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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On December 15 2012 04:25 L3g3nd_ wrote:
whens the last time you heard of a school shooting outside of the US? i can name 5-6 major school shootings from the US in the last 10 years, but not a single one outside of the US. it isnt a bloody coincidence.
There has been school shootings. But they're much much more rare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#North_America
Compare the US's list with Canada, since the others on the list are continents and not countries.
Canada has 11 from 1902 to 2010.
The list for the US school shooting is way too long. I don't even want to bother to count.
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On December 15 2012 04:32 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 04:31 heliusx wrote:On December 15 2012 04:29 nennx wrote:
americans have pretty much proven themselves incapable of owning guns, so we shouldn't be allowed to have them yeah, you're right. americans are clearly murderers they shouldn't have guns. because crazy killers are just like 99.9999999999999% of americans. not just murderers most gun violence happens on accident or in fits of rage where other violent alternatives wouldn't be nearly as deadly
like i said, equating 0.000000000000001% of the population with all americans is completely logical.
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On December 15 2012 04:19 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 04:17 Aleteh wrote:
Any American defending their retarded "hurr durr defence" law must be mental :/ Any foreigner who thinks they know whats best for america when they are 100% ignorant to the situation must be mental.
Wow at this point you're just as idiotic as Esk23. Because someone lives in a different country they can't understand our own? Golly gee willikers Mr McCarthy.
Although Aleteh I'd probably kick your ass if you said that to me in person at this moment. You shouldn't be proud of that post.
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On December 15 2012 04:26 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 04:25 L3g3nd_ wrote:
whens the last time you heard of a school shooting outside of the US? i can name 5-6 major school shootings from the US in the last 10 years, but not a single one outside of the US. it isnt a bloody coincidence. Yeah the coincidence is you obviously don't read foreign news. You've never heard of them so obviously they don't exist.
huh? i live in NZ, this is foreign news. school shootings is an epidemic specific to the USA. SOMETHING needs to be done.
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On December 15 2012 04:34 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 04:32 nennx wrote:On December 15 2012 04:31 heliusx wrote:On December 15 2012 04:29 nennx wrote:
americans have pretty much proven themselves incapable of owning guns, so we shouldn't be allowed to have them yeah, you're right. americans are clearly murderers they shouldn't have guns. because crazy killers are just like 99.9999999999999% of americans. not just murderers most gun violence happens on accident or in fits of rage where other violent alternatives wouldn't be nearly as deadly like i said, equating 0.000000000000001% of the population with all americans is completely logical.
Its not that few of the population, and even if it was, it doesn't really justify the loss of life caused by guns. If you think the tens and thousands of deaths each year caused by guns is worth having guns for, fine.
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On December 15 2012 04:34 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 04:25 L3g3nd_ wrote:
whens the last time you heard of a school shooting outside of the US? i can name 5-6 major school shootings from the US in the last 10 years, but not a single one outside of the US. it isnt a bloody coincidence. There has been school shootings. But they're much much more rare. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#North_AmericaCompare the US's list with Canada, since the others on the list are continents and not countries. Canada has 11 from 1902 to 2010. The list for the US school shooting is way too long. I don't even want to bother to count.
You can't really compare the Us and Canada on such issues.
It's not just because of gun laws that we have more murders/crime/school shootings then Canada.
We have more poverty, more minorities, more racism, more religious nuts, more anti religious nuts. There are lots of issues that have to do with this, not just gun control.
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On December 15 2012 04:35 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 04:19 heliusx wrote:On December 15 2012 04:17 Aleteh wrote:
Any American defending their retarded "hurr durr defence" law must be mental :/ Any foreigner who thinks they know whats best for america when they are 100% ignorant to the situation must be mental. Wow at this point you're just as idiotic as Esk23. Because someone lives in a different country they can't understand our own? Golly gee willikers Mr McCarthy. Although Aleteh I'd probably kick your ass if you said that to me in person at this moment. You shouldn't be proud of that post.
