|
Stay on topic. I cannot put it more clearly then that. Derailments will be met with consequences. ~Nyovne |
Germany lost half it's land to the USSR (let's not delude ourselves about 1945 Poland) in 1945. And started the Second World War in large part due to the remaining territory losses from the original Treaty of Versailles.
I don't think this picture tells what you want it to tell.
|
I can't remember ever hearing a U.N. speech before, so this was my first experience really paying attention to one. And blatant, prideful hubris disgusts me, no matter the banner it's under. 
|
Australia8532 Posts
On November 30 2012 12:16 cLAN.Anax wrote:I can't remember ever hearing a U.N. speech before, so this was my first experience really paying attention to one. And blatant, prideful hubris disgusts me, no matter the banner it's under.
Lol then I wouldn't listen to any other UN speeches because you'll end up hating every banner
|
Sad that canada voted against this measure.
They say its because they want to continue negotiations, but those negotiations have progressed no where in the past four years. It is mostly a statement of the government backing US/Israel. for shame.
Regardless of the potential economic repercussions, Palestine now has the ability to bring charges against Israel in the ICC.
|
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned.
|
On November 30 2012 12:10 Probe1 wrote:
Pretty much. I couldn't resist. If you're looking for a place of pompous speeches the UN General Assembly is pretty much the best game in town. The only thing that can rival a General Assembly is the opening of the Olympic Games.
Cirqueenflex if you really think that's relevant you're just being thick. That's a map of Prussia, Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Baden, Hesse, France in a 18th century, a map of the German Empire in the 19th century and a map of Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, France, Lithuania, Poland and Russia in the 20th century.
are we looking at the same map? I see no France, Belgium, Czechoslovakia etc on this map. I see a map of Germany in the year 1919 with the territories marked that got taken away (along with the years and names of the countries that recieved those territories at that time. It does not really matter if Russia cut out some parts of Poland for themselves, or if Czechoslovakia does not exist as a country anymore). I used this as an example that loss of land after a complete defeat in war is publicly accepted, which is the same as to what happened to palestina. I did this to answer someones question why no one raised much of an issue about Israels seeming expansion over the years as shown in the other map. Maybe I did not get the point and my content was irrelevant, if so I am sorry.
|
On November 30 2012 09:34 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 09:30 StayPhrosty wrote:On November 30 2012 08:45 Sermokala wrote:On November 30 2012 08:33 SEA KarMa wrote:On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture ![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pEfVJ93Cwa8/TDjQIyH5mGI/AAAAAAAAGmk/EA9TbmokMRE/s1600/israel-palestine-map.jpg) Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? They did. Media blocks out what they don't want you to hear. Media influenced by US. US likes Israel's side better than Palestine. Palestine loses more land. By this act of cutting funding, the US clearly marks their position. US doesn't show both sides arguments as they should. Lol. When you tell the world that your going to commite mass genocide on a people twice (literaly "we will throw them into the sea"). You should lose the right to complain about the lost land that results from this war. Israel has time and time again offered to give back all the land they've taken time and time again for peace. Palestine refuse's time and time again. so they lose more and more land because of it. i seriously suggest that you chill out a little and do some more research. It has been a long time since there was a serious opportunity for peace in Israel/Palestine. Both sides governments are heavily supported and influenced by radicals who will never settle for peace, regardless of whether or not one side says they'll just leave borders where they are. Both sides argue that everything is theirs, and regardless of how far back you go there will always be a vast majority of the population who feel their ancestral land has been stolen. There is not right or wrong side here. There is only violence and hatred from both Israel (and their allies) and Palestine (and their allies). The only solution is to stop killing each other and claiming more territory. Both sides need to work towards a system that involves them tolerating and working together with each other. Some people have proposed that a single-state system will not work, and any government will simply be too divided to get anything done, so they feel a 2-state system is what's necessary. This is up for debate, but