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Stay on topic. I cannot put it more clearly then that. Derailments will be met with consequences. ~Nyovne |
On November 30 2012 12:09 Cirqueenflex wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture ![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pEfVJ93Cwa8/TDjQIyH5mGI/AAAAAAAAGmk/EA9TbmokMRE/s1600/israel-palestine-map.jpg) Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? pretty much the same way this happened: do people care that Germany lost half its land over the past 100 years? Not really. You lose the war, you lose your land, winner takes all (sad enough the loss of land after WW1 was quite a part of the reason for Hitler to get power in the first place). So how did Israel did get that big? They were attacked (or landed a preemptive first strike when there was clearly an attack incoming), won all their wars, and took some land every time. They were even nice enough to give the entire sinaii semi island back to Egypt just to make peace, even though they really could use some more land. If they wouldn't have won their wars, they would be wiped out completely by now.
Those situations are not comparable at all. Germany fought an offensive war, in an attempt to gain "living space" and exterminate several nations and enslave any remnants.
Arabs fought a defensive war, or at least as close as it gets to a defensive war in this situation.
You want a fitting analogy? The situation is much closer to the partition of Poland. Would Poland be at fault if it waged war against its oppressors? Would it no longer be entitled to its territory had it lost decisively like Arab nations did? Of course not...
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Partitions_of_Poland.png/765px-Partitions_of_Poland.png)
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On November 30 2012 18:53 Cute_Fluff wrote:
open ur eyes, all Europe is full of muslims and arabs - this shit is coming fast to you all - a private Palestine in every EU country - good luck dealing with that, then come cry to us for advice.
Yeah, arab immigration is definitely the same as brittain randomly giving a peice of a country to israel and them then proceeding to take over all of it.
Are you joking? IF it would happen that we would get "a private Palestine" in a EU country, it would actually be far more similar to what Israel is: A private jewish state in a Palestinian country.
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On November 30 2012 19:45 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 12:09 Cirqueenflex wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? pretty much the same way this happened: do people care that Germany lost half its land over the past 100 years? Not really. You lose the war, you lose your land, winner takes all (sad enough the loss of land after WW1 was quite a part of the reason for Hitler to get power in the first place). So how did Israel did get that big? They were attacked (or landed a preemptive first strike when there was clearly an attack incoming), won all their wars, and took some land every time. They were even nice enough to give the entire sinaii semi island back to Egypt just to make peace, even though they really could use some more land. If they wouldn't have won their wars, they would be wiped out completely by now. Those situations are not comparable at all. Germany fought an offensive war, in an attempt to gain "living space" and exterminate several nations and enslave any remnants. Arabs fought a defensive war, or at least as close as it gets to a defensive war in this situation. You want a fitting analogy? The situation is much closer to the partition of Poland. Would Poland be at fault if it waged war against its oppressors? Would it no longer be entitled to its territory had it lost decisively like Arab nations did? Of course not...
I really don't understand people trying to argue out which side is the one that is entitled to the land. When is it going to sink in that it doesn't even matter who's entitled to the land?
What do you people think this will achieve? Really?
Like, do you think there is any argumen that will make all the Israelis go "Ooooooh, now I get it" after which they disband the state of Israel?
Is there any argument that will make the Palestinians do the same?
We all know that isn't going to happen. Which side is right doesn't matter, because even if a side is proven wrong, it's not going to abandon it's cause.
If this is the route you take, where one side is right, and the other is wrong, then you need to acknowledge that perpetual war will be the result.
Doing justice, for either side, means perpetual warfare.
The solution is meeting in the middle, slowly, step by step, building up trust.
This argument over whom is entitled to the land is both pointless, and ultimately dangerous and destructive.
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U can't dicuss this problem with israeli people anymore. They ve created their own reality. They don't believe in such things as equal rights. They ve taken land, because they are special people and common sense doesnt fit on special people.
This kind of nationalism, racism and hatred cant be tolerated. Its really time to set an embargo on israelian products.
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the problem is zalz. israel and palestin proove one thing in the modern world. The idea of nations, and why we need them is a complete clusterfuck.
I mean what common sense did create them?
Option A is that there are no rules. Nations live in anarchy towards themself. Creating that statement, that superior states are allways allowed to rule over smaller ones. So offensive wars are legitimate and therefor punishing the loser in any way is justiciable. States can create alliances. That will lead to an pre WW1 style of colonalization where some states divide the world into their hands. (British Empire etc.)
Option B is that there is a right to cultures to rule over land because of historic reasons. But then again this is bullshit too. One space of land could be contained by so many cultures over time, that we would need to set a specific time date to justify on. Obvious this solution is dumb.
So here we are, living in a divided world. Without any reasonable set of rules on how we have to live together, YET there are those people claiming THEY ARE RIGHT. And i tell everyone, there are only two sides of this medal. Everyone is creating his own set of rules, makes us live in a natural state of war. Or we may abandon this shit, finding a way to live together in one world.
Fuck borders and boundaries. Created by people with might to give ur mind a box to live in. (The smaller, the better for them)
User was warned for this post
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On November 30 2012 19:45 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 12:09 Cirqueenflex wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? pretty much the same way this happened: do people care that Germany lost half its land over the past 100 years? Not really. You lose the war, you lose your land, winner takes all (sad enough the loss of land after WW1 was quite a part of the reason for Hitler to get power in the first place). So how did Israel did get that big? They were attacked (or landed a preemptive first strike when there was clearly an attack incoming), won all their wars, and took some land every time. They were even nice enough to give the entire sinaii semi island back to Egypt just to make peace, even though they really could use some more land. If they wouldn't have won their wars, they would be wiped out completely by now. Those situations are not comparable at all. Germany fought an offensive war, in an attempt to gain "living space" and exterminate several nations and enslave any remnants. Arabs fought a defensive war, or at least as close as it gets to a defensive war in this situation. You want a fitting analogy? The situation is much closer to the partition of Poland. Would Poland be at fault if it waged war against its oppressors? Would it no longer be entitled to its territory had it lost decisively like Arab nations did? Of course not...
