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Stay on topic. I cannot put it more clearly then that. Derailments will be met with consequences. ~Nyovne |
On November 30 2012 23:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 23:53 Patate wrote:On November 30 2012 23:50 docvoc wrote:
What I don't think people are realizing right now is that as soon as palestine becomes a state, they are then subject to all the rules that apply to states. all the love from the media they used to have is going to be turned around because of war crimes. Everything they try to pin on Israel will be pinned on them for doing much, much worse. They have already racked up a history of war crimes against their own people. I have a feeling that as soon as this happens, things will get worse, not better. Pretty ironic that an American talks about war crimes commited by a country. I'm still wondering why you still believe this nonsense, but I forgive you.. the jewish media has its control over the American population. you know, it's pretty rude to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being brainwashed by "jewish media". not only is that rude, but it's also has hints of antisemitism and even further, you started it all with an ad hominem.
Oh yeah Anti-semitism.. Israel's accusations for anyone who opposes its crimes. Go away please, you annoy me.
Anyone denying the agenda of the Jews at the head of all the big media corporations are just fooling themselves.
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On November 30 2012 23:58 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 23:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 30 2012 23:53 Patate wrote:On November 30 2012 23:50 docvoc wrote:
What I don't think people are realizing right now is that as soon as palestine becomes a state, they are then subject to all the rules that apply to states. all the love from the media they used to have is going to be turned around because of war crimes. Everything they try to pin on Israel will be pinned on them for doing much, much worse. They have already racked up a history of war crimes against their own people. I have a feeling that as soon as this happens, things will get worse, not better. Pretty ironic that an American talks about war crimes commited by a country. I'm still wondering why you still believe this nonsense, but I forgive you.. the jewish media has its control over the American population. you know, it's pretty rude to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being brainwashed by "jewish media". not only is that rude, but it's also has hints of antisemitism and even further, you started it all with an ad hominem. Oh yeah Anti-semitism.. Israel's accusations for anyone who opposes its crimes. Go away please, you annoy me. Anyone denying the agenda of the Jews at the head of all the big media corporations are just fooling themselves.
well it is undeniable that propaganda spread by Nazi's and other antisemitic organizations usually focuses on a supposed "jewish control" of the western media. I actually doubt that you meant it in that way, so I'm not accusing you of antisemitism, just of using the very same racist, antisemitic propaganda that was used in persecutions against Jews during the entire last century.
and it is highly dishonest for you to accuse others of being brainwashed, yet balk at being told that your rhetoric is inflammatory and bordering on offensive.
whether "the Jews at the head of all the big media corporations" have an agenda or not is... kind of irrelevant to the fact that it is accusations like this which have been used, in the past, to whip up anti-Jewish fervor in support of pogroms. I'm not saying that you want your rhetoric to lead to those, but that's why we should be careful with what we say and how we say it.
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I can definitely see peace over there in the middle east....after a bloodbath.
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On December 01 2012 00:01 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 23:58 Patate wrote:On November 30 2012 23:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 30 2012 23:53 Patate wrote:On November 30 2012 23:50 docvoc wrote:
What I don't think people are realizing right now is that as soon as palestine becomes a state, they are then subject to all the rules that apply to states. all the love from the media they used to have is going to be turned around because of war crimes. Everything they try to pin on Israel will be pinned on them for doing much, much worse. They have already racked up a history of war crimes against their own people. I have a feeling that as soon as this happens, things will get worse, not better. Pretty ironic that an American talks about war crimes commited by a country. I'm still wondering why you still believe this nonsense, but I forgive you.. the jewish media has its control over the American population. you know, it's pretty rude to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being brainwashed by "jewish media". not only is that rude, but it's also has hints of antisemitism and even further, you started it all with an ad hominem. Oh yeah Anti-semitism.. Israel's accusations for anyone who opposes its crimes. Go away please, you annoy me. well it is undeniable that propaganda spread by Nazi's and other antisemitic organizations usually focuses on a supposed "jewish control" of the western media. I actually doubt that you meant it in that way, so I'm not accusing you of antisemitism, just of using the very same racist, antisemitic propaganda that was used in persecutions against Jews during the entire last century. and it is highly dishonest for you to accuse others of being brainwashed, yet balk at being told that your rhetoric is inflammatory and bordering on offensive.
