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Stay on topic. I cannot put it more clearly then that. Derailments will be met with consequences. ~Nyovne |
On November 30 2012 09:24 Sermokala wrote:
How little support they have? They have someone on their side that wipes the whole issue away from the table. they have someone on their side that overwhelmingly supports them (80% by cnns last poll) and just happens to be the last world in global military matters.
It is clear that Isreal's ability to project soft and hard power has decreased quite a bit. Two decades ago, I'd have included the majority (or at least some) of the European nations on the "reject" list. The situation has obviously changed now.
Is the decrease meaningful enough to impact matters? No doubt it matters on the margin, but I don't know if it matters beyond that. The ability to murder your opponents is certainly a powerful disincentive in international affairs, and the United States certainly still has that ability in spades. However, its ability to unilaterally sanction countries through less-violent methods has significantly diminished, as the economic power of other nations has increased.
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Australia8532 Posts
On November 30 2012 09:30 StayPhrosty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 08:45 Sermokala wrote:On November 30 2012 08:33 SEA KarMa wrote:On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture ![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pEfVJ93Cwa8/TDjQIyH5mGI/AAAAAAAAGmk/EA9TbmokMRE/s1600/israel-palestine-map.jpg) Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? They did. Media blocks out what they don't want you to hear. Media influenced by US. US likes Israel's side better than Palestine. Palestine loses more land. By this act of cutting funding, the US clearly marks their position. US doesn't show both sides arguments as they should. Lol. When you tell the world that your going to commite mass genocide on a people twice (literaly "we will throw them into the sea"). You should lose the right to complain about the lost land that results from this war. Israel has time and time again offered to give back all the land they've taken time and time again for peace. Palestine refuse's time and time again. so they lose more and more land because of it. i seriously suggest that you chill out a little and do some more research. It has been a long time since there was a serious opportunity for peace in Israel/Palestine. Both sides governments are heavily supported and influenced by radicals who will never settle for peace, regardless of whether or not one side says they'll just leave borders where they are. Both sides argue that everything is theirs, and regardless of how far back you go there will always be a vast majority of the population who feel their ancestral land has been stolen. There is not right or wrong side here. There is only violence and hatred from both Israel (and their allies) and Palestine (and their allies). The only solution is to stop killing each other and claiming more territory. Both sides need to work towards a system that involves them tolerating and working together with each other. Some people have proposed that a single-state system will not work, and any government will simply be too divided to get anything done, so they feel a 2-state system is what's necessary. This is up for debate, but whether one country or another "deserves" the land is a ridiculous and pointlessly inflammatory assumption. In regards to the new news - I'm honestly ashamed of the Harper government here so much. It's obvious that they would follow the US, and I really hope we can have another election here soon so we can get the freaking conservatives out. Sure, our right may not be as radical as the current US right, but that's not to say they're taking a step in the right direction - only that they're taking slower steps in the wrong direction. I'm not sure about the real impact of this UN position for Palestine, but hopefully more international recognition will bring pressure for a resolution to the conflict, rather than making either side more radical. If anybody has some insight into China or Russia's positions on the issue I would be really interested. I'm thinking the tensions between them and the US can't be good, and I wonder how much they really care about these kinds of votes (and the US and Canada's decisions seemed predetermined, but it really is interesting to see so many other nations not simply going with the US for political favour).
Please tell me how on earth this is going to resolve the conflict? If anything it's a massive fuck you to every other party on the other side of the negotiation table. And by long since a serious opportunity for peace do you mean 2000? Because I don't think that was THAT long ago. The countries that voted against the resolution (well the main ones - US and Israel) have official positions that they ARE in favour of a Palestinian state - just not one created unilaterally - i don't see why that is a big problem. Why shouldn't Israel and Palestine negotiate bilaterally on issues that effect both of them.
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I kinda like this. It strengthens Palestine while weakening Hamas, without any real consequences to Israel. Israel still has powerful enough friends to nullify anything Palestine wants to pull in the UN.
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On November 30 2012 09:30 StayPhrosty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 09:26 Tuczniak wrote:On November 30 2012 08:32 Praetorial wrote:
Okay, I found some stuff on Czech Republic.