Also the land taken from Germany at the ends of both world wars wasn't principally germanic land. It was mostly land colonised and taken from the Slavs over the past 600 years. Sort of restoring Polish borders to those prior to the rise of Prussia - which itself was created from carving land out of Pruthenians, Ruthenians etc.
So the end of WW2 really saw the reversal of 600 years of the Drang Nach Osten. Mecklenburg, Pommerania excepted of course. Personally however, stuff like France annexing Strasbourg makes little sense to me. Also Koenigsberg --> Russia smacks of realpolitik too.
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On November 30 2012 20:02 Cillas wrote:
U can't dicuss this problem with Palestinian people anymore. They ve created their own reality. They don't believe in such things as equal rights. They use terror and teach hatred, because they are special people and common sense doesnt fit on special people.
This kind of nationalism, racism and hatred cant be tolerated. Its really time to set an embargo on the Palestinians.
Fixed for you
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On November 30 2012 20:02 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 19:45 maybenexttime wrote:On November 30 2012 12:09 Cirqueenflex wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? pretty much the same way this happened: do people care that Germany lost half its land over the past 100 years? Not really. You lose the war, you lose your land, winner takes all (sad enough the loss of land after WW1 was quite a part of the reason for Hitler to get power in the first place). So how did Israel did get that big? They were attacked (or landed a preemptive first strike when there was clearly an attack incoming), won all their wars, and took some land every time. They were even nice enough to give the entire sinaii semi island back to Egypt just to make peace, even though they really could use some more land. If they wouldn't have won their wars, they would be wiped out completely by now. Those situations are not comparable at all. Germany fought an offensive war, in an attempt to gain "living space" and exterminate several nations and enslave any remnants. Arabs fought a defensive war, or at least as close as it gets to a defensive war in this situation. You want a fitting analogy? The situation is much closer to the partition of Poland. Would Poland be at fault if it waged war against its oppressors? Would it no longer be entitled to its territory had it lost decisively like Arab nations did? Of course not... I really don't understand people trying to argue out which side is the one that is entitled to the land. When is it going to sink in that it doesn't even matter who's entitled to the land? What do you people think this will achieve? Really? Like, do you think there is any argumen that will make all the Israelis go "Ooooooh, now I get it" after which they disband the state of Israel? Is there any argument that will make the Palestinians do the same? We all know that isn't going to happen. Which side is right doesn't matter, because even if a side is proven wrong, it's not going to abandon it's cause. If this is the route you take, where one side is right, and the other is wrong, then you need to acknowledge that perpetual war will be the result. Doing justice, for either side, means perpetual warfare. The solution is meeting in the middle, slowly, step by step, building up trust. This argument over whom is entitled to the land is both pointless, and ultimately dangerous and destructive.
No it's not. Up until recently it was systematically and automatically assumed by the western world that Israel was entitled to their behaviour, and the land. The Palestines had no rights, their cause was not respected in anyway.
Until it's made clear that they've been horribly mistreated since the start, had their land stolen and their children murdered, no progress can be made.
Of course everyone knows the Israeli's will never leave, even though this is the only fair, and to be honest, sensible solution (tensions between the west and the Islamic world will persist for ages thanks to Israel).
So yea, to have fair negotiations, you do need a clear view on and analysis of the situation - even if this won't result in an absolutely fair solution.
On November 30 2012 20:05 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 20:02 Cillas wrote:
U can't dicuss this problem with Palestinian people anymore. They ve created their own reality. They don't believe in such things as equal rights. They use terror and teach hatred, because they are special people and common sense doesnt fit on special people.
This kind of nationalism, racism and hatred cant be tolerated. Its really time to set an embargo on the Palestinians. Fixed for you
Damn, you debate with an iron tongue! Arguments stronger than steel! But you said you would leave, please do.
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On November 30 2012 19:40 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 19:32 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:27 Passion wrote:On November 30 2012 19:18 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:06 Silvanel wrote:On November 30 2012 18:53 Cute_Fluff wrote:
NONE OF U IS JEWISH OR LIVES IN ISRAEL!
well i DO! and this is pure bullshit and incoherence, do your research on your own, look up what happened here from the start,
none of u remember that after israel was declared in the UN, just as Palestine was today - ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED BY ALL SURROUNDING ARAB COUNTRIES!
pls, stfu all of u!
and just a week ago - who BOMBED ISRAEL ?!?!? PALESTINE! u guys are dumb i live under the bombs! THEY ARE TERRORISTS LEAD BY TERRORISTS - AND U BRACE THEM!
and now u take them with open arms to the UN and all other orgs, so dumb
sure, let them in the NUCLEAR AGENCY !!! lets have IRAN 2!
open ur eyes, all Europe is full of muslims and arabs - this shit is coming fast to you all - a private Palestine in every EU country - good luck dealing with that, then come cry to us for advice.
damn peace-hippies! go gay up somewhere else!