Not sure why you mention Nazis here.. Being anti-Israel is not being a nazi. Now fuck off
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 30 2012 23:43 Perscienter wrote:
If this advances the rule of law, it will be a good thing.
The abstentions really piss me off. Every time a difficult, important decision has to be made, the powerful decide to abstain. Abstain, abstain, not my problem, abstain. It reminds of a school playground. Sometimes decisions have to be made quickly and yes, it can all backfire. DEAL WITH IT!
The abstaining thing happens for a variety of reasons. Its basically saying "we don't want to be responsible for this either way" say a resolution involving military action by a un state. Germany and other states will abstain so that they arn't forced then by their vote to support militarily.
This guy is really weird and I'm only 10 minutes in. How did Isreal take over 80% of the country and destroy all these towns? Beacuse they won and didn't just let the arab forces just sit in their country? The Palestinians have never had a military force there was nothing on the other side! Because all the other arab states used their militaries to attack isreal? And then decided to ocupy the gaza strip and west bank didn't give them any civil rights and treated them as second class citizens. But thats totaly okay because it wasn't Isreal that did this to us it was our friendly brothers that never gave us any civil rights. He doesn't really transition solidly from when he talked about the first war and the second war. He said the "myth" was that the arabs attacked and Isreal won. But he never says why thats a myth or what actually happened. He talks about how the generals wanted more land and never talked about the strategic importance of the golan heights or the sinai peninsula. Then he makes this crazy point about "they did this all in 6 days?" Its modern times war doesn't last very long anymore when you can drive over all the land you are going to take in a few hours.
I'm at 20 minutes does it get any better after this?
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On December 01 2012 00:02 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 00:01 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 30 2012 23:58 Patate wrote:On November 30 2012 23:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 30 2012 23:53 Patate wrote:On November 30 2012 23:50 docvoc wrote:
What I don't think people are realizing right now is that as soon as palestine becomes a state, they are then subject to all the rules that apply to states. all the love from the media they used to have is going to be turned around because of war crimes. Everything they try to pin on Israel will be pinned on them for doing much, much worse. They have already racked up a history of war crimes against their own people. I have a feeling that as soon as this happens, things will get worse, not better. Pretty ironic that an American talks about war crimes commited by a country. I'm still wondering why you still believe this nonsense, but I forgive you.. the jewish media has its control over the American population. you know, it's pretty rude to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being brainwashed by "jewish media". not only is that rude, but it's also has hints of antisemitism and even further, you started it all with an ad hominem. Oh yeah Anti-semitism.. Israel's accusations for anyone who opposes its crimes. Go away please, you annoy me. well it is undeniable that propaganda spread by Nazi's and other antisemitic organizations usually focuses on a supposed "jewish control" of the western media. I actually doubt that you meant it in that way, so I'm not accusing you of antisemitism, just of using the very same racist, antisemitic propaganda that was used in persecutions against Jews during the entire last century. and it is highly dishonest for you to accuse others of being brainwashed, yet balk at being told that your rhetoric is inflammatory and bordering on offensive. Not sure why you mention Nazis here.. Being anti-Israel is not being a nazi. Now fuck off
I didn't call you a Nazi, in fact I have gone through great lengths to say that you clearly aren't. but you ARE using Nazi talking points, whether you like it or not. (rather, talking points used, and conceived, by the Nazi's and other antisemitic organizations)
being anti-Israel is fine, but accusing the world Jewry of controlling the media for some nefarious purpose is.... well that isn't fine. that's conspiratorial and dangerous.
(usually I wouldn't bring up Nazi's, but it is pertinent here as a lot of anti-Jewish propaganda which has subsequently become anti-Israeli propaganda, was actually mainly brought into this century by the Nazi propaganda machine.)
