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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Jisall
United States2054 Posts
On December 15 2012 03:56 Sea_Food wrote: Here in finland we have very strict gun control laws, yet we have had 2 school shooting massacres during the past 5 years. If we compare our population, USA would need to have 120 school shooting for it to be equal. | ||
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Reaps
United Kingdom1280 Posts
On December 15 2012 04:00 Crisium wrote: So you think that only pump action, bolt action, lever action, etc should be legal to own? No im not saying any guns should be legal to own. If you read my post im saying that for the people that are claiming they need guns for self defence then you dont need anything more as an handgun MAYBE but even that is pushing it imo. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Today is a grim retort to that argument. | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
On December 15 2012 03:59 Reaps wrote: Semi automatic then, both much more powerful than an handgun Most handguns are semi-automatic, I actually can't think of any that aren't. Unless you're shooting at people with body armor, or hundreds of yards away, it doesn't really matter too much how powerful the gun is. On December 15 2012 03:48 Crisium wrote: It's the same argument, unfortunately. If guns didn't exist, this tragedy would either not have happened or been less deadly (assuming a man with a knife could be stopped sooner). However, if guns were illegal to own, it still would have been possible because you can still get something that exists even if illegal. So it goes. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2012/12/2012121481220620325.html tl; dr 22 kids stabbed in an elementary school in China. Stabbed, not shot. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On December 15 2012 04:00 Crisium wrote: So you think that only pump action, bolt action, lever action, etc should be legal to own? revolvers are also not semi-auto technically iirc, personally I think limiting legal magazine sizes and slowing the rate of fire is an achievable point for gun control activists. For sport and self protection it wouldn't hurt either role too much and is far more reasonable vs just flat out banning guns or increasing limits to obtain a gun. On December 15 2012 03:58 Reaps wrote: I heard on news it was an automatic rifle, if not then my bad. semi-auto, not full auto; not that it would have changed the results much many guns on full auto are un-wieldy to the untrained. On December 15 2012 03:53 heliusx wrote: That's pretty much the crux of it. It would probably take 100 years or more before guns could be eradicated in america. Outright banning firearms would lead to a long time of law abiding citizens being defenseless versus criminals armed with them. It sucks but thats the reality of the situation. The real question is how to deal with that fact. Strict gun laws do work but it in large part doesn't stop organized crime from having one, granted organized crime is less likely to go on massacres as they are out to make money not put people in body bags for the most part. I mean if you take an extreme such as japan which has very strict gun laws, not an easy boarder to smuggle guns and a culture that takes guns at a dislike you only see guns in organized crime. It would even if similar laws were placed into effect in the US a very long time till they actually start to see real results just from the culture and sheer availability of guns in the US. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
On December 15 2012 04:03 Reaps wrote: No im not saying any guns should be legal to own. If you read my post im saying that for the people that are claiming they need guns for self defence then you dont need anything more as an handgun MAYBE but even that is pushing it imo. handguns? you mean the most efficient firearm for mass shootings? they are compact to conceal, fire semiautomatic, and are just as effective as a rifle at the range that mass shootings take place. | ||
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Eps
Canada240 Posts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910 China - Guns outlawed. No dead. 22 injured, including 2 critically injured, hopefully they will recover. Connecticut School Shooting - So far reported 20 dead, I've read reports of 27 and counting. I hope there isn't anymore. http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/us/connecticut-school-shooting/index.html It's an odd comparison, but I think it proves the point. Take away the different political systems and just compare the gun regulation laws. | ||
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Danzo
2820 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13906 Posts
On December 15 2012 03:53 heliusx wrote: That's pretty much the crux of it. It would probably take 100 years or more before guns could be eradicated in america. Outright banning firearms would lead to a long time of law abiding citizens being defenseless versus criminals armed with them. It sucks but thats the reality of the situation. The real question is how to deal with that fact. It wouldn't even work like that. Guns will still be passed down family to family out in the country. My family still use's the same WW1 rifles that our family used back in the war. Repairing old guns are a lot easier then new ones. there is no way to actually ban guns no more then it is capable of doing it in a third world country. Most gang violence is done from illegally owned cheap handguns that the users probably aren't allowed to use guns in the first place. More people are killed in many different ways then mass shootings but because they don't get as much media attention people think that they're not as much of a problem then anything else. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
I think people are just unaware how MANY guns this country has, we are literally saturated with them. It is not only the many ways to get access to a gun, or the loopholes, or the lack of oversight, or the massive lobbying muscle behind the gun industry it is also our culture, Guns in a sense won us Independence and it is buried into brains that if we allow even a marginal amount of government control then we are essentially being taken over. It's madness. Also keep in mind two cops were shot today in Memphis by a 15 year old one has died. | ||