whether one country or another "deserves" the land is a ridiculous and pointlessly inflammatory assumption. In regards to the new news - I'm honestly ashamed of the Harper government here so much. It's obvious that they would follow the US, and I really hope we can have another election here soon so we can get the freaking conservatives out. Sure, our right may not be as radical as the current US right, but that's not to say they're taking a step in the right direction - only that they're taking slower steps in the wrong direction. I'm not sure about the real impact of this UN position for Palestine, but hopefully more international recognition will bring pressure for a resolution to the conflict, rather than making either side more radical. If anybody has some insight into China or Russia's positions on the issue I would be really interested. I'm thinking the tensions between them and the US can't be good, and I wonder how much they really care about these kinds of votes (and the US and Canada's decisions seemed predetermined, but it really is interesting to see so many other nations not simply going with the US for political favour). Please tell me how on earth this is going to resolve the conflict? If anything it's a massive fuck you to every other party on the other side of the negotiation table. And by long since a serious opportunity for peace do you mean 2000? Because I don't think that was THAT long ago. The countries that voted against the resolution (well the main ones - US and Israel) have official positions that they ARE in favour of a Palestinian state - just not one created unilaterally - i don't see why that is a big problem. Why shouldn't Israel and Palestine negotiate bilaterally on issues that effect both of them.
Saying that Israel is currently in favour of a Palestinian state is kind of an exaggeration. Netanyahu, who belongs to a party which in their charter refuses to accept the creation of a Palestinian state and in fact argues for further expansion of the settlements, has stretched so far that he has neither endorsed, nor ruled out the concept of a Palestinian state, but to even speak of the creation of a such it would have to be a demilitarized zone where the Palestinians have no control over their own airspace.
If there is a true will from Israels side to negotiate, their opposing side just gained a lot of support within his population, making it more likely that a treaty would actually be honoured.
|
1019 Posts
On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned.
It's partly because of the jewish lobby in the US that strongarms congress into supporting israel. It sucks because the US is forced to deal with the shit happening over there simply because of a small group of wealthy jews who think that the US should be israel's little bitch. But they have the money -> they have the power -> they call the shots -> nobody can complain.
There is also the perception among Americans that israel is the only western-style democracy in the middle east that is standing in the face of undemocratic and unliberal islamic countries so they generally feel that the US should help Israel. The 9/11 terror attacks and the images of palestinians cheering the 9/11 attacks has also given a negative image of islam and middle eastern countries, so that has also contributed to less support for the palestinian cause.
Furthermore, from a geopolitical standpoint, israel serves as a frontline ally in a region (the middle east), where the US has lots of political and economic interest. It's kind of similar to the US relationship with qatar. It's also very similar to the US military/economic relationship with South Korea (for east asia) and germany (for europe).
|
On November 30 2012 13:01 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned. It's partly because of the jewish lobby in the US that strongarms congress into supporting israel. It sucks because the US is forced to deal with the shit happening over there simply because of a small group of wealthy jews who think that the US should be israel's little bitch. But they have the money -> they have the power -> they call the shots -> nobody can complain. There is also the perception among Americans that israel is the only western-style democracy in the middle east that is standing in the face of undemocratic and unliberal islamic countries so they generally feel that the US should help Israel. The 9/11 terror attacks and the images of palestinians cheering the 9/11 attacks has also given a negative image of islam and middle eastern countries, so that has also contributed to less support for the palestinian cause. Furthermore, from a geopolitical standpoint, israel serves as a frontline ally in a region (the middle east), where the US has lots of political and economic interest. It's kind of similar to the US relationship with qatar. It's also very similar to the US military/economic relationship with South Korea (for east asia) and germany (for europe).