concerned Israeli. Those peacefull people of Isreal, they would never resort to terrorist attack, terroism is bad? Right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombingOnly tip of the iceberg. Both sides did use violence and terrosim, the stronger won, the only "right" Jewish people have to those lands is a right of being stronger. I can respect that, but dont pretend You are better than Palestinians, Your are not. Also another nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks So comparing 65 years ago to actions today is fine, right? also people seem to ignore this form your link: "American author Thurston Clarke's analysis of the bombing gave timings for calls and for the explosion which he says took place at 12:37. He said that as part of the Irgun plan, a sixteen year old recruit, Adina Hay (alias Tehia), was to make three warning calls before the attack. At 12:22 the first call was made, in both Hebrew and English, to a telephone operator on the hotel's switchboard (the Secretariat and the military each had their own, separate, telephone exchanges). It was ignored.[4] At 12:27, the second warning call was made to the French Consulate adjacent to the hotel to the north-east. This second call was taken seriously and staff went through the building opening windows and closing curtains to lessen the impact of the blast. At 12:31 a third and final warning call to the Palestine Post newspaper was made. The telephone operator called the Palestine Police CID to report the message. She then called the hotel switchboard. The hotel operator reported the threat to one of the hotel managers. This warning resulted in the discovery of the milk churns in the basement, but by then it was too late.[4]" Their intent was to destroy HQ of the Britisher mandate, if they wanted to kill people why warn them before? Then again you compare attacking the HQ 65 years ago to sending rockets at civilians today. More OT this observer-state changes nothing, Abbas (Abu Mazen) fears his position as more corruption allegation have surfaced recently and he has hit a new low in popular support. The only practical thing the PA can gain from this is use of the ICC and that would be political suicide. Lol... fabulous excuse. Also have one for the ~10k Palestinian civilians that Israeli soldiers have murdered in the past 25 years? Yep, that's not 65 years ago. Edit: for comparison, Palestinians haven't even reached 2000 in the same period. So yea, what ever period we take to compare, you're the bad ones. Show proof that 10k are civilians, oh wait you cant! Also this isnt a numbers game and is not relevant to the topic so im done discussing it in this thread. Right on. Let's not talk about the problem but just shoot some Arabs - Israeli style.
Still waiting for that proof of 10k civilians in the last 25 years. Until you provide it, nothing you say will or should be taken seriously as those who randomly shout without proof add nothing to a discussion.
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I dont agree, You cant generalize like that, i am confident Isreal is full of people that are reasonable and willing to talk peace. They are just minority, or perhaps silent majority. Nontheless there is much more obstacles in the way of peace than "the will of people of Isreal".
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On November 30 2012 20:08 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 19:40 Passion wrote:On November 30 2012 19:32 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:27 Passion wrote:On November 30 2012 19:18 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:06 Silvanel wrote:On November 30 2012 18:53 Cute_Fluff wrote:
NONE OF U IS JEWISH OR LIVES IN ISRAEL!
well i DO! and this is pure bullshit and incoherence, do your research on your own, look up what happened here from the start,
none of u remember that after israel was declared in the UN, just as Palestine was today - ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED BY ALL SURROUNDING ARAB COUNTRIES!
pls, stfu all of u!
and just a week ago - who BOMBED ISRAEL ?!?!? PALESTINE! u guys are dumb i live under the bombs! THEY ARE TERRORISTS LEAD BY TERRORISTS - AND U BRACE THEM!
and now u take them with open arms to the UN and all other orgs, so dumb
sure, let them in the NUCLEAR AGENCY !!! lets have IRAN 2!
open ur eyes, all Europe is full of muslims and arabs - this shit is coming fast to you all - a private Palestine in every EU country - good luck dealing with that, then come cry to us for advice.
damn peace-hippies! go gay up somewhere else!
concerned Israeli. Those peacefull people of Isreal, they would never resort to terrorist attack, terroism is bad? Right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombingOnly tip of the iceberg. Both sides did use violence and terrosim, the stronger won, the only "right" Jewish people have to those lands is a right of being stronger. I can respect that, but dont pretend You are better than Palestinians, Your are not. Also another nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks So comparing 65 years ago to actions today is fine, right? also people seem to ignore this form your link: "American author Thurston Clarke's analysis of the bombing gave timings for calls and for the explosion which he says took place at 12:37. He said that as part of the Irgun plan, a sixteen year old recruit, Adina Hay (alias Tehia), was to make three warning calls before the attack. At 12:22 the first call was made, in both Hebrew and English, to a telephone operator on the hotel's switchboard (the Secretariat and the military each had their own, separate, telephone exchanges). It was ignored.[4] At 12:27, the second warning call was made to the French Consulate adjacent to the hotel to the north-east. This second call was taken seriously and staff went through the building opening windows and closing curtains to lessen the impact of the blast. At 12:31 a third and final warning call to the Palestine Post newspaper was made. The telephone operator called the Palestine Police CID to report the message. She then called the hotel switchboard. The hotel operator reported the threat to one of the hotel managers. This warning resulted in the discovery of the milk churns in the basement, but by then it was too late.[4]" Their intent was to destroy HQ of the Britisher mandate, if they wanted to kill people why warn them before? Then again you compare attacking the HQ 65 years ago to sending rockets at civilians today. More OT this observer-state changes nothing, Abbas (Abu Mazen) fears his position as more corruption allegation have surfaced recently and he has hit a new low in popular support. The only practical thing the PA can gain from this is use of the ICC and that would be political suicide. Lol... fabulous excuse. Also have one for the ~10k Palestinian civilians that Israeli soldiers have murdered in the past 25 years? Yep, that's not 65 years ago. Edit: for comparison, Palestinians haven't even reached 2000 in the same period. So yea, what ever period we take to compare, you're the bad ones. Show proof that 10k are civilians, oh wait you cant! Also this isnt a numbers game and is not relevant to the topic so im done discussing it in this thread. Right on. Let's not talk about the problem but just shoot some Arabs - Israeli style. Still waiting for that proof of 10k civilians in the last 25 years. Until you provide it, nothing you say will or should be taken seriously as those who randomly shout without proof add nothing to a discussion.