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Reaps
United Kingdom1280 Posts
On December 15 2012 04:07 heliusx wrote: handguns? you mean the most efficient firearm for mass shootings? they are compact to conceal, fire semiautomatic, and are just as effective as a rifle at the range that mass shootings take place. Was more talking about the batman shootings, guy parks hes car around back of cinema, walks through fire exit and unloads with a semi automatic and a shotgun, even had smoke grenades. Amazing. | ||
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Danzo
2820 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On December 15 2012 04:10 Danzo wrote: How can a government go about mass banning fire arms without doing it in a tyrannical fashion? Also wouldn't this just become lovely for the underground/black market which in later induce more organized crime and violence? Therein lies the problem preventive control versus mass paranoia which Americans are known for. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On December 15 2012 04:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: reposting: I think people are just unaware how MANY guns this country has, we are literally saturated with them. It is not only the many ways to get access to a gun, or the loopholes, or the lack of oversight, or the massive lobbying muscle behind the gun industry it is also our culture, Guns in a sense won us Independence and it is buried into brains that if we allow even a marginal amount of government control then we are essentially being taken over. It's madness. Also keep in mind two cops were shot today in Memphis by a 15 year old one has died. Every time I hear about a police shooting I just think of Kyle Dinkheller(if you search for the video it's not graphic visually but it's extremely disturbing audio), makes me sad every time as well. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
This goes completely against what I just said, but what do people think of a higher age limit on gun ownership? I may be wrong, but it seems like a lot of the craziness is done by young people, and having a minimum age limit of 25 would stop a lot of the crazy shootings. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On December 15 2012 04:10 Danzo wrote: How can a government go about mass banning fire arms without doing it in a tyrannical fashion? Also wouldn't this just become lovely for the underground/black market which in later induce more organized crime and violence? Through legislation just like they did in the 90s. It's not magic. | ||
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Esk23
United States447 Posts
•Number of deaths: 2,437,163 •Death rate: 793.8 deaths per 100,000 population •Life expectancy: 78.5 years •Infant Mortality rate: 6.39 deaths per 1,000 live births Number of deaths for leading causes of death: •Heart disease: 599,413 •Cancer: 567,628 •Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353 •Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842 •Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021 •Alzheimer's disease: 79,003 •Diabetes: 68,705 •Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692 •Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935 •Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909 http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm Firearm homicides •Number of deaths: 11,493 •Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.7 http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
On December 15 2012 04:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: reposting: I think people are just unaware how MANY guns this country has, we are literally saturated with them. It is not only the many ways to get access to a gun, or the loopholes, or the lack of oversight, or the massive lobbying muscle behind the gun industry it is also our culture, Guns in a sense won us Independence and it is buried into brains that if we allow even a marginal amount of government control then we are essentially being taken over. It's madness. Also keep in mind two cops were shot today in Memphis by a 15 year old one has died. I think people are just unaware how much alcohol this country has, we are literally saturated with it. It is not only the many ways to get access to alcohol, or the loopholes, or the lack of oversight, or the massive lobbying muscle behind the alcohol industry it is also our culture, It's madness. Also keep in mind 4 were killed and 8 injured when a drunk driver drove through a bus stop. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/14/4-dead-8-injured-after-suspected-drunk-driver-plows-into-bus-stop-in-vegas/ | ||
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Reaps
United Kingdom1280 Posts
On December 15 2012 04:14 Esk23 wrote: Guns aren't even close to the leading causes of death in the United States, in fact they aren't even in the top 10. Why doesn't anyone ever hear about these in the media: •Number of deaths: 2,437,163 •Death rate: 793.8 deaths per 100,000 population •Life expectancy: 78.5 years •Infant Mortality rate: 6.39 deaths per 1,000 live births Number of deaths for leading causes of death: •Heart disease: 599,413 •Cancer: 567,628 •Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353 •Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842 •Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021 •Alzheimer's disease: 79,003 •Diabetes: 68,705 •Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692 •Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935 •Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909 http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm Firearm homicides •Number of deaths: 11,493 •Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.7 http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm End of story. Comparing gun deaths with natural diseases, are you serious? | ||
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