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On October 28 2011 22:04 redviper wrote:The worst part of it, even more than the homophobic bullshit, is the people who just stood around and did nothing. Its not that they should be punished, but its still such a sad testimony on the apathy of people. In so many ways this reminds me of the publicly spectated gang rape in california. Also, I hope someone forces the school to take more concrete action. I can't imagine why anyone would question that this is assault and deserves a full prosecution. Bad things happen all over the world, to all sorts of people. Doesn't mean that we should ignore it and not punish it. Show nested quote +OMG where is the world going?
The kids are beating each other since the world is populated with humans. What so wrong?
Kids stuff beating and etc is absolutely normal imo.
The gay thing is a lot exaggerated. In subsharan africa, in every warzone you can think of, children are often brutally raped and then killed. This has been going on since the world is populated with humans. Does that mean that if a little girl was brutally raped and killed in your school, its not a big deal and the perpetrator should get a 3 days suspension? In Congo and in Liberia (two examples I have worked with) teenagers are forced to become child soldiers. This has been going for ages, since the world is populated with humans. So if we take you and force you to serve in a military its not a problem? You can try to hide your particular brand of homophobia under this veneer of "oh but it happens to everyone", but your bigotry is quite evident.
I'm glad to see you have a genuine interest in the well-being of Africa, but you're being off-topic posting about it in this thread.
Allow me to direct you here, instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=263131
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On October 28 2011 22:12 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:04 turdburgler wrote:On October 28 2011 21:59 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 21:55 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 21:45 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 20:30 Scrimpton wrote:
If the kid wasn't gay this wouldnt have a thread.
People get beaten all the time for no reason, they are less important because they aren't in some minority? But he was gay. And you're greatly deluding yourself if you think gay kids getting creamed at school like this doesn't happen regularly. It does, and it's a serious issue. Basically, two things: 1) A physical assault like this is fucking horrible, no matter what kid it was done to 2) Gay kids at school are the victims of far more bullying in school than straight kids, so yes, it does matter that he's gay But it doesn't matter And you're greatly deluding yourself if straight kids getting creamed at school doesn't happen regularly, and like wise it's a serious issue 1)Yes getting attacked is pretty horrible 2)Fat kids, Kids of different race, nerds, geeks, are victims to similar bullying school compared gay kids, so no, don't consider gay on a special tier, they're not that special. What I don't understand, gays want equality with us straights, and we don't mind that, so don't make each case into a special case because the victim is gay, being gay doesn't make them more special than the rest of us Don't be dumb. My point 1 directly addressed that anyone getting creamed at school is a bad thing and serious. The point is gays get proportionately massively more bullying than straight kids. Is the same true of black kids or whatever? Yes, also awful. But the point in hand is that the kid is gay and gays get an extremely tough time of it in schools. you are saying more gay kids get beaten up like its even relevent, its not. more women get raped than men, but is raping a guy any better or worse? no its just rape, its all bad. by singling out the bully by saying "what you did was more bad because the victim was gay" we are supporting the notion that gay people are different to straight people, and that they need to be treated differently. we are agreeing with the bullys madness if not his method. Gay kids ARE different, because they get picked on disproportionately. Do we wish this wasn't the case? Yes. If, in a world that wasn't this one currently, gays don't get bullied all the time and in this instance the kid just HAPPENED to be gay, I'd completely agree with you. But we live in a world where gay kids do get picked on disproportionately, and it doesn't help to sweep it under the mat by saying "they want equality, this should be treated like nothing else", because gay kids DO get treated differently, all around the world. It isn't irrelevant that he's gay, because gay bullying is a specific and awful problem. Just take a look at any of the teen suicide rates. To all the gays who attempt/commit suicide because of their mistreatment by their peers, this is a very serious issue. Unless you're suggesting that vastly higher suicide rates aren't something we should be looking at, because gays are no different.
Gays and straights get bullied alike,
Punish the offense for what it is
don't make special case for gay victim
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 28 2011 22:14 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:12 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 22:04 turdburgler wrote:On October 28 2011 21:59 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 21:55 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 21:45 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 20:30 Scrimpton wrote:
If the kid wasn't gay this wouldnt have a thread.