Pff nevermind. It's useless to talk to an extremist like yourself.
Just use google and you'll find a million sources stating at least that number. I can tell you, most people will take it seriously as they know these statistics are correct. It's pretty much common knowledge. In your previous posts you've shown how much random crap comes out of your mouth, so please... please...
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On November 30 2012 19:45 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 12:09 Cirqueenflex wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? pretty much the same way this happened: do people care that Germany lost half its land over the past 100 years? Not really. You lose the war, you lose your land, winner takes all (sad enough the loss of land after WW1 was quite a part of the reason for Hitler to get power in the first place). So how did Israel did get that big? They were attacked (or landed a preemptive first strike when there was clearly an attack incoming), won all their wars, and took some land every time. They were even nice enough to give the entire sinaii semi island back to Egypt just to make peace, even though they really could use some more land. If they wouldn't have won their wars, they would be wiped out completely by now. Those situations are not comparable at all. Germany fought an offensive war, in an attempt to gain "living space" and exterminate several nations and enslave any remnants. Arabs fought a defensive war, or at least as close as it gets to a defensive war in this situation. You want a fitting analogy? The situation is much closer to the partition of Poland. Would Poland be at fault if it waged war against its oppressors? Would it no longer be entitled to its territory had it lost decisively like Arab nations did? Of course not...
What is "Germany" anyway ?
150 years ago, they were Prussia and Austria, and in the end Prussia won and conquered the lands.
The main issue with Israel politics, is that it's now way harder to achieve these kind of things.
But from an Israeli perspective, there's no alternative but to conquer Arab lands.
If you don't move onward, you go backward... just like Europe did after puting an end to the colonization. Now it's us being colonized and ethnically replaced in our own homeland.
You don't govern with warm fuzzy feelings, no nation has ever achieved greatness with that. You can debate whether Israel is legitimate and should or not survive as a Jewish state, but in case you think it does, there's no serious alternatives to their current politics.
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On November 30 2012 20:13 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 19:45 maybenexttime wrote:On November 30 2012 12:09 Cirqueenflex wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? pretty much the same way this happened: do people care that Germany lost half its land over the past 100 years? Not really. You lose the war, you lose your land, winner takes all (sad enough the loss of land after WW1 was quite a part of the reason for Hitler to get power in the first place). So how did Israel did get that big? They were attacked (or landed a preemptive first strike when there was clearly an attack incoming), won all their wars, and took some land every time. They were even nice enough to give the entire sinaii semi island back to Egypt just to make peace, even though they really could use some more land. If they wouldn't have won their wars, they would be wiped out completely by now. Those situations are not comparable at all. Germany fought an offensive war, in an attempt to gain "living space" and exterminate several nations and enslave any remnants. Arabs fought a defensive war, or at least as close as it gets to a defensive war in this situation. You want a fitting analogy? The situation is much closer to the partition of Poland. Would Poland be at fault if it waged war against its oppressors? Would it no longer be entitled to its territory had it lost decisively like Arab nations did? Of course not... What is "Germany" anyway ? 150 years ago, they were Prussia and Austria, and in the end Prussia won and conquered the lands. The main issue with Israel politics, is that it's now way harder to achieve these kind of things. But from an Israeli perspective, there's no alternative but to conquer Arab lands. If you don't move onward, you go backward... just like Europe did after puting an end to the colonization. Now it's us being colonized and ethnically replaced in our own homeland. You don't govern with warm fuzzy feelings, no nation has ever achieved greatness with that. You can debate whether Israel is legitimate and should or not survive as a Jewish state, but in case you think it does, there's no serious alternatives to their current politics.
But we still assume Israeli statehood, we still allow Israel to vote in the UN, we still allow Israel rights of self determination. Do you see the problem? Even the two states solution assumes that Palestine will at least have its own state rights. Pro Palestine commentators still hold the view point that we assume Israel's statehood even though the method of gaining or maintaining the territory may be illegitimate, and that any progress has to result from dialogue or actions with the Israeli state government.
Denying Palestinian statehood is akin to the USA's diplomatic stance with Cuba, there is literally no way for the situation to resolve itself because the US refuses to even engage in diplomatic relations. You can't have relationships with a government that doesn't exist, if we don't recognize Palestinian statehood or Palestinian governance then how do you expect this situation to ever resolve itself except by eventual elimination of one party?
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On November 30 2012 20:08 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 19:40 Passion wrote:On November 30 2012 19:32 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:27 Passion wrote:On November 30 2012 19:18 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:06 Silvanel wrote:On November 30 2012 18:53 Cute_Fluff wrote:
NONE OF U IS JEWISH OR LIVES IN ISRAEL!
well i DO! and this is pure bullshit and incoherence, do your research on your own, look up what happened here from the start,
none of u remember that after israel was declared in the UN, just as Palestine was today - ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED BY ALL SURROUNDING ARAB COUNTRIES!
pls, stfu all of u!
and just a week ago - who BOMBED ISRAEL ?!?!? PALESTINE! u guys are dumb i live under the bombs! THEY ARE TERRORISTS LEAD BY TERRORISTS - AND U BRACE THEM!
and now u take them with open arms to the UN and all other orgs, so dumb
sure, let them in the NUCLEAR AGENCY !!! lets have IRAN 2!
open ur eyes, all Europe is full of muslims and arabs - this shit is coming fast to you all - a private Palestine in every EU country - good luck dealing with that, then come cry to us for advice.
damn peace-hippies! go gay up somewhere else!