Do not forgot The US also have a large and influential population of Evangelical Christians who believe the second coming will happen when the Jews own Jerusalem.
|
On November 30 2012 13:12 TNK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 13:01 white_horse wrote:On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned. It's partly because of the jewish lobby in the US that strongarms congress into supporting israel. It sucks because the US is forced to deal with the shit happening over there simply because of a small group of wealthy jews who think that the US should be israel's little bitch. But they have the money -> they have the power -> they call the shots -> nobody can complain. There is also the perception among Americans that israel is the only western-style democracy in the middle east that is standing in the face of undemocratic and unliberal islamic countries so they generally feel that the US should help Israel. The 9/11 terror attacks and the images of palestinians cheering the 9/11 attacks has also given a negative image of islam and middle eastern countries, so that has also contributed to less support for the palestinian cause. Furthermore, from a geopolitical standpoint, israel serves as a frontline ally in a region (the middle east), where the US has lots of political and economic interest. It's kind of similar to the US relationship with qatar. It's also very similar to the US military/economic relationship with South Korea (for east asia) and germany (for europe). Do not forgot The US also have a large and influential population of Evangelical Christians who believe the second coming will happen when the Jews own Jerusalem.
And....they happen to have nuclear weapons...
Why does EVERYONE manage to forget such an important fact?
|
On November 30 2012 13:01 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned. It's partly because of the jewish lobby in the US that strongarms congress into supporting israel. It sucks because the US is forced to deal with the shit happening over there simply because of a small group of wealthy jews who think that the US should be israel's little bitch. But they have the money -> they have the power -> they call the shots -> nobody can complain. There is also the perception among Americans that israel is the only western-style democracy in the middle east that is standing in the face of undemocratic and unliberal islamic countries so they generally feel that the US should help Israel. The 9/11 terror attacks and the images of palestinians cheering the 9/11 attacks has also given a negative image of islam and middle eastern countries, so that has also contributed to less support for the palestinian cause. Furthermore, from a geopolitical standpoint, israel serves as a frontline ally in a region (the middle east), where the US has lots of political and economic interest. It's kind of similar to the US relationship with qatar. It's also very similar to the US military/economic relationship with South Korea (for east asia) and germany (for europe).
Actually, with the 20 year destruction of Iraq and the takeover by Islamists in the few remaining secular Arab countries in the Mideast, Israel makes by far the most rational sense of any country in the region haha.
|
1019 Posts
On November 30 2012 14:04 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 13:01 white_horse wrote:On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned. It's partly because of the jewish lobby in the US that strongarms congress into supporting israel. It sucks because the US is forced to deal with the shit happening over there simply because of a small group of wealthy jews who think that the US should be israel's little bitch. But they have the money -> they have the power -> they call the shots -> nobody can complain. There is also the perception among Americans that israel is the only western-style democracy in the middle east that is standing in the face of undemocratic and unliberal islamic countries so they generally feel that the US should help Israel. The 9/11 terror attacks and the images of palestinians cheering the 9/11 attacks has also given a negative image of islam and middle eastern countries, so that has also contributed to less support for the palestinian cause. Furthermore, from a geopolitical standpoint, israel serves as a frontline ally in a region (the middle east), where the US has lots of political and economic interest. It's kind of similar to the US relationship with qatar. It's also very similar to the US military/economic relationship with South Korea (for east asia) and germany (for europe). Actually, with the 20 year destruction of Iraq and the takeover by Islamists in the few remaining secular Arab countries in the Mideast, Israel makes by far the most rational sense of any country in the region haha.
No, no, those reasons don't make israel any better as a US ally. I'm pretty sure many in the jewish lobby are as anti-islam or anti-arab as much as arabs are anti-jewish, which can partly be the reason why they lobby for pro-israel policies. Influencing a country's policy to suit your personal bias doesn't make the alliance with israel "rational". It's being selfish and totally unfair to the american people, who deserve a middle eastern foreign policy that betters all Americans, not just jewish-americans. Israel has their share of doing wrong things as much as arab nations have done wrong to israel. Nobody is "good".