People get beaten all the time for no reason, they are less important because they aren't in some minority? But he was gay. And you're greatly deluding yourself if you think gay kids getting creamed at school like this doesn't happen regularly. It does, and it's a serious issue. Basically, two things: 1) A physical assault like this is fucking horrible, no matter what kid it was done to 2) Gay kids at school are the victims of far more bullying in school than straight kids, so yes, it does matter that he's gay But it doesn't matter And you're greatly deluding yourself if straight kids getting creamed at school doesn't happen regularly, and like wise it's a serious issue 1)Yes getting attacked is pretty horrible 2)Fat kids, Kids of different race, nerds, geeks, are victims to similar bullying school compared gay kids, so no, don't consider gay on a special tier, they're not that special. What I don't understand, gays want equality with us straights, and we don't mind that, so don't make each case into a special case because the victim is gay, being gay doesn't make them more special than the rest of us Don't be dumb. My point 1 directly addressed that anyone getting creamed at school is a bad thing and serious. The point is gays get proportionately massively more bullying than straight kids. Is the same true of black kids or whatever? Yes, also awful. But the point in hand is that the kid is gay and gays get an extremely tough time of it in schools. you are saying more gay kids get beaten up like its even relevent, its not. more women get raped than men, but is raping a guy any better or worse? no its just rape, its all bad. by singling out the bully by saying "what you did was more bad because the victim was gay" we are supporting the notion that gay people are different to straight people, and that they need to be treated differently. we are agreeing with the bullys madness if not his method. Gay kids ARE different, because they get picked on disproportionately. Do we wish this wasn't the case? Yes. If, in a world that wasn't this one currently, gays don't get bullied all the time and in this instance the kid just HAPPENED to be gay, I'd completely agree with you. But we live in a world where gay kids do get picked on disproportionately, and it doesn't help to sweep it under the mat by saying "they want equality, this should be treated like nothing else", because gay kids DO get treated differently, all around the world. It isn't irrelevant that he's gay, because gay bullying is a specific and awful problem. Just take a look at any of the teen suicide rates. To all the gays who attempt/commit suicide because of their mistreatment by their peers, this is a very serious issue. Unless you're suggesting that vastly higher suicide rates aren't something we should be looking at, because gays are no different. Gays and straights get bullied alike, Punish the offense for what it is don't make special case for gay victim
They get bullied alike, but gays suffer it 10x more. That's the difference. Of course I'm pulling 10x out of my arse, but it is massively, massively more.
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teen suicide rates have nothing to do with this at all. how you choose to deal with pain is nothing to do with this discussion, unless you are honestly trying to say that because gays cant handle it they need to be protected from the wind? is that really the point you are trying to make? that gays are pansies? reaaalllyyy?
the rest of your argument makes no logical sense. you want special treatment but you want to be the same? ive already rebuked everything you just said on this page alone and all last night. you are basically arguing that its not bullying thats bad, its bullying people like 'you' thats bad, and thats a bullshit argument that needs to stop right here. the more you single yourself out (im assuming your gay who knows, who cares) the more you make yourself a target.
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On October 28 2011 22:08 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:03 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 21:59 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 21:55 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 21:45 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 20:30 Scrimpton wrote:
If the kid wasn't gay this wouldnt have a thread.
People get beaten all the time for no reason, they are less important because they aren't in some minority? But he was gay. And you're greatly deluding yourself if you think gay kids getting creamed at school like this doesn't happen regularly. It does, and it's a serious issue. Basically, two things: 1) A physical assault like this is fucking horrible, no matter what kid it was done to 2) Gay kids at school are the victims of far more bullying in school than straight kids, so yes, it does matter that he's gay But it doesn't matter And you're greatly deluding yourself if straight kids getting creamed at school doesn't happen regularly, and like wise it's a serious issue 1)Yes getting attacked is pretty horrible 2)Fat kids, Kids of different race, nerds, geeks, are victims to similar bullying school compared gay kids, so no, don't consider gay on a special tier, they're not that special. What I don't understand, gays want equality with us straights, and we don't mind that, so don't make each case into a special case because the victim is gay, being gay doesn't make them more special than the rest of us Don't be dumb. My point 1 directly addressed that anyone getting creamed at school is a bad thing and serious. The point is gays get proportionately massively more bullying than straight kids. Is the same true of black kids or whatever? Yes, also awful. But the point in hand is that the kid is gay and gays get an extremely tough time of it in schools. lol don't raise the gays on a silver platter, kids get bullied it sucks, terrible, horrific things happen. But think to yourself, would it be newsworthy if the victim wasn't gay? School bullying, must be solved, but if the gays want equality they shouldn't always make themselves "special cases" What bullshit is this? Its assault because of the actions and its a hate crime because of the motivation. So you think racial equality means that if a race based hate crime happens we should ignore it because black people (or chinese people since you are from china) want equality so they shouldn't always make themselves special cases? Seriously what the heck is wrong with people like you. Try to put yourself in the victims shoes for a few minutes.
