EPTPalestine accepted into UNESCO, US pulls funding - Page 29
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Stay on topic. I cannot put it more clearly then that. Derailments will be met with consequences. ~Nyovne | ||
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Wrath 2.1
Germany880 Posts
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HotShizz
France710 Posts
On November 13 2011 08:26 HellRoxYa wrote: Only as long as the other kids don't gang up on him, and that's where my comment becomes relevant again. The bully isn't financing the playground, it's a joint effort by all the children. In fact the bully pays less than his fair share in % and gets away with it, because he is a bully. 195 member states... US paying for 20% of budget according to OP... yeah sounds like they aren't paying a fair percentage but on the wrong side there buddy. Also sounds like Sweden voted no as well... soo maybe quit with the bashing? | ||
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Housemd
United States1407 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 14 2011 04:23 Housemd wrote: Something that I've never quite understood (it's been brought up in this thread a few pages back) in this conflict is the fact that Israel is taking Palestinian land when they are fighting wars against Egypt and Syria (For example the 1973 Yom Kippur War). Does anyone know if this is the result of winning a war and taking someone's land or just being a bully and building illegal settlements on land owned by Palestine? It is the second. At first, Israel signed a treaty with certain borders. The Arabs refused to acknowledge those borders because, despite the fact that they were more (60% arabs for 40% jew I think) they had less land. But, despite the treaty, some jew decided to settled themselves in the part that should belong to the Arabs. There is even a part of Jerusalem that should belong to the Arabs and where the Israeli continue to build upon. Against Egypt and Syria, after the 6 days war, Israel tried to keep a part of Egypt's land (because they won the war), but nobody agreed (the US and France were agains that) and they had to give it back. | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
On November 13 2011 09:30 hytonight wrote: so what would your common sense be saying right now. This may come out wrong, but if i had the choice (which i obviously do not have) i would remove Israel as a state, form a completly secular palestine state which would include Israel. After that i would remove all nationalstates alltogether. Make humanity work together to get rid of poverty, blind religious faith (aka organized religion. Everyone should be entitled to their own view, but people should be content with not luring other people into their power/money schemes (every major religion)), wealth on the expense of others and other issues that we in a sensible collective where practicly everyones opinion is voiced. After that is achieved and everyone have a real opporunity to live as they want or at least when everyone have a place to stay and enough to eat, we can finally set out to explore and colonize the universe and expand intellectually and technologically as a peaceful and enlightened species altogether. That is what my common sense tells me :D | ||
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On November 14 2011 21:45 Teoman wrote: This may come out wrong, but if i had the choice (which i obviously do not have) i would remove Israel as a state, form a completly secular palestine state which would include Israel. After that i would remove all nationalstates alltogether. Make humanity work together to get rid of poverty, blind religious faith (aka organized religion. Everyone should be entitled to their own view, but people should be content with not luring other people into their power/money schemes (every major religion)), wealth on the expense of others and other issues that we in a sensible collective where practicly everyones opinion is voiced. After that is achieved and everyone have a real opporunity to live as they want or at least when everyone have a place to stay and enough to eat, we can finally set out to explore and colonize the universe and expand intellectually and technologically as a peaceful and enlightened species altogether. That is what my common sense tells me :D The problem is "make humanity work together" means forcing everyone into a particular power/money scheme. (and "practically everyone's opionon is voiced"... the issue comes when deciding who's opinion will not get voiced.. as well as how the collective responds when those who voice their opinion disagree about what the collective should do) While it might be nice to do away with all "power/money schemes" (nation-states/organized religions/corporations/homeowners associations/clubs/families) the only way to Truly do that would be to eliminate all human contact (put every individual on their own planet and elminate space travel+radio...or merge humanity into one true group mind.. ie so there only is one person... or reprogram human minds on a Very basic level.) | ||
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ThePinkFloyd
Belgium16 Posts
On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote: holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? No one raised the issue over the course of decades? It's not because you weren't alive that there were no issues. This issue has been one of the major global crises over the past 70 years. Basically, to make up for WW2, the victorious countries gave the Jew communities land. Land that used to belong to other people. Both parties have been at war ever since. The end. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:22 Krikkitone wrote: "make humanity work together" means forcing everyone into a particular power/money scheme. ever heard of school or education? civic values? ethics? even the performance of having that humanist aspiration itself would seem to matter, or the experience of playing with kids from different cultures and not being told that your race is so much better than theirs. having a particular aspiration, such as "i want to go to the park with my buddies today" does not mean you want to force everyone to the park at gunpoint. if it makes no sense to think that you wanting to go do something together with your friends is a gesture of dangerous idealism, it would seem that grand political aspirations should be sensible as well. that region's old folks already has done their part in creating the hatred and prejudices. but hey, since we obviously cannot do anything but accept the brutal and cruel reality of our own badness, we will have to accept that state of affairs go on to the next generation. excuse me while i go kill some people and take their women. | ||
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nebula.