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On December 01 2012 00:02 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 00:01 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 30 2012 23:58 Patate wrote:On November 30 2012 23:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 30 2012 23:53 Patate wrote:On November 30 2012 23:50 docvoc wrote:
What I don't think people are realizing right now is that as soon as palestine becomes a state, they are then subject to all the rules that apply to states. all the love from the media they used to have is going to be turned around because of war crimes. Everything they try to pin on Israel will be pinned on them for doing much, much worse. They have already racked up a history of war crimes against their own people. I have a feeling that as soon as this happens, things will get worse, not better. Pretty ironic that an American talks about war crimes commited by a country. I'm still wondering why you still believe this nonsense, but I forgive you.. the jewish media has its control over the American population. you know, it's pretty rude to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being brainwashed by "jewish media". not only is that rude, but it's also has hints of antisemitism and even further, you started it all with an ad hominem. Oh yeah Anti-semitism.. Israel's accusations for anyone who opposes its crimes. Go away please, you annoy me. well it is undeniable that propaganda spread by Nazi's and other antisemitic organizations usually focuses on a supposed "jewish control" of the western media. I actually doubt that you meant it in that way, so I'm not accusing you of antisemitism, just of using the very same racist, antisemitic propaganda that was used in persecutions against Jews during the entire last century. and it is highly dishonest for you to accuse others of being brainwashed, yet balk at being told that your rhetoric is inflammatory and bordering on offensive. Not sure why you mention Nazis here.. Being anti-Israel is not being a nazi. Now fuck off
Beacuse there are neo nazi elements that spread propaganda that are anti jewish and Isreal? I don't know if its in Canada or not but there are fringe groups that wildly oppose Isreal and Spread propaganda about a "jewish controled media" all the time. thats Where he probably heard your lines about it from.
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I think it's funny how often people simply pick a side in this conflict instead of just opposing both factions for their crimes and misdeeds. They are both to blame.
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On November 30 2012 22:48 Goozen wrote:
The only solution can be reached between the 2 sides, nothing else will work.
The motion acknowledges the 1967 Palestine borders, so they will most likely bring to the ICC charges against Israel for occupying these regions.
It is because of this occupation that EU countries like Britain, France, Germany, voted (or abstained) with Palestine.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/how-israel-lost-europe-s-support.premium-1.481544
A summit meeting between the governments of Israel and Germany is scheduled for next week in Berlin. Presumably the disagreement concerning the vote at the UN will cast a shadow on the discussions. Ever since Netanyahu became prime minister four years ago, his relations with Merkel have been very strained. Numerous times Merkel felt Netanyahu did not keep promises he had made to her, and she was especially angry at the continuation of the construction in the settlements.
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Why should every political discussion end up with people calling each other neonazis or ignorant or something insulting. There is already a lot to talk about these sensitive issues without resorting to off topic side debates. I hope we can all be mature and just discuss with each other with the right amount of respect and facts.
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On December 01 2012 00:02 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 23:43 Perscienter wrote:
If this advances the rule of law, it will be a good thing.
The abstentions really piss me off. Every time a difficult, important decision has to be made, the powerful decide to abstain. Abstain, abstain, not my problem, abstain. It reminds of a school playground. Sometimes decisions have to be made quickly and yes, it can all backfire. DEAL WITH IT! The abstaining thing happens for a variety of reasons. Its basically saying "we don't want to be responsible for this either way" say a resolution involving military action by a un state. Germany and other states will abstain so that they arn't forced then by their vote to support militarily. This guy is really weird and I'm only 10 minutes in. How did Isreal take over 80% of the country and destroy all these towns? Beacuse they won and didn't just let the arab forces just sit in their country? The Palestinians have never had a military force there was nothing on the other side! Because all the other arab states used their militaries to attack isreal? And then decided to ocupy the gaza strip and west bank didn't give them any civil rights and treated them as second class citizens. But thats totaly okay because it wasn't Isreal that did this to us it was our friendly brothers that never gave us any civil rights. He doesn't really transition solidly from when he talked about the first war and the second war. He said the "myth" was that the arabs attacked and Isreal won. But he never says why thats a myth or what actually happened. He talks about how the generals wanted more land and never talked about the strategic importance of the golan heights or the sinai peninsula. Then he makes this crazy point about "they did this all in 6 days?" Its modern times war doesn't last very long anymore when you can drive over all the land you are going to take in a few hours. I'm at 20 minutes does it get any better after this?