Ignore him, he is a known troll.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I've not argued that at all. Can you not read?
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On October 28 2011 22:12 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:04 redviper wrote:The worst part of it, even more than the homophobic bullshit, is the people who just stood around and did nothing. Its not that they should be punished, but its still such a sad testimony on the apathy of people. In so many ways this reminds me of the publicly spectated gang rape in california. Also, I hope someone forces the school to take more concrete action. I can't imagine why anyone would question that this is assault and deserves a full prosecution. Bad things happen all over the world, to all sorts of people. Doesn't mean that we should ignore it and not punish it. OMG where is the world going?
The kids are beating each other since the world is populated with humans. What so wrong?
Kids stuff beating and etc is absolutely normal imo.
The gay thing is a lot exaggerated. In subsharan africa, in every warzone you can think of, children are often brutally raped and then killed. This has been going on since the world is populated with humans. Does that mean that if a little girl was brutally raped and killed in your school, its not a big deal and the perpetrator should get a 3 days suspension? In Congo and in Liberia (two examples I have worked with) teenagers are forced to become child soldiers. This has been going for ages, since the world is populated with humans. So if we take you and force you to serve in a military its not a problem? You can try to hide your particular brand of homophobia under this veneer of "oh but it happens to everyone", but your bigotry is quite evident. I'm glad to see you have a genuine interest in the well-being of Africa, but you're being off-topic posting about it in this thread. Allow me to direct you here, instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=263131
?? Ofcourse I have a genuine interest in the well-being of Africa, and I also have a geniune interest in protecting gay children from homophobic asswipes.
How is that relevant here though? I was pointing out the example that the argument that bad things happen does not in anyway mitigate the fact that the bully needs to have hate crime charges thrown at him.
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On October 28 2011 22:15 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:14 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 22:12 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 22:04 turdburgler wrote:On October 28 2011 21:59 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 21:55 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 21:45 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 20:30 Scrimpton wrote:
If the kid wasn't gay this wouldnt have a thread.
People get beaten all the time for no reason, they are less important because they aren't in some minority? But he was gay. And you're greatly deluding yourself if you think gay kids getting creamed at school like this doesn't happen regularly. It does, and it's a serious issue. Basically, two things: 1) A physical assault like this is fucking horrible, no matter what kid it was done to 2) Gay kids at school are the victims of far more bullying in school than straight kids, so yes, it does matter that he's gay But it doesn't matter And you're greatly deluding yourself if straight kids getting creamed at school doesn't happen regularly, and like wise it's a serious issue 1)Yes getting attacked is pretty horrible 2)Fat kids, Kids of different race, nerds, geeks, are victims to similar bullying school compared gay kids, so no, don't consider gay on a special tier, they're not that special. What I don't understand, gays want equality with us straights, and we don't mind that, so don't make each case into a special case because the victim is gay, being gay doesn't make them more special than the rest of us Don't be dumb. My point 1 directly addressed that anyone getting creamed at school is a bad thing and serious. The point is gays get proportionately massively more bullying than straight kids. Is the same true of black kids or whatever? Yes, also awful. But the point in hand is that the kid is gay and gays get an extremely tough time of it in schools. you are saying more gay kids get beaten up like its even relevent, its not. more women get raped than men, but is raping a guy any better or worse? no its just rape, its all bad. by singling out the bully by saying "what you did was more bad because the victim was gay" we are supporting the notion that gay people are different to straight people, and that they need to be treated differently. we are agreeing with the bullys madness if not his method. Gay kids ARE different, because they get picked on disproportionately. Do we wish this wasn't the case? Yes. If, in a world that wasn't this one currently, gays don't get bullied all the time and in this instance the kid just HAPPENED to be gay, I'd completely agree with you. But we live in a world where gay kids do get picked on disproportionately, and it doesn't help to sweep it under the mat by saying "they want equality, this should be treated like nothing else", because gay kids DO get treated differently, all around the world. It isn't irrelevant that he's gay, because gay bullying is a specific and awful problem. Just take a look at any of the teen suicide rates. To all the gays who attempt/commit suicide because of their mistreatment by their peers, this is a very serious issue. Unless you're suggesting that vastly higher suicide rates aren't something we should be looking at, because gays are no different. Gays and straights get bullied alike, Punish the offense for what it is don't make special case for gay victim They get bullied alike, but gays suffer it 10x more. That's the difference. Of course I'm pulling 10x out of my arse, but it is massively, massively more.