Israel and it are close military allies, and the CR has been very outspoken against the flotillas.
Hmmm, I probably should have visited the museums of Prague when I was there a few years ago instead of drinking beer and climbing up towers. I'm little proud to be czech now :D. Nah, not really. Anyway, I don't follow domestic politics, but we have pretty good relations with Israel, and trying to get even better with US. Also the importatnt thing is that it doesn't hurt us to stand on this side. Generaly public opinions are pro-US and pro-Izrael compared to other european countries. Also we like to speak against regimes like Kuba, China. This case may be little similar. I see where you're coming from, but this is a much more complex issue than that. Israel and Palestine are far more muddled than most "good guy/bad guy nation" politics. That's not to say this kind of thing is ever that obvious, but this case in particular has even less distinction. Many people don;t realize it, but the Israeli radicals cause many in the area to view all "westerners" in a bad light. This means that many European and North American people are immediately looked at in a very bad light, despite perhaps not even having very much at all to do with Israel or Palestine. I hope I can encourage you to read more on the issue, as it really is very difficult for me to word properly in a single discussion (and honestly I want more information as well. I think it's really difficult to be an 'expert' on the issue, so I make no claims of it myself and am humbly open to a new perspective on it as well). I didn't say any of mine opinions about situation there. I just said what I thought what our (czech) politics, public opinions and general viewpoint are.
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On November 30 2012 09:34 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 09:30 StayPhrosty wrote:On November 30 2012 08:45 Sermokala wrote:On November 30 2012 08:33 SEA KarMa wrote:On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? They did. Media blocks out what they don't want you to hear. Media influenced by US. US likes Israel's side better than Palestine. Palestine loses more land. By this act of cutting funding, the US clearly marks their position. US doesn't show both sides arguments as they should. Lol. When you tell the world that your going to commite mass genocide on a people twice (literaly "we will throw them into the sea"). You should lose the right to complain about the lost land that results from this war. Israel has time and time again offered to give back all the land they've taken time and time again for peace. Palestine refuse's time and time again. so they lose more and more land because of it. i seriously suggest that you chill out a little and do some more research. It has been a long time since there was a serious opportunity for peace in Israel/Palestine. Both sides governments are heavily supported and influenced by radicals who will never settle for peace, regardless of whether or not one side says they'll just leave borders where they are. Both sides argue that everything is theirs, and regardless of how far back you go there will always be a vast majority of the population who feel their ancestral land has been stolen. There is not right or wrong side here. There is only violence and hatred from both Israel (and their allies) and Palestine (and their allies). The only solution is to stop killing each other and claiming more territory. Both sides need to work towards a system that involves them tolerating and working together with each other. Some people have proposed that a single-state system will not work, and any government will simply be too divided to get anything done, so they feel a 2-state system is what's necessary. This is up for debate, but whether one country or another "deserves" the land is a ridiculous and pointlessly inflammatory assumption. In regards to the new news - I'm honestly ashamed of the Harper government here so much. It's obvious that they would follow the US, and I really hope we can have another election here soon so we can get the freaking conservatives out. Sure, our right may not be as radical as the current US right, but that's not to say they're taking a step in the right direction - only that they're taking slower steps in the wrong direction. I'm not sure about the real impact of this UN position for Palestine, but hopefully more international recognition will bring pressure for a resolution to the conflict, rather than making either side more radical. If anybody has some insight into China or Russia's positions on the issue I would be really interested. I'm thinking the tensions between them and the US can't be good, and I wonder how much they really care about these kinds of votes (and the US and Canada's decisions seemed predetermined, but it really is interesting to see so many other nations not simply going with the US for political favour). Please tell me how on earth this is going to resolve the conflict? If anything it's a massive fuck you to every other party on the other side of the negotiation table. And by long since a serious opportunity for peace do you mean 2000? Because I don't think that was THAT long ago. The countries that voted against the resolution (well the main ones - US and Israel) have official positions that they ARE in favour of a Palestinian state - just not one created unilaterally - i don't see why that is a big problem. Why shouldn't Israel and Palestine negotiate bilaterally on issues that effect both of them.
