Only tip of the iceberg. Both sides did use violence and terrosim, the stronger won, the only "right" Jewish people have to those lands is a right of being stronger. I can respect that, but dont pretend You are better than Palestinians, Your are not. Also another nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks
So comparing 65 years ago to actions today is fine, right? also people seem to ignore this form your link: "American author Thurston Clarke's analysis of the bombing gave timings for calls and for the explosion which he says took place at 12:37. He said that as part of the Irgun plan, a sixteen year old recruit, Adina Hay (alias Tehia), was to make three warning calls before the attack. At 12:22 the first call was made, in both Hebrew and English, to a telephone operator on the hotel's switchboard (the Secretariat and the military each had their own, separate, telephone exchanges). It was ignored.[4] At 12:27, the second warning call was made to the French Consulate adjacent to the hotel to the north-east. This second call was taken seriously and staff went through the building opening windows and closing curtains to lessen the impact of the blast. At 12:31 a third and final warning call to the Palestine Post newspaper was made. The telephone operator called the Palestine Police CID to report the message. She then called the hotel switchboard. The hotel operator reported the threat to one of the hotel managers. This warning resulted in the discovery of the milk churns in the basement, but by then it was too late.[4]" Their intent was to destroy HQ of the Britisher mandate, if they wanted to kill people why warn them before? Then again you compare attacking the HQ 65 years ago to sending rockets at civilians today.
More OT this observer-state changes nothing, Abbas (Abu Mazen) fears his position as more corruption allegation have surfaced recently and he has hit a new low in popular support. The only practical thing the PA can gain from this is use of the ICC and that would be political suicide.
Lol... fabulous excuse.
Also have one for the ~10k Palestinian civilians that Israeli soldiers have murdered in the past 25 years? Yep, that's not 65 years ago.
Edit: for comparison, Palestinians haven't even reached 2000 in the same period. So yea, what ever period we take to compare, you're the bad ones.
Show proof that 10k are civilians, oh wait you cant! Also this isnt a numbers game and is not relevant to the topic so im done discussing it in this thread.
Right on. Let's not talk about the problem but just shoot some Arabs - Israeli style.
Still waiting for that proof of 10k civilians in the last 25 years. Until you provide it, nothing you say will or should be taken seriously as those who randomly shout without proof add nothing to a discussion.
Should be noted that btselem are often accused of having too broad of a definition of what consitutes a civilian, apparently they included palestinians who attacked israeli during the second infatada. It's always a matter of definition.
These are Palestinians civilians killed by Isreali Defence forces and Isreali civlians (i assume settlers militia). Palestinians casulties are not included in these numbers (which You can clearly see in the links).
I'm saying their numbers lie, because they claim it's civilians, but it's a matter of definition who is a civilian and who isn't.
Other sources claim even higher numbers so....... Those are actualy one of the lowest numbers i could find.
Edit: Back on topic, i think now Palstinian will be accepted into more and more international institutions. I have read somewhere that USA (Hilary Clinton to be exact) have blatantly threatened Palestine to not join International Court of Justice. Thoughts?
Only tip of the iceberg. Both sides did use violence and terrosim, the stronger won, the only "right" Jewish people have to those lands is a right of being stronger. I can respect that, but dont pretend You are better than Palestinians, Your are not. Also another nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks
So comparing 65 years ago to actions today is fine, right? also people seem to ignore this form your link: "American author Thurston Clarke's analysis of the bombing gave timings for calls and for the explosion which he says took place at 12:37. He said that as part of the Irgun plan, a sixteen year old recruit, Adina Hay (alias Tehia), was to make three warning calls before the attack. At 12:22 the first call was made, in both Hebrew and English, to a telephone operator on the hotel's switchboard (the Secretariat and the military each had their own, separate, telephone exchanges). It was ignored.[4] At 12:27, the second warning call was made to the French Consulate adjacent to the hotel to the north-east. This second call was taken seriously and staff went through the building opening windows and closing curtains to lessen the impact of the blast. At 12:31 a third and final warning call to the Palestine Post newspaper was made. The telephone operator called the Palestine Police CID to report the message. She then called the hotel switchboard. The hotel operator reported the threat to one of the hotel managers. This warning resulted in the discovery of the milk churns in the basement, but by then it was too late.[4]" Their intent was to destroy HQ of the Britisher mandate, if they wanted to kill people why warn them before? Then again you compare attacking the HQ 65 years ago to sending rockets at civilians today.