To be honest, for a lot of nations it's a lot easier than this. Almost every nation would agree that an official status for Palestine is necessary and will only help negotiations.
The nations that abstained included. However, rather than voting yes, they went for something along "We're 100% pro-Palestine, but we don't want to piss of the USA. Abstain!".
The only countries that did want to deny Palestina this status are the United States, Israel, Canada, the Czech Republic, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Panama.
USA, Israel are kind of obvious, the last 5 can barely be seen as independent nations, they didn't even dare abstain, Czech Republic has always been supplying arms to Israel.
But Canada? Can anyone who knows Canada explain?
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Canada is Americas closest bro-nation. We do SO much trade and they're trying to get an oil pipeline though america so they don't want to disturb that process at all.
Ie they found a lot more oil in canada and they want to ship it though america and plug it into a tax free port down in texas. That whole NA will be energy independent in a decade or so will rely on this deal and thus really want it though.
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On December 01 2012 00:13 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 00:02 Sermokala wrote:On November 30 2012 23:43 Perscienter wrote:
If this advances the rule of law, it will be a good thing.
The abstentions really piss me off. Every time a difficult, important decision has to be made, the powerful decide to abstain. Abstain, abstain, not my problem, abstain. It reminds of a school playground. Sometimes decisions have to be made quickly and yes, it can all backfire. DEAL WITH IT! The abstaining thing happens for a variety of reasons. Its basically saying "we don't want to be responsible for this either way" say a resolution involving military action by a un state. Germany and other states will abstain so that they arn't forced then by their vote to support militarily. This guy is really weird and I'm only 10 minutes in. How did Isreal take over 80% of the country and destroy all these towns? Beacuse they won and didn't just let the arab forces just sit in their country? The Palestinians have never had a military force there was nothing on the other side! Because all the other arab states used their militaries to attack isreal? And then decided to ocupy the gaza strip and west bank didn't give them any civil rights and treated them as second class citizens. But thats totaly okay because it wasn't Isreal that did this to us it was our friendly brothers that never gave us any civil rights. He doesn't really transition solidly from when he talked about the first war and the second war. He said the "myth" was that the arabs attacked and Isreal won. But he never says why thats a myth or what actually happened. He talks about how the generals wanted more land and never talked about the strategic importance of the golan heights or the sinai peninsula. Then he makes this crazy point about "they did this all in 6 days?" Its modern times war doesn't last very long anymore when you can drive over all the land you are going to take in a few hours. I'm at 20 minutes does it get any better after this? To be honest, for a lot of nations it's a lot easier than this. Almost every nation would agree that an official status for Palestine is necessary and will only help negotiations. The nations that abstained included. However, rather than voting yes, they went for something along "We're 100% pro-Palestine, but we don't want to piss of the USA. Abstain!". The only countries that did want to deny Palestina this status are the United States, Israel, Canada, the Czech Republic, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Panama. USA, Israel are kind of obvious, the last 5 can barely be seen as independent nations, they didn't even dare abstain, Czech Republic has always been supplying arms to Israel. But Canada? Can anyone who knows Canada explain?
Their Prime Minister (Harper) is very pro Israel.
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Regardless of who controls it, I have very rarely heard American media criticize Israel's actions over the years, even among the more liberal outlets. Conspiracy theories aside, it is not difficult to accuse them of extreme bias in this case.
When somebody claims that a country being accepted by the UN will somehow lead to escalation and mass murder, it's also not difficult to question the credibility of one's sources and why he believes in what they say. Being accepted into UN is not an act of aggression against anyone, except those who believe that the state in question should not exist at all (which would be a very difficult position to justify from a rational standpoint).
