situation. Keep in mind, self esteem building is not easy. | ||
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micronesia
United States24680 Posts
On March 17 2019 11:22 JimmyJRaynor wrote: for far reaching impact i recommend the book i linked entitled "The 6 Pillars of Self Esteem". For local impact, I nurture the self esteem of others within my own little network of people. As another example, KelianQatar does the same thing within her little network of people. The book I linked works much better when the person to whom I've recommended it can come back to me with questions. I can also tailor certain ideas to their situation. Keep in mind, self esteem building is not easy. You didn't really answer my questions (either one). For the second, I asked, how do we get people overall to nurture each other's self esteem, and you linked me to a book. That is not a valid answer. Unless the book is titled, "How to get people overall to nurture each other's self esteem in 3 easy steps," you have stiff-armed me. Even if that was the title of the book, you would have a responsibility to summarize to some extent how the book can actually get people overall to nurture each other's self esteem. If you are going to randomly bring up the concept of the deterioration of the family unit in a discussion about a mass shooting, you should be much more prepared than this to discuss it. | ||
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