More OT this observer-state changes nothing, Abbas (Abu Mazen) fears his position as more corruption allegation have surfaced recently and he has hit a new low in popular support. The only practical thing the PA can gain from this is use of the ICC and that would be political suicide.
Lol... fabulous excuse.
Also have one for the ~10k Palestinian civilians that Israeli soldiers have murdered in the past 25 years? Yep, that's not 65 years ago.
Edit: for comparison, Palestinians haven't even reached 2000 in the same period. So yea, what ever period we take to compare, you're the bad ones.
Show proof that 10k are civilians, oh wait you cant! Also this isnt a numbers game and is not relevant to the topic so im done discussing it in this thread.
Right on. Let's not talk about the problem but just shoot some Arabs - Israeli style.
Still waiting for that proof of 10k civilians in the last 25 years. Until you provide it, nothing you say will or should be taken seriously as those who randomly shout without proof add nothing to a discussion.
Should be noted that btselem are often accused of having too broad of a definition of what consitutes a civilian, apparently they included palestinians who attacked israeli during the second infatada. It's always a matter of definition.
These are Palestinians civilians killed by Isreali Defence forces and Isreali civlians (i assume settlers militia). Palestinians casulties are not included in these numbers (which You can clearly see in the links).
I'm saying their numbers lie, because they claim it's civilians, but it's a matter of definition who is a civilian and who isn't.
It's not a number game any way, it shouldn't matter if different parties inflate / deflate the number to their own political advantage, the whole point is to have regard for human life, not for a political numbers game. Don't play to the rules arbitrarily created for you by the media, what matters is human happiness / suffering and plausible solutions.
I like how im accused of being a extremist by people who make up over 8,500+ dead civilians. To many people think they know about the conflict when in truth they dont.
On November 30 2012 20:54 Goozen wrote: I like how im accused of being a extremist by people who make up over 8,500+ dead civilians. To many people think they know about the conflict when in truth they dont.
As far as I know, no one here is a multi-million dollar media mongrel or a government / special interest group, no one is making up anything, they are all just trying to find sources and figuring shit out on their own. If you have sources, post them. If you have proof that posters are purposefully willfully ignorant or maliciously making things up while knowing the truth, explain why commonly cited sources are wrong.
Cross references sources from Israeli / Palestinian and international rights groups / monitoring agencies. Numbers before 2000 are very hard to find due to lack of monitoring (on the part of both sides of the conflict and international agencies mind you, not because of some malicious political goal to hide the truth)
On November 30 2012 20:54 Goozen wrote: I like how im accused of being a extremist by people who make up over 8,500+ dead civilians. To many people think they know about the conflict when in truth they dont.
As far as I know, no one here is a multi-million dollar media mongrel or a government / special interest group, no one is making up anything, they are all just trying to find sources and figuring shit out on their own. If you have sources, post them. If you have proof that posters are purposefully willfully ignorant or maliciously making things up while knowing the truth, explain why commonly cited sources are wrong.
Was talking about Passion who was pulling numbers without any source. There are fair number of people who post without having a clue or without any sources.
On November 30 2012 21:00 Cillas wrote: espc. when they are israelian sources ffs (like btselem)
The fact that its Israeli means nothing, you have a lot of radical left groups in Israel. This is the same as people who use Haaretz newspaper as a source without knowing that its also left.
On November 30 2012 21:00 Cillas wrote: espc. when they are israelian sources ffs (like btselem)
The fact that its Israeli means nothing, you have a lot of radical left groups in Israel. This is the same as people who use Haaretz newspaper as a source without knowing that its also left.
Fundamentally all human rights organizations who preach fundamental equality are leftist, all charitable groups engaging in altruistic action are also leftist, how are you going to avoid that? If you question their journalistic integrity then prove it, I can think of plenty of times in history when right-ist and left-ist media sources preserved their journalist integrity and that helped save lives.
edit: did not see your post nyone while i was replying.
On November 30 2012 20:54 Goozen wrote: I like how im accused of being a extremist by people who make up over 8,500+ dead civilians. To many people think they know about the conflict when in truth they dont.
As far as I know, no one here is a multi-million dollar media mongrel or a government / special interest group, no one is making up anything, they are all just trying to find sources and figuring shit out on their own. If you have sources, post them. If you have proof that posters are purposefully willfully ignorant or maliciously making things up while knowing the truth, explain why commonly cited sources are wrong.
Was talking about Passion who was pulling numbers without any source. There are fair number of people who post without having a clue or without any sources.