Sweden1431 Posts
Also sounds like Sweden voted no as well... soo maybe quit with the bashing? so because Sweden as a country votes against we swedes can't think it's wrong? i thought france was a democratic country - i guess things have changed a bit since Dickolas Sarkozy was elected. | ||
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HotShizz
France710 Posts
On November 15 2011 03:52 tsilaicos wrote: so because Sweden as a country votes against we swedes can't think it's wrong? i thought france was a democratic country - i guess things have changed a bit since Dickolas Sarkozy was elected. No you can think its wrong as I'm sure thousands or millions of Americans do... the point is don't bash on the country because you don't agree with their actions... we vote and either the majority agrees or it doesn't, however whatever decision is made, don't slander an entire country of hundreds of millions of individuals because their leaders made a decision you don't agree with... that's my only point  edit: the main point goes back to the thread of the bully does what he wants too, etc etc... "the bully" that is being demonized is a nation of 300 - 400 million individuals... Don't demonize a bunch of individuals or bash a country, they're just people like you or me. | ||
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On November 15 2011 03:51 oneofthem wrote: ever heard of school or education? civic values? ethics? even the performance of having that humanist aspiration itself would seem to matter, or the experience of playing with kids from different cultures and not being told that your race is so much better than theirs. having a particular aspiration, such as "i want to go to the park with my buddies today" does not mean you want to force everyone to the park at gunpoint. if it makes no sense to think that you wanting to go do something together with your friends is a gesture of dangerous idealism, it would seem that grand political aspirations should be sensible as well. that region's old folks already has done their part in creating the hatred and prejudices. but hey, since we obviously cannot do anything but accept the brutal and cruel reality of our own badness, we will have to accept that state of affairs go on to the next generation. excuse me while i go kill some people and take their women. Wanting humanity work together =/= Making humanity work together. also those ethics/civic values/schools of education are creations of power/money schemes (some are very Old power schemes predating organized religion or a 'nation-states' but they are still power schemes.) They are part of the power schemes that actually Make humans work together. I'm saying we recognize our own badness (as evidenced by the messed up nature of our power/money schemes) and either 1. do away with power/money schemes and resign to never working with other humans OR 2. work to either design new power/money schemes or adapt existing ones to allow them to help people work together better... making sure to realize that the people controlling the power money scheme AND the people controlled by it are both bad... and you can't get rid of that unless you get rid of people. As illustrated by the overall topic of this thread... not every American, Israeli, or Palestinian is very bad... not even every one in their governments is (or in UNESCO). However, there is some degree of badness in Any sufficiently large group. And that can lead to situations like the OP. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On November 15 2011 03:51 oneofthem wrote: ever heard of school or education? civic values? ethics? even the performance of having that humanist aspiration itself would seem to matter, or the experience of playing with kids from different cultures and not being told that your race is so much better than theirs. You can't really compare social ethics to international ethics, the entire system is different. One of the basic principles of the international system is there is no universal moral code over states, and there is no higher authority to turn to that enforces some sort of moral code. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:02 Dfgj wrote: You can't really compare social ethics to international ethics, the entire system is different. One of the basic principles of the international system is there is no universal moral code over states, and there is no higher authority to turn to that enforces some sort of moral code. Nobody ever said that there are no universel moral code (some ethnologue argue that but that's not the point). But, it doesn't mean that the humanity as a whole can't work together. Women and men work together sometime, despite obvious difference in education, etc. Your argument doesn't mean at all that it is not possible for men to find a ground where they can work together. Implying that, because people have different culture, they cannot work together, is what we call cultural relativism. | ||
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nebula.