If israel was the "rational" choice for an ally in the middle east, its only because, like I said, israel is a liberal democracy, which is most in line with the ideals that the US supports around the world. Also, since the US wants the world to stay stable, it supports israel to balance the equation in the israel vs arab nation conflict. If the US were to suddenly cut off all military and economic aid to israel, countries like iran or syria would walk all over israel. Nobody wants that kind of turmoil to happen. So it would only be natural to ally with israel in that regard.
|
On November 30 2012 14:28 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 14:04 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On November 30 2012 13:01 white_horse wrote:On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned. It's partly because of the jewish lobby in the US that strongarms congress into supporting israel. It sucks because the US is forced to deal with the shit happening over there simply because of a small group of wealthy jews who think that the US should be israel's little bitch. But they have the money -> they have the power -> they call the shots -> nobody can complain. There is also the perception among Americans that israel is the only western-style democracy in the middle east that is standing in the face of undemocratic and unliberal islamic countries so they generally feel that the US should help Israel. The 9/11 terror attacks and the images of palestinians cheering the 9/11 attacks has also given a negative image of islam and middle eastern countries, so that has also contributed to less support for the palestinian cause. Furthermore, from a geopolitical standpoint, israel serves as a frontline ally in a region (the middle east), where the US has lots of political and economic interest. It's kind of similar to the US relationship with qatar. It's also very similar to the US military/economic relationship with South Korea (for east asia) and germany (for europe). Actually, with the 20 year destruction of Iraq and the takeover by Islamists in the few remaining secular Arab countries in the Mideast, Israel makes by far the most rational sense of any country in the region haha. No, no, those reasons don't make israel any better as a US ally. I'm pretty sure many in the jewish lobby are as anti-islam or anti-arab as much as arabs are anti-jewish, which can partly be the reason why they lobby for pro-israel policies. Influencing a country's policy to suit your personal bias doesn't make the alliance with israel "rational". It's being selfish and totally unfair to the american people, who deserve a middle eastern foreign policy that betters all Americans, not just jewish-americans. Israel has their share of doing wrong things as much as arab nations have done wrong to israel. Nobody is "good". If israel was the "rational" choice for an ally in the middle east, its only because, like I said, israel is a liberal democracy, which is most in line with the ideals that the US supports around the world. Also, since the US wants the world to stay stable, it supports israel to balance the equation in the israel vs arab nation conflict. If the US were to suddenly cut off all military and economic aid to israel, countries like iran or syria would walk all over israel. Nobody wants that kind of turmoil to happen. So it would only be natural to ally with israel in that regard.
Not exactly. Most pro-Israel PAC's, like AIPAC aren't actually anti-Islam at all. While they are zionist, as are many jews, that is a different story by the way, it is more about the cold war than anything else. Israel is actually a really good ally, and the reason why it gets hated on is because Palestine really doesn't because of a lot of world bias that comes with ignoring terrorism against israel and focusing on israeli reaction. While israel definitely makes questionable decisions Israel is not a bad ally. Also your post just ignores all the modern history of that region. Arab nations have tried, about 5-6 times in the past to do what you have said, the U.S. has intervened about half the time with only aid to Israel. Israel has pretty much rofl-stomped up to 4 nations at a time in various wars. Finally, in general, Israel is the most reasonable country in the region. They are economically sound, westernized, huge producers of science, enormous medical achievements, and the countries around them have 1 asset that will be out before they know it in oil. The fact is that while people like to hate on Israel, most times it is pretty misguided. The reason that palestine was being blocked from the UN is the fact that the UN is an American creation, funded by the dollar from America and if other nations and people want to be shocked by this action, they better pony up some cash to fund the UN.
EDIT: just looked over another post of yours, where are you getting these conspiracy theories from? every PAC strong arms congress, it is called lobbying, why do you think the jews are doing it extra hard? Before there were jewish lobbies that powerful, America was supporting Israel lol.
|
On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned.