You're the one being idiotic. No where did I claim it's impossible for a foreigner to understand the situation. Don't put words in my mouth. aleteh clearly is ignorant to the situation and I let him know by mocking his post.
edit; aleteh made the post not esk
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The only fucking difference being that Alcohol kills the abuser. Guns kill innocents who are not even related to the person owning the gun. You are fucking dense. I don't give a shit if someone drinks himself to death. Its his stupidity. However, I don't want his stupidity affecting me or my family. How hard is it for you to understand? It's the same reason why more people are opposed to smoking than drinking. Smoking affects others through secondary and passive smoke, and hence a much larger problem to the general public.
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On December 15 2012 04:35 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 04:19 heliusx wrote:On December 15 2012 04:17 Aleteh wrote:
Any American defending their retarded "hurr durr defence" law must be mental :/ Any foreigner who thinks they know whats best for america when they are 100% ignorant to the situation must be mental. Wow at this point you're just as idiotic as Esk23. Because someone lives in a different country they can't understand our own? Golly gee willikers Mr McCarthy. Although Aleteh I'd probably kick your ass if you said that to me in person at this moment. You shouldn't be proud of that post.
Calling people idiots which can easily be directed back at you shows the height of your own intelligence. Good job.
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On December 15 2012 04:39 Piledriver wrote:The only fucking difference being that Alcohol kills the abuser. Guns kill innocents who are not even related to the person owning the gun. You are fucking dense. I don't give a shit if someone drinks himself to death. Its his stupidity. However, I don't want his stupidity affecting me or my family. How hard is it for you to understand?
How about people who drink and drive and kill an innocent family on the road?
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On December 15 2012 04:39 Piledriver wrote:The only fucking difference being that Alcohol kills the abuser. Guns kill innocents who are not even related to the person owning the gun. You are fucking dense.
Please read the article.
"Another 40,933 died from car crashes and other mishaps caused by excessive alcohol use."
Drunk driving, drunks getting violent, drunks being clumsy and needing rescued all endanger innocents.
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How is alcohol a relevant comparison? People can choose whether or not to intake alcohol. Not to mention, everyone already knows that drunk driving is an issue and its completely illegal. Quite a few gun shootings aren't illegal and isn't considered and issue that needs to be changed. Also your 30000 number has gone up since 1998.
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On December 15 2012 04:39 sva wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 04:34 Eps wrote:On December 15 2012 04:25 L3g3nd_ wrote:
whens the last time you heard of a school shooting outside of the US? i can name 5-6 major school shootings from the US in the last 10 years, but not a single one outside of the US. it isnt a bloody coincidence. There has been school shootings. But they're much much more rare. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#North_AmericaCompare the US's list with Canada, since the others on the list are continents and not countries. Canada has 11 from 1902 to 2010. The list for the US school shooting is way too long. I don't even want to bother to count. You can't really compare the Us and Canada on such issues. It's not just because of gun laws that we have more murders/crime/school shootings then Canada. We have more poverty, more minorities, more racism, more religious nuts, more anti religious nuts. There are lots of issues that have to do with this, not just gun control.
I wonder what those numbers would look like if you took out metropolitan areas. Gun crime is far less prevalent when you leave cities.
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On December 15 2012 04:25 L3g3nd_ wrote:
whens the last time you heard of a school shooting outside of the US? i can name 5-6 major school shootings from the US in the last 10 years, but not a single one outside of the US. it isnt a bloody coincidence.
There's gun crime elsewhere too. Of course, it's utterly ridiculous to get into the "what if" arguments of whether an armed civilian could have mitigated a situation. The answer is pretty blatantly "sometimes".
The fact is, all other arguments aside, criminals in America own firearms. Even the ones who don't own firearms tend to work in groups, or use other potentially lethal weapons. Nothing is guaranteed to save your life in a potentially lethal situation. However, a gun is a great equalizer.
I'm ex-Infantry, do martial arts to stay in shape, and I still own a handgun, and plan to get a CHL for it. In the meantime, I take advantage of the Texas Motorist Protection Act, and carry while driving, when it seems like the better option.