concerned Israeli. Those peacefull people of Isreal, they would never resort to terrorist attack, terroism is bad? Right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombingOnly tip of the iceberg. Both sides did use violence and terrosim, the stronger won, the only "right" Jewish people have to those lands is a right of being stronger. I can respect that, but dont pretend You are better than Palestinians, Your are not. Also another nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks So comparing 65 years ago to actions today is fine, right? also people seem to ignore this form your link: "American author Thurston Clarke's analysis of the bombing gave timings for calls and for the explosion which he says took place at 12:37. He said that as part of the Irgun plan, a sixteen year old recruit, Adina Hay (alias Tehia), was to make three warning calls before the attack. At 12:22 the first call was made, in both Hebrew and English, to a telephone operator on the hotel's switchboard (the Secretariat and the military each had their own, separate, telephone exchanges). It was ignored.[4] At 12:27, the second warning call was made to the French Consulate adjacent to the hotel to the north-east. This second call was taken seriously and staff went through the building opening windows and closing curtains to lessen the impact of the blast. At 12:31 a third and final warning call to the Palestine Post newspaper was made. The telephone operator called the Palestine Police CID to report the message. She then called the hotel switchboard. The hotel operator reported the threat to one of the hotel managers. This warning resulted in the discovery of the milk churns in the basement, but by then it was too late.[4]" Their intent was to destroy HQ of the Britisher mandate, if they wanted to kill people why warn them before? Then again you compare attacking the HQ 65 years ago to sending rockets at civilians today. More OT this observer-state changes nothing, Abbas (Abu Mazen) fears his position as more corruption allegation have surfaced recently and he has hit a new low in popular support. The only practical thing the PA can gain from this is use of the ICC and that would be political suicide. Lol... fabulous excuse. Also have one for the ~10k Palestinian civilians that Israeli soldiers have murdered in the past 25 years? Yep, that's not 65 years ago. Edit: for comparison, Palestinians haven't even reached 2000 in the same period. So yea, what ever period we take to compare, you're the bad ones. Show proof that 10k are civilians, oh wait you cant! Also this isnt a numbers game and is not relevant to the topic so im done discussing it in this thread. Right on. Let's not talk about the problem but just shoot some Arabs - Israeli style. Still waiting for that proof of 10k civilians in the last 25 years. Until you provide it, nothing you say will or should be taken seriously as those who randomly shout without proof add nothing to a discussion.
Around 1100 during 1987-1993 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada
Around 6500+50 during 2000-2012 http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp
It is suprisingly hard to find statiscs for 1993-2000. I would assume its pretty low, meaning ~100/year, but i can be wrong.
Either way, i think its slightly below 10 000 in last 25years. No reason to be cherry about it though.
Edit i have found it:
1367+115 during 1987-2000 http://www.btselem.org/statistics/first_intifada_tables
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On November 30 2012 20:13 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 19:45 maybenexttime wrote:On November 30 2012 12:09 Cirqueenflex wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? pretty much the same way this happened: do people care that Germany lost half its land over the past 100 years? Not really. You lose the war, you lose your land, winner takes all (sad enough the loss of land after WW1 was quite a part of the reason for Hitler to get power in the first place). So how did Israel did get that big? They were attacked (or landed a preemptive first strike when there was clearly an attack incoming), won all their wars, and took some land every time. They were even nice enough to give the entire sinaii semi island back to Egypt just to make peace, even though they really could use some more land. If they wouldn't have won their wars, they would be wiped out completely by now. Those situations are not comparable at all. Germany fought an offensive war, in an attempt to gain "living space" and exterminate several nations and enslave any remnants. Arabs fought a defensive war, or at least as close as it gets to a defensive war in this situation. You want a fitting analogy? The situation is much closer to the partition of Poland. Would Poland be at fault if it waged war against its oppressors? Would it no longer be entitled to its territory had it lost decisively like Arab nations did? Of course not... What is "Germany" anyway ? 150 years ago, they were Prussia and Austria, and in the end Prussia won and conquered the lands. The main issue with Israel politics, is that it's now way harder to achieve these kind of things. But from an Israeli perspective, there's no alternative but to conquer Arab lands. If you don't move onward, you go backward... just like Europe did after puting an end to the colonization. Now it's us being colonized and ethnically replaced in our own homeland. You don't govern with warm fuzzy feelings, no nation has ever achieved greatness with that. You can debate whether Israel is legitimate and should or not survive as a Jewish state, but in case you think it does, there's no serious alternatives to their current politics.
Wow... I just notice what you wrote there. We're being colonised in our own homeland? If comparable with anything from colonial times, we're now shipping the slaves to our own lands, to take care of the labour intense jobs. These people are mostly part of the lowest class of society, have the least power of anyone. They do the jobs we don't want to. Much like plantation slaves...
The world isn't so black and white.
Yes, if you'd stick to right and wrong, Israel simply doesn't have the right to exist and ought to be punished for its behaviour. But I figure we all know that's not realistic to expect. However, that doesn't mean the only other option is the opposite; the overly aggressive Israeli state we know today.
Admittedly, the further they continue on this road, the harder a moderate solution will be.