prove to me that a gay suffers any different to a fat/ginger/short/tall/skinny/white/black/latino kid. and even if they do, if you pinch my arm and i break down crying and having a fit, no one would be saying, hey that guy needs to go to jail, look at the reaction he caused in that straight white guy.
now dont take my words out of context, im not saying people shouldnt feel bad or upset or hurt when they are attacked, what im saying is their reaction to getting attacked should have no baring on the punishment for the perpetrator. it just doesnt make sense
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On October 28 2011 22:16 turdburgler wrote:
teen suicide rates have nothing to do with this at all. how you choose to deal with pain is nothing to do with this discussion, unless you are honestly trying to say that because gays cant handle it they need to be protected from the wind? is that really the point you are trying to make? that gays are pansies? reaaalllyyy?
the rest of your argument makes no logical sense. you want special treatment but you want to be the same? ive already rebuked everything you just said on this page alone and all last night. you are basically arguing that its not bullying thats bad, its bullying people like 'you' thats bad, and thats a bullshit argument that needs to stop right here. the more you single yourself out (im assuming your gay who knows, who cares) the more you make yourself a target.
Bullying is bad.
Homophobia is also bad.
Together they are worse. How can this still be argued is frankly beyond my ken.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
turdburgler, I'm not sure what your point is, I'm not even suggesting a different punishment for the perpetrator, this is flat out assault no matter the victim.
What I'm saying is that if you're gay, your chances of getting bullied/attacked goes up by orders of magnitude, so it doesn't make sense to just ignore his sexual orientation.
I'm also not sure how you managed to jump from "gays get bullied, ostracised and attacked and therefore attempt suicide far more often" to "gays are pansies".
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This is not just a school fight, which we all had when we were kids. You argue, and then you fight a bit and then it's over. This is the deliberate beating of a kid who did not do anything to provoke this (bullying or beating other kids up). It's just assault.
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On October 28 2011 22:15 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:14 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 22:12 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 22:04 turdburgler wrote:On October 28 2011 21:59 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 21:55 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 21:45 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 20:30 Scrimpton wrote:
If the kid wasn't gay this wouldnt have a thread.
People get beaten all the time for no reason, they are less important because they aren't in some minority? But he was gay. And you're greatly deluding yourself if you think gay kids getting creamed at school like this doesn't happen regularly. It does, and it's a serious issue. Basically, two things: 1) A physical assault like this is fucking horrible, no matter what kid it was done to 2) Gay kids at school are the victims of far more bullying in school than straight kids, so yes, it does matter that he's gay But it doesn't matter And you're greatly deluding yourself if straight kids getting creamed at school doesn't happen regularly, and like wise it's a serious issue 1)Yes getting attacked is pretty horrible 2)Fat kids, Kids of different race, nerds, geeks, are victims to similar bullying school compared gay kids, so no, don't consider gay on a special tier, they're not that special. What I don't understand, gays want equality with us straights, and we don't mind that, so don't make each case into a special case because the victim is gay, being gay doesn't make them more special than the rest of us Don't be dumb. My point 1 directly addressed that anyone getting creamed at school is a bad thing and serious. The point is gays get proportionately massively more bullying than straight kids. Is the same true of black kids or whatever? Yes, also awful. But the point in hand is that the kid is gay and gays get an extremely tough time of it in schools. you are saying more gay kids get beaten up like its even relevent, its not. more women get raped than men, but is raping a guy any better or worse? no its just rape, its all bad. by singling out the bully by saying "what you did was more bad because the victim was gay" we are supporting the notion that gay people are different to straight people, and that they need to be treated differently. we are agreeing with the bullys madness if not his method. Gay kids ARE different, because they get picked on disproportionately. Do we wish this wasn't the case? Yes. If, in a world that wasn't this one currently, gays don't get bullied all the time and in this instance the kid just HAPPENED to be gay, I'd completely agree with you. But we live in a world where gay kids do get picked on disproportionately, and it doesn't help to sweep it under the mat by saying "they want equality, this should be treated like nothing else", because gay kids DO get treated differently, all around the world. It isn't irrelevant that he's gay, because gay bullying is a specific and awful problem. Just take a look at any of the teen suicide rates. To all the gays who attempt/commit suicide because of their mistreatment by their peers, this is a very serious issue. Unless you're suggesting that vastly higher suicide rates aren't something we should be looking at, because gays are no different. Gays and straights get bullied alike, Punish the offense for what it is don't make special case for gay victim They get bullied alike, but gays suffer it 10x more. That's the difference. Of course I'm pulling 10x out of my arse, but it is massively, massively more.