Just recently, me and my wife bought something on Craigslist, for example. Worse side of town, carrying cash, had our toddler with us. You're goddamn right I had my 9mm in the truck with me, and loaded. It's not like every person who owns a gun uses it for crime. In fact, it's probably a paltry percentage. Plenty of law abiding citizens just feel better knowing they have the means to defend themselves and their families against bodily harm or worse, regardless of the situation.
If, for example, three dudes with a baseball bat or two kicked in my door (not particularly unreasonable) with the intent of robbing our apartment, all my training and experience would mean about jack shit in close quarters, unarmed. With a knife or other hand weapon, WITH considerably more training than the average civilian, I give myself good odds of taking one out of the fight, and injuring a second in that situation, if I was awake when it happened. In other words, doing just enough damage to guarantee reprisals against myself and my family.
Give me my handgun, and I guarantee you, even if I'm asleep when it happens, best case scenario, three criminals fleeing or in custody, worst case, the body count doesn't include my wife or three year old son. I'd be able to look myself in the mirror if I took a life to protect my family.
What really sickens me, though, is people who have never experienced crime or violence, who think it's some sort of moral high ground to sacrifice the well-being of the innocent on the altar of gun control.
Do guns solve more problems than they create? I don't know, there's all kinds of statistics out there, and sifting through the muddle is insane. In a situation where the criminals are already armed, however, I can only imagine one response, and that's protecting my family.
Does that make me some kind of sicko, just waiting to go all cowboy on someone? No. I've just seen the ugly side of reality. In my eyes, anyone who sets out to endanger others for their own gain is gambling their rights. The judicial system sees it the same way, prison is a denial of rights, to protect the well-being of society. It isn't vigilantism, it's prevention.
Would we really rather see some guy in prison for killing three people than seeing one guy dead for trying to kill three people? If so, what the fuck has society come to, where the well-being of the criminal becomes more valuable than the well-being of the victim?
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On December 15 2012 04:41 Timurid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 04:39 Piledriver wrote:The only fucking difference being that Alcohol kills the abuser. Guns kill innocents who are not even related to the person owning the gun. You are fucking dense. I don't give a shit if someone drinks himself to death. Its his stupidity. However, I don't want his stupidity affecting me or my family. How hard is it for you to understand? How about people who drink and drive and kill an innocent family on the road?
Precisely why we have laws against drinking and driving. Any suspicious person indulging in driving can be pulled over and arrested for drunk driving. Unfortunately people cant be pulled over and arrested for carrying automatics near schools. Thanks for proving my point.
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If nobody on earth would have guns, there would be no need to get guns in the first place.
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On December 15 2012 04:14 Esk23 wrote:Guns aren't even close to the leading causes of death in the United States, in fact they aren't even in the top 10. Why doesn't anyone ever hear about these in the media: •Number of deaths: 2,437,163•Death rate: 793.8 deaths per 100,000 population •Life expectancy: 78.5 years •Infant Mortality rate: 6.39 deaths per 1,000 live births Number of deaths for leading causes of death:•Heart disease: 599,413 •Cancer: 567,628 •Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353 •Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842 •Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021 •Alzheimer's disease: 79,003 •Diabetes: 68,705 •Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692 •Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935 •Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909 http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htmFirearm homicides•Number of deaths: 11,493•Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.7 http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
Oh, only 10k per year. WTF are you kidding that's still a lot! And furthermore, it's not like we AREN'T constantly trying to prevent deaths due to disease and other medical conditions and literally every item on that list, so why shouldn't we be trying to prevent deaths from firearm homicides?
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On December 15 2012 04:43 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 04:41 Timurid wrote:On December 15 2012 04:39 Piledriver wrote:The only fucking difference being that Alcohol kills the abuser. Guns kill innocents who are not even related to the person owning the gun. You are fucking dense. I don't give a shit if someone drinks himself to death. Its his stupidity. However, I don't want his stupidity affecting me or my family. How hard is it for you to understand? How about people who drink and drive and kill an innocent family on the road? Precisely why we have laws against drinking and driving. Any suspicious person indulging in driving can be pulled over and arrested for drunk driving. Unfortunately people cant be pulled over and arrested for carrying automatics near schools. Thanks for proving my point.