On November 30 2012 20:22 Silvanel wrote:
9132
Thanks 
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On November 30 2012 20:22 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 20:08 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:40 Passion wrote:On November 30 2012 19:32 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:27 Passion wrote:On November 30 2012 19:18 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:06 Silvanel wrote:On November 30 2012 18:53 Cute_Fluff wrote:
NONE OF U IS JEWISH OR LIVES IN ISRAEL!
well i DO! and this is pure bullshit and incoherence, do your research on your own, look up what happened here from the start,
none of u remember that after israel was declared in the UN, just as Palestine was today - ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED BY ALL SURROUNDING ARAB COUNTRIES!
pls, stfu all of u!
and just a week ago - who BOMBED ISRAEL ?!?!? PALESTINE! u guys are dumb i live under the bombs! THEY ARE TERRORISTS LEAD BY TERRORISTS - AND U BRACE THEM!
and now u take them with open arms to the UN and all other orgs, so dumb
sure, let them in the NUCLEAR AGENCY !!! lets have IRAN 2!
open ur eyes, all Europe is full of muslims and arabs - this shit is coming fast to you all - a private Palestine in every EU country - good luck dealing with that, then come cry to us for advice.
damn peace-hippies! go gay up somewhere else!
concerned Israeli. Those peacefull people of Isreal, they would never resort to terrorist attack, terroism is bad? Right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombingOnly tip of the iceberg. Both sides did use violence and terrosim, the stronger won, the only "right" Jewish people have to those lands is a right of being stronger. I can respect that, but dont pretend You are better than Palestinians, Your are not. Also another nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks So comparing 65 years ago to actions today is fine, right? also people seem to ignore this form your link: "American author Thurston Clarke's analysis of the bombing gave timings for calls and for the explosion which he says took place at 12:37. He said that as part of the Irgun plan, a sixteen year old recruit, Adina Hay (alias Tehia), was to make three warning calls before the attack. At 12:22 the first call was made, in both Hebrew and English, to a telephone operator on the hotel's switchboard (the Secretariat and the military each had their own, separate, telephone exchanges). It was ignored.[4] At 12:27, the second warning call was made to the French Consulate adjacent to the hotel to the north-east. This second call was taken seriously and staff went through the building opening windows and closing curtains to lessen the impact of the blast. At 12:31 a third and final warning call to the Palestine Post newspaper was made. The telephone operator called the Palestine Police CID to report the message. She then called the hotel switchboard. The hotel operator reported the threat to one of the hotel managers. This warning resulted in the discovery of the milk churns in the basement, but by then it was too late.[4]" Their intent was to destroy HQ of the Britisher mandate, if they wanted to kill people why warn them before? Then again you compare attacking the HQ 65 years ago to sending rockets at civilians today. More OT this observer-state changes nothing, Abbas (Abu Mazen) fears his position as more corruption allegation have surfaced recently and he has hit a new low in popular support. The only practical thing the PA can gain from this is use of the ICC and that would be political suicide. Lol... fabulous excuse. Also have one for the ~10k Palestinian civilians that Israeli soldiers have murdered in the past 25 years? Yep, that's not 65 years ago. Edit: for comparison, Palestinians haven't even reached 2000 in the same period. So yea, what ever period we take to compare, you're the bad ones. Show proof that 10k are civilians, oh wait you cant! Also this isnt a numbers game and is not relevant to the topic so im done discussing it in this thread. Right on. Let's not talk about the problem but just shoot some Arabs - Israeli style. Still waiting for that proof of 10k civilians in the last 25 years. Until you provide it, nothing you say will or should be taken seriously as those who randomly shout without proof add nothing to a discussion. Around 1100 during 1987-1993 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_IntifadaAround 6500+50 during 2000-2012 http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.aspIt is suprisingly hard to find statiscs for 1993-2000. I would assume its pretty low, meaning ~100/year, but i can be wrong. Either way, i think its slightly below 10 000 in last 25years. No reason to be cherry about it though. Edit i have found it: 1367+115 during 1987-2000 http://www.btselem.org/statistics/first_intifada_tables
Should be noted that btselem are often accused of having too broad of a definition of what consitutes a civilian, apparently they included palestinians who attacked israeli during the second infatada. It's always a matter of definition.
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On November 30 2012 20:17 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 20:13 SiroKO wrote:On November 30 2012 19:45 maybenexttime wrote:On November 30 2012 12:09 Cirqueenflex wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? pretty much the same way this happened: do people care that Germany lost half its land over the past 100 years? Not really. You lose the war, you lose your land, winner takes all (sad enough the loss of land after WW1 was quite a part of the reason for Hitler to get power in the first place). So how did Israel did get that big? They were attacked (or landed a preemptive first strike when there was clearly an attack incoming), won all their wars, and took some land every time. They were even nice enough to give the entire sinaii semi island back to Egypt just to make peace, even though they really could use some more land. If they wouldn't have won their wars, they would be wiped out completely by now. Those situations are not comparable at all. Germany fought an offensive war, in an attempt to gain "living space" and exterminate several nations and enslave any remnants. Arabs fought a defensive war, or at least as close as it gets to a defensive war in this situation. You want a fitting analogy? The situation is much closer to the partition of Poland. Would Poland be at fault if it waged war against its oppressors? Would it no longer be entitled to its territory had it lost decisively like Arab nations did? Of course not... What is "Germany" anyway ? 150 years ago, they were Prussia and Austria, and in the end Prussia won and conquered the lands. The main issue with Israel politics, is that it's now way harder to achieve these kind of things. But from an Israeli perspective, there's no alternative but to conquer Arab lands. If you don't move onward, you go backward... just like Europe did after puting an end to the colonization. Now it's us being colonized and ethnically replaced in our own homeland. You don't govern with warm fuzzy feelings, no nation has ever achieved greatness with that. You can debate whether Israel is legitimate and should or not survive as a Jewish state, but in case you think it does, there's no serious alternatives to their current politics. But we still assume Israeli statehood, we still allow Israel to vote in the UN, we still allow Israel rights of self determination. Do you see the problem? Even the two states solution assumes that Palestine will at least have its own state rights. Pro Palestine commentators still hold the view point that we assume Israel's statehood even though the method of gaining or maintaining the territory may be illegitimate, and that any progress has to result from dialogue or actions with the Israeli state government. Denying Palestinian statehood is akin to the USA's diplomatic stance with Cuba, there is literally no way for the situation to resolve itself because the US refuses to even engage in diplomatic relations. You can't have relationships with a government that doesn't exist, if we don't recognize Palestinian statehood or Palestinian governance then how do you expect this situation to ever resolve itself except by eventual elimination of one party?