Sweden1431 Posts
No you can think its wrong as I'm sure thousands or millions of Americans do... the point is don't bash on the country because you don't agree with their actions... we vote and either the majority agrees or it doesn't, however whatever decision is made, don't slander an entire country of hundreds of millions of individuals because their leaders made a decision you don't agree with... that's my only point edit: the main point goes back to the thread of the bully does what he wants too, etc etc... "the bully" that is being demonized is a nation of 300 - 400 million individuals... Don't demonize a bunch of individuals or bash a country, they're just people like you or me. the metaphor (the bully) isn't about the people but the decision makers. i'd never call the americans as a people for bullies in that regard. sorry for my bad english | ||
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:10 WhiteDog wrote: Nobody ever said that there are no universel moral code (some ethnologue argue that but that's not the point). But, it doesn't mean that the humanity as a whole can't work together. Women and men work together sometime, despite obvious difference in education, etc. Your argument doesn't mean at all that it is not possible for men to find a ground where they can work together. Implying that, because people have different culture, they cannot work together, is what we call cultural relativism. Because there is no universal moral code humans Can't work together unless there are power stuctures (nationstates, organized religions, companies, angry mobs, etc.) in place. Women and men work together in power structures. (more complicated ones are rquired the more women/men you have working together) | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:28 HotShizz wrote: edit: the main point goes back to the thread of the bully does what he wants too, etc etc... "the bully" that is being demonized is a nation of 300 - 400 million individuals... Don't demonize a bunch of individuals or bash a country, they're just people like you or me. I fail to see how it's demonizing anyone. It's a description of how the US is acting (currently and more or less since the end of WW2) on the world stage. | ||
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epicopter
Canada177 Posts
And for all the nerds here they invented the flash drive, created the dual-core processor and the Sandybridge processor To me it's logical to support them. But I guess all you North Americans that think it was horrible that Palestine lost its land to the Israelis also think that North America should become a Native American state? | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 15 2011 07:11 Krikkitone wrote: Because there is no universal moral code humans Can't work together unless there are power stuctures (nationstates, organized religions, companies, angry mobs, etc.) in place. Women and men work together in power structures. (more complicated ones are rquired the more women/men you have working together) So you think human with the same moral can work together without power structure ? A moral code is a "power structure". Your own identity and origins is a set of allegeances. Power is everywhere, it's not a bad thing. On November 15 2011 10:26 epicopter wrote: Isreal is one of the foremost leading countries in medical and technological research, they could be the ones to cure cancer some day. They also develop and manufacture advanced medical equipment and ship them out around the world. And for all the nerds here they invented the flash drive, created the dual-core processor and the Sandybridge processor To me it's logical to support them. But I guess all you North Americans that think it was horrible that Palestine lost its land to the Israelis also think that North America should become a Native American state? The nazi were also really good in terms of technology, but USA were against them, do you think they were wrong ? What's the point in talking about the technological achievements of Israel, it has nothing to do with the matters at hand. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On November 15 2011 10:26 epicopter wrote: Isreal is one of the foremost leading countries in medical and technological research, they could be the ones to cure cancer some day. They also develop and manufacture advanced medical equipment and ship them out around the world. And for all the nerds here they invented the flash drive, created the dual-core processor and the Sandybridge processor To me it's logical to support them. But I guess all you North Americans that think it was horrible that Palestine lost its land to the Israelis also think that North America should become a Native American state? This is a ridiculous position to take with a straw man thrown in. Perhaps the reason that Israel has been able to be so productive is due to the billions in aid they receive from the US. Money which could have produced those breakthroughs for US citizens. I don't get it, people seem to believe that Israel has a population that is just better than everyone else. Look at all this stuff they make, yeah it is impressive! How do they do it with such a small population? Funding my boys, funding supplied by US tax payers! All in all an irrelevant argument that has nothing to do with the validity of the claims of the palestinians. To use another strawman, if Mexico invented the internet, cured cancer, solved world hunger and created the most awesome band ever, would you allow them to take Texas? | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:10 WhiteDog wrote: Nobody ever said that there are no universel moral code (some ethnologue argue that but that's not the point). But, it doesn't mean that the humanity as a whole can't work together. Women and men work together sometime, despite obvious difference in education, etc. Your argument doesn't mean at all that it is not possible for men to find a ground where they can work together. Implying that, because people have different culture, they cannot work together, is what we call cultural relativism. The basis of realist international relations is that that there is no universal moral code between states. This is a very accepted viewpoint, but do not confuse this with nihilism/relativism. This is not a statement of ethical theory, arguing that morality does not have objective truths, but an international political viewpoint. These are not the same concepts. People can work together, but we're not talking about personal relations, but international relations, which function a lot closer to the Hobbesian model of anarchy, simply because there is no authority over states. Obviously there are areas where states work together, but the motives and reasons that encourage this are a major subject of debate in international relations theory, and a lot more complex than interpersonal relations. I'm not arguing for cultural relativism in the slightest, because (as I've brought up a lot in that shark-fin thread) it has a ton of problematic implications, and we probably agree it has significant flaws. | ||
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