Simple answer: Israel is democratic. Palestine is currently controlled, at least in half, by a terrorist organization that sends thousands of rockets a year into Israel.
|
On November 30 2012 14:48 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned. Simple answer: Israel is democratic. Palestine is currently controlled, at least in half, by a terrorist organization that sends thousands of rockets a year into Israel.
I like how you conveniently ignore the fact that Israel used illegal weaponry and killed thousands upon thousands of civilians just four years ago.
|
On November 30 2012 14:51 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 14:48 Abraxas514 wrote:On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned. Simple answer: Israel is democratic. Palestine is currently controlled, at least in half, by a terrorist organization that sends thousands of rockets a year into Israel. I like how you conveniently ignore the fact that Israel used illegal weaponry and killed thousands upon thousands of civilians just four years ago.
Just like most countries I can think of have done in their past for much lighter offenses than another countries government shooting rockets at civilians, intentionally using illegal terrorist methods to kill civilians in a country that responded. The response was harsh, maybe even overreactive, but many people would have Israel do nothing. That would be truly unacceptable to its populace which gets bombed literally daily, even through this "ceasefire."
|
On November 30 2012 14:51 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 14:48 Abraxas514 wrote:On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned. Simple answer: Israel is democratic. Palestine is currently controlled, at least in half, by a terrorist organization that sends thousands of rockets a year into Israel. I like how you conveniently ignore the fact that Israel used illegal weaponry and killed thousands upon thousands of civilians just four years ago.
We can acknowledge the atrocities committed on both sides of the conflict while being especially critical when it comes to taking a closer look at the supposed "leadership" of the Palestinian people. Since the outset of the conflict in the area circa the British Mandate and Mandatory Palestine, foreign Arab influence has played a pivotal role in determining the direction of the Palestinian people, and to what degree this influence is making this conflict more difficult to resolve is a reasonable avenue of inquiry.
|
On November 30 2012 14:48 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned. Simple answer: Israel is democratic. Palestine is currently controlled, at least in half, by a terrorist organization that sends thousands of rockets a year into Israel.
All of this, plus the US has a stable regional ally in Israel. You can't really say that about any other country in the region. Even Saudi Arabia has internal pressures that could potentially lead it to turn anti-American if the Saudi regime fell.
|
I find it interesting that Israel was created by the UN and recognized by the UN and Palestinians (I guess the radicals) don't accept their right to exist.
Then 7 decades later the same thing happens to Palestine.
|
On November 30 2012 14:51 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 14:48 Abraxas514 wrote:On November 30 2012 12:31 paradox719 wrote:
I don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel or why it is so opposed to Palestine, this law needs to be overturned. Simple answer: Israel is democratic. Palestine is currently controlled, at least in half, by a terrorist organization that sends thousands of rockets a year into Israel. I like how you conveniently ignore the fact that Israel used illegal weaponry and killed thousands upon thousands of civilians just four years ago.
I like how you conveniently ignore the fact that Hamas uses civilians as human shields on military objectives, deliberately disguise combatants as civilians and use dense population centers as bases for military operations. Let's see you fucking launch a civilian casualty-free military operation against a foe that uses tactics like that.
There's good reasons why the Fourth Geneva Convention/Additional Protocols were written, signed and adhered to by the Western world; if players in a war used the death of civilians as part of a play-to-win strategy, conflict becomes *so much worse* than it already is.
Israel is brutal, and guilty of various things, including some humanitarian law violations that I condemn Hamas so harshly for, but at least Israeli soldiers can and did get prosecuted for doing indiscriminate civilian killing or making decisions that kill unnecessary civilians so at least on some level, Israel cares.
Hamas thinks inflicting civilian casualties is a good thing and thinks that intentionally using civilians as part of its war strategy is perfectly acceptable. Hamas clearly and officially doesn't give a fuck about protecting civilians *on either side* and that is a horrible ideology to support.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