I'm not sure what you mean. I didn't intend to say anything about a single thing resolving the conflict (aside from not killing each other, but I don't think you disagreed with that part). As far as the massive fuck you, if you are referring to the fact that the US and it's allies stood quite alone then I'm honestly open to more information on it. As far as I knew, this wasn't a major event, but perhaps it was more insulting than I realized (and yes, as far as Canadian politics go, our current administration will probably vote with the US on every Israel issue). To me, 2000 was both a while ago, and was riddled by conflict. Yes, it seems like the closest the two have come so far, but from what I have read there were those in both Israel's and Palestine's government that took active steps to prevent a peace settlement. As well, I would say that bilateral negotiations are a good thing, and if I said otherwise then I misspoke. It seems that you are implying that the US and Israel are open to negotiation but Palestine isn't. If i am wrong in this assumption then please forgive me, but that's what it seems like you're saying at the end there. To this it seems quite obvious that both sides are currently taking steps to enrage and promote conflict. On the other hand, if you are commenting on the fact that the US voted in support of Israel then I really would like to hear some information to say that this is really surprising. Anyways, thanks for the reply at least.
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On November 30 2012 09:45 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 09:30 StayPhrosty wrote:On November 30 2012 09:26 Tuczniak wrote:On November 30 2012 08:32 Praetorial wrote:
Okay, I found some stuff on Czech Republic.
Israel and it are close military allies, and the CR has been very outspoken against the flotillas.
Hmmm, I probably should have visited the museums of Prague when I was there a few years ago instead of drinking beer and climbing up towers. I'm little proud to be czech now :D. Nah, not really. Anyway, I don't follow domestic politics, but we have pretty good relations with Israel, and trying to get even better with US. Also the importatnt thing is that it doesn't hurt us to stand on this side. Generaly public opinions are pro-US and pro-Izrael compared to other european countries. Also we like to speak against regimes like Kuba, China. This case may be little similar. I see where you're coming from, but this is a much more complex issue than that. Israel and Palestine are far more muddled than most "good guy/bad guy nation" politics. That's not to say this kind of thing is ever that obvious, but this case in particular has even less distinction. Many people don;t realize it, but the Israeli radicals cause many in the area to view all "westerners" in a bad light. This means that many European and North American people are immediately looked at in a very bad light, despite perhaps not even having very much at all to do with Israel or Palestine. I hope I can encourage you to read more on the issue, as it really is very difficult for me to word properly in a single discussion (and honestly I want more information as well. I think it's really difficult to be an 'expert' on the issue, so I make no claims of it myself and am humbly open to a new perspective on it as well). I didn't say any of mine opinions about situation there. I just said what I thought what our (czech) politics, public opinions and general viewpoint are.
Ah, sorry I assumed that's what you were saying. Saying that the Chinese regime is similar to the Palestinian one is what seemed off to me. If you would care to elaborate I would appreciate it. As well, perhaps i am a little biased against the US because I grew up in Canada, but I really strongly hold the opinion that acting in line with the US is really not always going to be a positive thing, even if it means better relations or more economic activity. Maybe I'm a little idealistic, but it seems that this issue is a little too controversial just to assume that voting with the US is necessarily good. I mean, there were several major US trading partners who didn't vote with them, so it seems surprising that this is important in the CR (but honestly I could perhaps use some more information).
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Doesn't look like this's been posted yet. Israeli Ambassador had these words to say to Abbas at the U.N.
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On November 30 2012 10:22 StayPhrosty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 09:45 Tuczniak wrote:On November 30 2012 09:30 StayPhrosty wrote:On November 30 2012 09:26 Tuczniak wrote:On November 30 2012 08:32 Praetorial wrote:
Okay, I found some stuff on Czech Republic.
Israel and it are close military allies, and the CR has been very outspoken against the flotillas.