This is my point, I believe that Israel has no choice but to eliminate this party (and potentially more) or getting supplanted, whether it is demographically or economically, or both, just like Europeans now.
I don't support nor condemn these actions, but if Israel wants to survive as an independant Jewish state, I believe there's no alternative to their politics and lies.
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On November 30 2012 20:02 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 19:45 maybenexttime wrote:On November 30 2012 12:09 Cirqueenflex wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? pretty much the same way this happened: do people care that Germany lost half its land over the past 100 years? Not really. You lose the war, you lose your land, winner takes all (sad enough the loss of land after WW1 was quite a part of the reason for Hitler to get power in the first place). So how did Israel did get that big? They were attacked (or landed a preemptive first strike when there was clearly an attack incoming), won all their wars, and took some land every time. They were even nice enough to give the entire sinaii semi island back to Egypt just to make peace, even though they really could use some more land. If they wouldn't have won their wars, they would be wiped out completely by now. Those situations are not comparable at all. Germany fought an offensive war, in an attempt to gain "living space" and exterminate several nations and enslave any remnants. Arabs fought a defensive war, or at least as close as it gets to a defensive war in this situation. You want a fitting analogy? The situation is much closer to the partition of Poland. Would Poland be at fault if it waged war against its oppressors? Would it no longer be entitled to its territory had it lost decisively like Arab nations did? Of course not... I really don't understand people trying to argue out which side is the one that is entitled to the land. When is it going to sink in that it doesn't even matter who's entitled to the land? What do you people think this will achieve? Really? Like, do you think there is any argumen that will make all the Israelis go "Ooooooh, now I get it" after which they disband the state of Israel? Is there any argument that will make the Palestinians do the same? We all know that isn't going to happen. Which side is right doesn't matter, because even if a side is proven wrong, it's not going to abandon it's cause. If this is the route you take, where one side is right, and the other is wrong, then you need to acknowledge that perpetual war will be the result. Doing justice, for either side, means perpetual warfare. The solution is meeting in the middle, slowly, step by step, building up trust. This argument over whom is entitled to the land is both pointless, and ultimately dangerous and destructive.
It does matter. It took over one hundred years and two world wars to do that, but Poland regained its independence. I believe Palestine will too, eventually.
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On November 30 2012 20:29 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 20:22 Silvanel wrote:On November 30 2012 20:08 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:40 Passion wrote:On November 30 2012 19:32 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:27 Passion wrote:On November 30 2012 19:18 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:06 Silvanel wrote:On November 30 2012 18:53 Cute_Fluff wrote:
NONE OF U IS JEWISH OR LIVES IN ISRAEL!
well i DO! and this is pure bullshit and incoherence, do your research on your own, look up what happened here from the start,
none of u remember that after israel was declared in the UN, just as Palestine was today - ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED BY ALL SURROUNDING ARAB COUNTRIES!
pls, stfu all of u!
and just a week ago - who BOMBED ISRAEL ?!?!? PALESTINE! u guys are dumb i live under the bombs! THEY ARE TERRORISTS LEAD BY TERRORISTS - AND U BRACE THEM!
and now u take them with open arms to the UN and all other orgs, so dumb
sure, let them in the NUCLEAR AGENCY !!! lets have IRAN 2!
open ur eyes, all Europe is full of muslims and arabs - this shit is coming fast to you all - a private Palestine in every EU country - good luck dealing with that, then come cry to us for advice.
damn peace-hippies! go gay up somewhere else!
concerned Israeli. Those peacefull people of Isreal, they would never resort to terrorist attack, terroism is bad? Right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombingOnly tip of the iceberg. Both sides did use violence and terrosim, the stronger won, the only "right" Jewish people have to those lands is a right of being stronger. I can respect that, but dont pretend You are better than Palestinians, Your are not. Also another nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks So comparing 65 years ago to actions today is fine, right? also people seem to ignore this form your link: "American author Thurston Clarke's analysis of the bombing gave timings for calls and for the explosion which he says took place at 12:37. He said that as part of the Irgun plan, a sixteen year old recruit, Adina Hay (alias Tehia), was to make three warning calls before the attack. At 12:22 the first call was made, in both Hebrew and English, to a telephone operator on the hotel's switchboard (the Secretariat and the military each had their own, separate, telephone exchanges). It was ignored.[4] At 12:27, the second warning call was made to the French Consulate adjacent to the hotel to the north-east. This second call was taken seriously and staff went through the building opening windows and closing curtains to lessen the impact of the blast. At 12:31 a third and final warning call to the Palestine Post newspaper was made. The telephone operator called the Palestine Police CID to report the message. She then called the hotel switchboard. The hotel operator reported the threat to one of the hotel managers. This warning resulted in the discovery of the milk churns in the basement, but by then it was too late.[4]" Their intent was to destroy HQ of the Britisher mandate, if they wanted to kill people why warn them before? Then again you compare attacking the HQ 65 years ago to sending rockets at civilians today. More OT this observer-state changes nothing, Abbas (Abu Mazen) fears his position as more corruption allegation have surfaced recently and he has hit a new low in popular support. The only practical thing the PA can gain from this is use of the ICC and that would be political suicide. Lol... fabulous excuse. Also have one for the ~10k Palestinian civilians that Israeli soldiers have murdered in the past 25 years? Yep, that's not 65 years ago. Edit: for comparison, Palestinians haven't even reached 2000 in the same period. So yea, what ever period we take to compare, you're the bad ones. Show proof that 10k are civilians, oh wait you cant! Also this isnt a numbers game and is not relevant to the topic so im done discussing it in this thread. Right on. Let's not talk about the problem but just shoot some Arabs - Israeli style. Still waiting for that proof of 10k civilians in the last 25 years. Until you provide it, nothing you say will or should be taken seriously as those who randomly shout without proof add nothing to a discussion. Around 1100 during 1987-1993 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_IntifadaAround 6500+50 during 2000-2012 http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.aspIt is suprisingly hard to find statiscs for 1993-2000. I would assume its pretty low, meaning ~100/year, but i can be wrong. Either way, i think its slightly below 10 000 in last 25years. No reason to be cherry about it though. Edit i have found it: 1367+115 during 1987-2000 http://www.btselem.org/statistics/first_intifada_tables Should be noted that btselem are often accused of having too broad of a definition of what consitutes a civilian, apparently they included palestinians who attacked israeli during the second infatada. It's always a matter of definition.