But shooting innocent people is already illegal. Having alcohol isn't illegal, using it irresponsibly is.
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On December 15 2012 04:30 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 04:18 Eps wrote:On December 15 2012 04:07 Sermokala wrote:On December 15 2012 03:53 heliusx wrote:On December 15 2012 03:48 Crisium wrote:
It's the same argument, unfortunately. If guns didn't exist, this tragedy would either not have happened or been less deadly (assuming a man with a knife could be stopped sooner). However, if guns were illegal to own, it still would have been possible because you can still get something that exists even if illegal. So it goes. That's pretty much the crux of it. It would probably take 100 years or more before guns could be eradicated in america. Outright banning firearms would lead to a long time of law abiding citizens being defenseless versus criminals armed with them. It sucks but thats the reality of the situation. The real question is how to deal with that fact. It wouldn't even work like that. Guns will still be passed down family to family out in the country. My family still use's the same WW1 rifles that our family used back in the war. Repairing old guns are a lot easier then new ones. there is no way to actually ban guns no more then it is capable of doing it in a third world country. Most gang violence is done from illegally owned cheap handguns that the users probably aren't allowed to use guns in the first place. More people are killed in many different ways then mass shootings but because they don't get as much media attention people think that they're not as much of a problem then anything else. Banning guns is not feasible at this stage. The issue is also with gun culture and the odd belief that more guns makes the society safer. I find there's this really odd hero complex with gun owners, where they believe that one day a bad situation will happen to them - and they'll be armed and ready to deal with it. If you go on firearm forums and such, you'll find its prevalent everywhere. There should also be tighter restrictions and regulations on the process it takes to get a gun. With my experience in Canada, I took a firearms course - required 2 days. I knew from the end of the course I had passed. It took 5 months for them to mail me back my Firearms course certificate back to me from the firearms regulation office. I have to mail out my certificate to the proper licensing office now, and I assume it'll take about the same amount of time for me to obtain my license. It's legal to obtain a handgun here as well as semi-automatic rifles in Canada. Yes there are restrictions, but it is perfectly legal. The process is just far longer than it would take in the US. Not asking to be offensive, but out of curiosity. But how long does it take to obtain a gun in the US? From what people have told me, it's anywhere between the day of to 7 days depending on what state. I just wanted to verify. It depends on the gun and the state honestly. Handguns are regulated pretty much everywhere, with a few variations on the regulation. They mostly consist of background checks, a short waiting period, and occasional restrictions on specific details like magazine size. There's also differing restrictions on carrying them. Rifles are generally much easier to get. I'm in NY, and could buy a crappy hunting rifle at Wal-Mart right now. They'd run a quick automated background check, but after that I could leave with my gun. Semi-autos are pretty heavily restricted, and full-autos are outright banned. The only national restriction is on fully-automatic weapons. They were banned in the 80's, but any already in existence were still legal. They require tons of time-consuming and expensive certifications, and aren't legal in all states.
Thank you for the information. I just wanted to know since I get way too many different responses.
Fully automatic weapons are banned in Canada, as well as most semi-auto civilian market variants of assault rifles as well.
Shotguns and (hunting/bolt action) rifles are much less restricted. But I still require a license to obtain them.
While handguns are legal in Canada, the regulations are extremely strict. I legally cannot move a handgun from my car to a different destination without obtaining and completing a federal form.
Canada was a hunting nation, and it is still a part of our culture. From 2007 listing, we have the 13th most guns per capita in the world. The US Ranks at 1.
But we've developed in a way that is much more different than the US. I'd attribute it to history since the US fought for their Independence, and that mentality has stayed with them. While Canada's Independence was gained through various factors, IE. WWI / WWII.
The US needs some changes to stop gun violence, and it need to start with the culture.
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