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On December 01 2012 00:13 Passion wrote:
But Canada? Can anyone who knows Canada explain?
Our foreign affairs minister says Canada staunchly supports bilateral negotiations, rather than the statehood path Palestine has chosen, because they can obviously then goto the ICC and "cause all kinds of trouble".
Which is pretty stupid and imo does not reflect the opinions of our country as a whole. They could very well have abstained from the vote, but I'm guessing they want to send a message that they support the US.
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On December 01 2012 00:19 Talin wrote:
Regardless of who controls it, I have very rarely heard American media criticize Israel's actions over the years, even among the more liberal outlets. Conspiracy theories aside, it is not difficult to accuse them of extreme bias in this case.
When somebody claims that a country being accepted by the UN will somehow lead to escalation and mass murder, it's also not difficult to question the credibility of one's sources and why he believes in what they say. Being accepted into UN is not an act of aggression against anyone, except those who believe that the state in question should not exist at all (which would be a very difficult position to justify from a rational standpoint).
the problem is that palestine if accepted to statehood will not recognize Isreal as a state and would thus look down on Isreal in negotiations. Its not really a hard point to understand if you would just look at it instead of just seeing it on a news headline like a lot of people get their news these days.
and again its beacuse of the oil pipeline that canada wants though america not beacuse of harper or his conservative government.
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My personal view is that excluding palestine even this small right is disgusting... Im glad our government changed its mind on this issue this time, not that it would have mattered. The simple matter is that israel is growing and taking palestinian land and this is one small step towards stopping that, which obviously usa, israel &co don't like. Getting somewhat accepted into the UN can't be a bad start for a two state solution, where both are in the UN completely and have their own sovereignty.
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On December 01 2012 00:22 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 00:19 Talin wrote:
Regardless of who controls it, I have very rarely heard American media criticize Israel's actions over the years, even among the more liberal outlets. Conspiracy theories aside, it is not difficult to accuse them of extreme bias in this case.
When somebody claims that a country being accepted by the UN will somehow lead to escalation and mass murder, it's also not difficult to question the credibility of one's sources and why he believes in what they say. Being accepted into UN is not an act of aggression against anyone, except those who believe that the state in question should not exist at all (which would be a very difficult position to justify from a rational standpoint). the problem is that palestine if accepted to statehood will not recognize Isreal as a state and would thus look down on Isreal in negotiations. Its not really a hard point to understand if you would just look at it instead of just seeing it on a news headline like a lot of people get their news these days.
Israel is already a full member of the UN. From a neutral standpoint, Palestine being accepted only makes the playing field more even (but still not quite even) in that particular regard.
I don't think anybody is trying to argue against the fact that it will make Israel's position in the negotiations slightly more difficult.
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On December 01 2012 00:22 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 00:19 Talin wrote:
Regardless of who controls it, I have very rarely heard American media criticize Israel's actions over the years, even among the more liberal outlets. Conspiracy theories aside, it is not difficult to accuse them of extreme bias in this case.
When somebody claims that a country being accepted by the UN will somehow lead to escalation and mass murder, it's also not difficult to question the credibility of one's sources and why he believes in what they say. Being accepted into UN is not an act of aggression against anyone, except those who believe that the state in question should not exist at all (which would be a very difficult position to justify from a rational standpoint). the problem is that palestine if accepted to statehood will not recognize Isreal as a state and would thus look down on Isreal in negotiations. Its not really a hard point to understand if you would just look at it instead of just seeing it on a news headline like a lot of people get their news these days. and again its beacuse of the oil pipeline that canada wants though america not beacuse of harper or his conservative government.
What? How does Palestine being recognized as a state mean they won't recognize Israel as a state? The UN recognizes Israel as a state. If the Palestinians want to address their grievances in the UN and ICC, then they would have to recognize Israel as a state.
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On December 01 2012 00:22 Sermokala wrote:
will not recognize Isreal as a state and would thus look down on Isreal in negotiations.
The hell?
Also, you could very well just reverse palestine and israel in that sentence and ... you have the current political situation!
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EPT