These are Palestinians civilians killed by Isreali Defence forces and Isreali civlians (i assume settlers militia). Palestinians casulties are not included in these numbers (which You can clearly see in the links).
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On November 30 2012 20:43 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 20:29 Tobberoth wrote:On November 30 2012 20:22 Silvanel wrote:On November 30 2012 20:08 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:40 Passion wrote:On November 30 2012 19:32 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:27 Passion wrote:On November 30 2012 19:18 Goozen wrote:On November 30 2012 19:06 Silvanel wrote:On November 30 2012 18:53 Cute_Fluff wrote:
NONE OF U IS JEWISH OR LIVES IN ISRAEL!
well i DO! and this is pure bullshit and incoherence, do your research on your own, look up what happened here from the start,
none of u remember that after israel was declared in the UN, just as Palestine was today - ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED BY ALL SURROUNDING ARAB COUNTRIES!
pls, stfu all of u!
and just a week ago - who BOMBED ISRAEL ?!?!? PALESTINE! u guys are dumb i live under the bombs! THEY ARE TERRORISTS LEAD BY TERRORISTS - AND U BRACE THEM!
and now u take them with open arms to the UN and all other orgs, so dumb
sure, let them in the NUCLEAR AGENCY !!! lets have IRAN 2!
open ur eyes, all Europe is full of muslims and arabs - this shit is coming fast to you all - a private Palestine in every EU country - good luck dealing with that, then come cry to us for advice.
damn peace-hippies! go gay up somewhere else!
concerned Israeli. Those peacefull people of Isreal, they would never resort to terrorist attack, terroism is bad? Right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombingOnly tip of the iceberg. Both sides did use violence and terrosim, the stronger won, the only "right" Jewish people have to those lands is a right of being stronger. I can respect that, but dont pretend You are better than Palestinians, Your are not. Also another nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks So comparing 65 years ago to actions today is fine, right? also people seem to ignore this form your link: "American author Thurston Clarke's analysis of the bombing gave timings for calls and for the explosion which he says took place at 12:37. He said that as part of the Irgun plan, a sixteen year old recruit, Adina Hay (alias Tehia), was to make three warning calls before the attack. At 12:22 the first call was made, in both Hebrew and English, to a telephone operator on the hotel's switchboard (the Secretariat and the military each had their own, separate, telephone exchanges). It was ignored.[4] At 12:27, the second warning call was made to the French Consulate adjacent to the hotel to the north-east. This second call was taken seriously and staff went through the building opening windows and closing curtains to lessen the impact of the blast. At 12:31 a third and final warning call to the Palestine Post newspaper was made. The telephone operator called the Palestine Police CID to report the message. She then called the hotel switchboard. The hotel operator reported the threat to one of the hotel managers. This warning resulted in the discovery of the milk churns in the basement, but by then it was too late.[4]" Their intent was to destroy HQ of the Britisher mandate, if they wanted to kill people why warn them before? Then again you compare attacking the HQ 65 years ago to sending rockets at civilians today. More OT this observer-state changes nothing, Abbas (Abu Mazen) fears his position as more corruption allegation have surfaced recently and he has hit a new low in popular support. The only practical thing the PA can gain from this is use of the ICC and that would be political suicide. Lol... fabulous excuse. Also have one for the ~10k Palestinian civilians that Israeli soldiers have murdered in the past 25 years? Yep, that's not 65 years ago. Edit: for comparison, Palestinians haven't even reached 2000 in the same period. So yea, what ever period we take to compare, you're the bad ones. Show proof that 10k are civilians, oh wait you cant! Also this isnt a numbers game and is not relevant to the topic so im done discussing it in this thread. Right on. Let's not talk about the problem but just shoot some Arabs - Israeli style. Still waiting for that proof of 10k civilians in the last 25 years. Until you provide it, nothing you say will or should be taken seriously as those who randomly shout without proof add nothing to a discussion. Around 1100 during 1987-1993 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_IntifadaAround 6500+50 during 2000-2012 http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.aspIt is suprisingly hard to find statiscs for 1993-2000. I would assume its pretty low, meaning ~100/year, but i can be wrong. Either way, i think its slightly below 10 000 in last 25years. No reason to be cherry about it though. Edit i have found it: 1367+115 during 1987-2000 http://www.btselem.org/statistics/first_intifada_tables Should be noted that btselem are often accused of having too broad of a definition of what consitutes a civilian, apparently they included palestinians who attacked israeli during the second infatada. It's always a matter of definition. These are Palestinians civilians killed by Isreali Defence forces and Isreali civlians (i assume settlers militia). Palestinians casulties are not included in these numbers (which You can clearly see in the links).
I'm saying their numbers lie, because they claim it's civilians, but it's a matter of definition who is a civilian and who isn't.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Germanborders.svg)