Hmmm, I probably should have visited the museums of Prague when I was there a few years ago instead of drinking beer and climbing up towers. I'm little proud to be czech now :D. Nah, not really. Anyway, I don't follow domestic politics, but we have pretty good relations with Israel, and trying to get even better with US. Also the importatnt thing is that it doesn't hurt us to stand on this side. Generaly public opinions are pro-US and pro-Izrael compared to other european countries. Also we like to speak against regimes like Kuba, China. This case may be little similar. I see where you're coming from, but this is a much more complex issue than that. Israel and Palestine are far more muddled than most "good guy/bad guy nation" politics. That's not to say this kind of thing is ever that obvious, but this case in particular has even less distinction. Many people don;t realize it, but the Israeli radicals cause many in the area to view all "westerners" in a bad light. This means that many European and North American people are immediately looked at in a very bad light, despite perhaps not even having very much at all to do with Israel or Palestine. I hope I can encourage you to read more on the issue, as it really is very difficult for me to word properly in a single discussion (and honestly I want more information as well. I think it's really difficult to be an 'expert' on the issue, so I make no claims of it myself and am humbly open to a new perspective on it as well). I didn't say any of mine opinions about situation there. I just said what I thought what our (czech) politics, public opinions and general viewpoint are. Ah, sorry I assumed that's what you were saying. Saying that the Chinese regime is similar to the Palestinian one is what seemed off to me. If you would care to elaborate I would appreciate it. As well, perhaps i am a little biased against the US because I grew up in Canada, but I really strongly hold the opinion that acting in line with the US is really not always going to be a positive thing, even if it means better relations or more economic activity. Maybe I'm a little idealistic, but it seems that this issue is a little too controversial just to assume that voting with the US is necessarily good. I mean, there were several major US trading partners who didn't vote with them, so it seems surprising that this is important in the CR (but honestly I could perhaps use some more information). Yeah, I see what you are saying.
Mine note about Cuba and China was little out of place. I just get the feeling that CR likes to speak against some countries, while the rest of Europe is trying to stay neutral or play on both sides. This would be good trait, but I'm not sure if we would have done it, if it meant economic damage. In history we usually just talked, joked and didn't do much.
I think we really voted because we are friends with Izrael. More on political plane, I don't think we have some huge economical interests. Days when we gave them weapons to defend their state are over. It's US job now.
But I really don't follow our domestic scene much, so they may have made an announcement about this explaning some deep reasons. There were very little information about CR in this topic, so I though I would write at least what I think.
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On November 30 2012 10:47 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 10:22 StayPhrosty wrote:On November 30 2012 09:45 Tuczniak wrote:On November 30 2012 09:30 StayPhrosty wrote:On November 30 2012 09:26 Tuczniak wrote:On November 30 2012 08:32 Praetorial wrote:
Okay, I found some stuff on Czech Republic.
Israel and it are close military allies, and the CR has been very outspoken against the flotillas.
Hmmm, I probably should have visited the museums of Prague when I was there a few years ago instead of drinking beer and climbing up towers. I'm little proud to be czech now :D. Nah, not really. Anyway, I don't follow domestic politics, but we have pretty good relations with Israel, and trying to get even better with US. Also the importatnt thing is that it doesn't hurt us to stand on this side. Generaly public opinions are pro-US and pro-Izrael compared to other european countries. Also we like to speak against regimes like Kuba, China. This case may be little similar. I see where you're coming from, but this is a much more complex issue than that. Israel and Palestine are far more muddled than most "good guy/bad guy nation" politics. That's not to say this kind of thing is ever that obvious, but this case in particular has even less distinction. Many people don;t realize it, but the Israeli radicals cause many in the area to view all "westerners" in a bad light. This means that many European and North American people are immediately looked at in a very bad light, despite perhaps not even having very much at all to do with Israel or Palestine. I hope I can encourage you to read more on the issue, as it really is very difficult for me to word properly in a single discussion (and honestly I want more information as well. I think it's really difficult to be an 'expert' on the issue, so I make no claims of it myself and am humbly open to a new perspective on it as well). I didn't say any of mine opinions about situation there. I just said what I thought what our (czech) politics, public opinions and general viewpoint are. Ah, sorry I assumed that's what you were saying. Saying that the Chinese regime is similar to the Palestinian one is what seemed off to me. If you would care to elaborate I would appreciate it. As well, perhaps i am a little biased against the US because I grew up in Canada, but I really strongly hold the opinion that acting in line with the US is really not always going to be a positive thing, even if it means better relations or more economic activity. Maybe I'm a little idealistic, but it seems that this issue is a little too controversial just to assume that voting with the US is necessarily good. I mean, there were several major US trading partners who didn't vote with them, so it seems surprising that this is important in the CR (but honestly I could perhaps use some more information). Yeah, I see what you are saying. Mine note about Cuba and China was little out of place. I just get the feeling that CR likes to speak against some countries, while the rest of Europe is trying to stay neutral or play on both sides. This would be good trait, but I'm not sure if we would have done it, if it meant economic damage. In history we usually just talked, joked and didn't do much. I think we really voted because we are friends with Izrael. More on political plane, I don't think we have some huge economical interests. Days when we gave them weapons to defend their state are over. It's US job now. But I really don't follow our domestic scene much, so they may have made an announcement about this explaning some deep reasons. There were very little information about CR in this topic, so I though I would write at least what I think.