Goozen, my dear, I've been studying this conflict for well over 10 years now. These numbers are common knowledge, as far as I know, and I just didn't find a radical extremist like yourself worth the effort of digging it all up again. Lucky you however, as others have done so. I would say this shows I didn't pull them randomly.
That said, what's going to be the impact of Palestine now being an observer state, and how long will it take before they gain full membership? The main point right now seems to be formal recognition and the somewhat official breaking with the tradition "Palestine is bad" and "Israel is good" paradigm.
The sad part is that the overwhelming majority of countries voted for the Palestinians in this matter. In the world, there are basically two nations who think Israel is a respectable country : the US and Israel itself (and some other minor countries who act as the US want them to). It's quite easy to see that even here on TL: people who defend Israel after each bombing event are either Israelis or americans. Israel, one of the most hated state in the world, still thinking everything it does is good and that this hate is just "antisemitism" because you know the US, the major superpower of our time, is backing them every time.
It's also interesting to see how every Israelis posters always bend reality and can't free themselves from their patriotism. At some point you just can't back up your country when it's doing some wild shit for fifty years. At least America came to question itself after the Viet Nam failure or the Iraq failure. From my point of view it's true patriotism to rise and question yourself. Sionist should start reading some work made by jews who suffered the 2nd ww such as Viktor Klemperer, those were great men.
On November 30 2012 21:58 WhiteDog wrote: The sad part is that the overwhelming majority of countries voted for the Palestinians in this matter. In the world, there are basically two nations who think Israel is a respectable country : the US and Israel itself (and some other minor countries who act as the US want them to). It's quite easy to see that even here on TL: people who defend Israel after each bombing event are either Israelis or americans. Israel, one of the most hated state in the world, still thinking everything it does is good and that this hate is just "antisemitism" because you know the US, the major superpower of our time, is backing them every time.
It's also interesting to see how every Israelis posters always bend reality and can't free themselves from their patriotism. At some point you just can't back up your country when it's doing some wild shit for fifty years. At least America came to question itself after the Viet Nam failure or the Iraq failure. From my point of view it's true patriotism to rise and question yourself. Sionist should start reading some work made by jews who suffered the 2nd ww such as Viktor Klemperer, those were great men.
I think you misunderstood what the UN vote was for, as even US and Israel recognize the need for 2 states. it wasnt a X vs Y vote.
For people attacking the US for backing Israel, you think they should back Palestine and leave Israel high and dry? What if Hamas seizes control, that would basically be a repeat of the Taliban and our backing of them was clearly the right thing to do *hur hur*.
There is no peaceful resolution to this, and we are in no situation other than to back Israel, as if we don't noone else will. I dislike them, I think they're being childish, but no more so than the US itself, they are the regions super power and they can get away with what they're doing for now, just like all super powers, they will use force to get what they want.
I think a lot of the UN votes are just pandering to pressure from pro Palestine movements within the EU, ones which I generally see as being overly optimistic to the 'peace' that would bring to the region. I couldn't but notice all the big players abstained from the vote.
I will certainly concede if the idea works, and I will definitely admit it seems on the surface to be the best solution, but honestly I don't see an end to this until Israel gets what it wants and idealism only gets more people killed which I would hope we could all agree, as outsiders to the conflict, is the ultimate goal.
On November 30 2012 21:58 WhiteDog wrote: The sad part is that the overwhelming majority of countries voted for the Palestinians in this matter. In the world, there are basically two nations who think Israel is a respectable country : the US and Israel itself (and some other minor countries who act as the US want them to). It's quite easy to see that even here on TL: people who defend Israel after each bombing event are either Israelis or americans. Israel, one of the most hated state in the world, still thinking everything it does is good and that this hate is just "antisemitism" because you know the US, the major superpower of our time, is backing them every time.
It's also interesting to see how every Israelis posters always bend reality and can't free themselves from their patriotism. At some point you just can't back up your country when it's doing some wild shit for fifty years. At least America came to question itself after the Viet Nam failure or the Iraq failure. From my point of view it's true patriotism to rise and question yourself. Sionist should start reading some work made by jews who suffered the 2nd ww such as Viktor Klemperer, those were great men.
I think you misunderstood what the UN vote was for, as even US and Israel recognize the need for 2 states. it wasnt a X vs Y vote.
I think you misunderstood my point entirely. There were no justifiable ground to deny Palestine's entry in the UN aside from ridiculous claim that it will go against "peace". All in all, it was a pool to see if people were for or against Israel/Palestine, as the entry in the UN will permit Palestine to enter other UN institutions and to seize the International Criminal Court against Israel in futures conflicts.
On November 30 2012 20:54 Goozen wrote: I like how im accused of being a extremist by people who make up over 8,500+ dead civilians. To many people think they know about the conflict when in truth they dont.
As far as I know, no one here is a multi-million dollar media mongrel or a government / special interest group, no one is making up anything, they are all just trying to find sources and figuring shit out on their own. If you have sources, post them. If you have proof that posters are purposefully willfully ignorant or maliciously making things up while knowing the truth, explain why commonly cited sources are wrong.
Was talking about Passion who was pulling numbers without any source. There are fair number of people who post without having a clue or without any sources.
Goozen, my dear, I've been studying this conflict for well over 10 years now. These numbers are common knowledge, as far as I know, and I just didn't find a radical extremist like yourself worth the effort of digging it all up again. Lucky you however, as others have done so. I would say this shows I didn't pull them randomly.
That said, what's going to be the impact of Palestine now being an observer state, and how long will it take before they gain full membership? The main point right now seems to be formal recognition and the somewhat official breaking with the tradition "Palestine is bad" and "Israel is good" paradigm.
afaik, in order to gain full membership status every member of the security council has to vote in favor of it. so full membership wont happen in the near future, hence the US has a veto
On November 30 2012 21:58 WhiteDog wrote: The sad part is that the overwhelming majority of countries voted for the Palestinians in this matter. In the world, there are basically two nations who think Israel is a respectable country : the US and Israel itself (and some other minor countries who act as the US want them to). It's quite easy to see that even here on TL: people who defend Israel after each bombing event are either Israelis or americans. Israel, one of the most hated state in the world, still thinking everything it does is good and that this hate is just "antisemitism" because you know the US, the major superpower of our time, is backing them every time.
It's also interesting to see how every Israelis posters always bend reality and can't free themselves from their patriotism. At some point you just can't back up your country when it's doing some wild shit for fifty years. At least America came to question itself after the Viet Nam failure or the Iraq failure. From my point of view it's true patriotism to rise and question yourself. Sionist should start reading some work made by jews who suffered the 2nd ww such as Viktor Klemperer, those were great men.
Noam Chomsky talks about the importance of the US in this lecture, especially the first 20 minutes. Even though Israel is the second most disliked country in the world (after North Korea), all that matters is the "one vote" of the super power.
On November 30 2012 21:58 WhiteDog wrote: The sad part is that the overwhelming majority of countries voted for the Palestinians in this matter. In the world, there are basically two nations who think Israel is a respectable country : the US and Israel itself (and some other minor countries who act as the US want them to). It's quite easy to see that even here on TL: people who defend Israel after each bombing event are either Israelis or americans. Israel, one of the most hated state in the world, still thinking everything it does is good and that this hate is just "antisemitism" because you know the US, the major superpower of our time, is backing them every time.
It's also interesting to see how every Israelis posters always bend reality and can't free themselves from their patriotism. At some point you just can't back up your country when it's doing some wild shit for fifty years. At least America came to question itself after the Viet Nam failure or the Iraq failure. From my point of view it's true patriotism to rise and question yourself. Sionist should start reading some work made by jews who suffered the 2nd ww such as Viktor Klemperer, those were great men.
Noam Chomsky talks about the importance of the US in this lecture, especially the first 20 minutes. Even though Israel is the second most disliked country in the world (after North Korea), all that matters is the "one vote" of the super power.
Yep I know, already watched this video, but he also says something like the population in the US will slowly change their position toward Israel, just like it did in other situations, and actually if you look at most recent pool on the US consideration toward Israel, it change by 10% over the last years (even if it's still highly in favor of Israel). Not to mention the silent conflict between Obama and Netanyahu. Maybe in 20 or 30 years, the US will change its stance toward Israel, who knows. This would certainly mean the end of Israel as we know it - they will have to change their stance toward Palestine one day or another.
On November 30 2012 21:58 WhiteDog wrote: The sad part is that the overwhelming majority of countries voted for the Palestinians in this matter. In the world, there are basically two nations who think Israel is a respectable country : the US and Israel itself (and some other minor countries who act as the US want them to).
This remark on minor nations reminded me; what do you guys think about the UK's stance in this vote?
Isn't it just an outrage they demanded Palestine would not bring any Israeli's to the ICC? To me it sounds like admitting that the Israeli are the worst war criminals ever, but they're our buddies and you can't sue them. How could anyone demand something like this? How dare Britain put themselves above the law? It's not up to them to decide... this is the whole reason we have an international court system. The judge will decide whether or not these people are guilty.
EPT