It was always the US giving weapons to defend their state. When those weapons were given to the Israel people to defend their state the CR was still in the soviet union giving the arab states around them the weapons to kill the Israel people. This is the core reason why Israel has such disproportionate military strength compared to the nations around it. The supporter of which kept feeding money to its client state and continued to grow a military industry within Isreal itself.
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On November 30 2012 10:29 cLAN.Anax wrote:Doesn't look like this's been posted yet. Israeli Ambassador had these words to say to Abbas at the U.N.
I would kill to be as good a speaker as that guy is.
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I would kill to have cliff notes. I don't have 15 minutes.
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Australia8532 Posts
On November 30 2012 11:44 Probe1 wrote:
I would kill to have cliff notes. I don't have 15 minutes.
The Israeli narrative in 15min and how a Palestinian resolution the General Assembly does nothing to help the peace process.
It's a good history lesson if you want a pro-Israel perspective
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On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades?
They started a war and lost. Spoils to the victor.
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On November 30 2012 11:46 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:44 Probe1 wrote:
I would kill to have cliff notes. I don't have 15 minutes. The Israeli narrative in 15min and how a Palestinian resolution the General Assembly does nothing to help the peace process. It's a good history lesson if you want a pro-Israel perspective
After writing that it kinda guilted me into sitting here and listening lol. You've summed it up perfectly for the first ten minutes so far.
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Yes, he speech leans very heavily pro-Israel. I support the Jewish state as well, but dang, those were some self-glorifying words. There's a lot in what he said that I agree with, yet I wish he didn't sound so pompous, but that's just me....
Here's how I'm seeing this, gathering what I can from the vid: Hamas is the problem here, so forget the whole "state" stuff and deal with these terrorists first. If Palestine really wants peace, and if they truly don't support Hamas, wouldn't one think that Palestine would be more receptive to Israel helping them clean house of the terrorists infesting their country? Freeze the borders now, stop Hamas soon, and argue over politics later.
(Edit: my poor spelling.... ;_; )
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The Israeli ambassadors speech was pro-Israel. Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmmmmm. (lol)
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On November 30 2012 11:59 Probe1 wrote:
The Israeli ambassadors speech was pro-Israel. Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmmmmm. (lol)
It's the obvious things that are fun to complain about.
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On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades?
pretty much the same way this happened:
do people care that Germany lost half its land over the past 100 years? Not really. You lose the war, you lose your land, winner takes all (sad enough the loss of land after WW1 was quite a part of the reason for Hitler to get power in the first place).
So how did Israel did get that big? They were attacked (or landed a preemptive first strike when there was clearly an attack incoming), won all their wars, and took some land every time. They were even nice enough to give the entire sinaii semi island back to Egypt just to make peace, even though they really could use some more land. If they wouldn't have won their wars, they would be wiped out completely by now.
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Pretty much. I couldn't resist. If you're looking for a place of pompous speeches the UN General Assembly is pretty much the best game in town. The only thing that can rival a General Assembly is the opening of the Olympic Games.
Cirqueenflex if you really think that's relevant you're just being thick. That's a map of Prussia, Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Baden, Hesse, France in a 18th century, a map of the German Empire in the 19th century and a map of Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, France, Lithuania, Poland and Russia in the 20th century.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Germanborders.svg)