That's simply not true.
There are plenty of straight kids who get bullied just as badly as gay kids, probably more seeing how there's so many straight kids in the first place. Yes, gay people get picked on disproportionally and likely have a higher rate of being bullied then straight people. That is however not at all relevant.
Point he is making that the punishment should fit the crime. Beating up a straight kid in a similar fashion should yield a similar punishment, raping a man should be equal to raping a woman in terms of sentencing and shooting a black person is in no way worse or better then shooting a white person.
Prosecuting someone for what they're thinking at the time of the act is not the way to go about this, simply because in every situation involving bullying, rape and most murders there is an absolute contempt for the victim to the point where the perpetrator feels he/she deserves it. Next to that, do you want to tell someone that actually got his face smashed in instead of a chipped tooth and a concussion that the guy that did that to him deserves a lesser punishment then this guy just because he isn't gay?
Not to mention that there is such a thing as freedom of thought. I am allowed to think whatever I want about gay/black/white/asian people, but as long as I don't act (in the broadest sense of the word) on those fucked up beliefs there is no problem for society as a whole.
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On October 28 2011 22:18 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:12 RoosterSamurai wrote:On October 28 2011 22:04 redviper wrote:The worst part of it, even more than the homophobic bullshit, is the people who just stood around and did nothing. Its not that they should be punished, but its still such a sad testimony on the apathy of people. In so many ways this reminds me of the publicly spectated gang rape in california. Also, I hope someone forces the school to take more concrete action. I can't imagine why anyone would question that this is assault and deserves a full prosecution. Bad things happen all over the world, to all sorts of people. Doesn't mean that we should ignore it and not punish it. OMG where is the world going?
The kids are beating each other since the world is populated with humans. What so wrong?
Kids stuff beating and etc is absolutely normal imo.
The gay thing is a lot exaggerated. In subsharan africa, in every warzone you can think of, children are often brutally raped and then killed. This has been going on since the world is populated with humans. Does that mean that if a little girl was brutally raped and killed in your school, its not a big deal and the perpetrator should get a 3 days suspension? In Congo and in Liberia (two examples I have worked with) teenagers are forced to become child soldiers. This has been going for ages, since the world is populated with humans. So if we take you and force you to serve in a military its not a problem? You can try to hide your particular brand of homophobia under this veneer of "oh but it happens to everyone", but your bigotry is quite evident. I'm glad to see you have a genuine interest in the well-being of Africa, but you're being off-topic posting about it in this thread. Allow me to direct you here, instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=263131 ?? Ofcourse I have a genuine interest in the well-being of Africa, and I also have a geniune interest in protecting gay children from homophobic asswipes. How is that relevant here though? I was pointing out the example that the argument that bad things happen does not in anyway mitigate the fact that the bully needs to have hate crime charges thrown at him.
Ok explain to me then, Why should someone be punished differently according to their victim's status?
Should a thief be more punished if he stole from a gay?
Should a rapist be more punished if he raped a gay?
Should a murderer be more punished if he killed a gay?
Now let's look at my perspective
The thief stole, he should be punished for thievery
The rapist raped, he should be punished for rape
The murderer killed, he should be punished for murder
you see the difference in our perspectives? You can't take into account the status of the victim when condemning a crime, you condemn a crime for what it is
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On October 28 2011 22:22 frontliner2 wrote:
This is not just a school fight, which we all had when we were kids. You argue, and then you fight a bit and then it's over. This is the deliberate beating of a kid who did not do anything to provoke this (bullying or beating other kids up). It's just assault.
Yep, I don't see how anyone can logically argue otherwise.
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On October 28 2011 22:21 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:16 turdburgler wrote:
teen suicide rates have nothing to do with this at all. how you choose to deal with pain is nothing to do with this discussion, unless you are honestly trying to say that because gays cant handle it they need to be protected from the wind? is that really the point you are trying to make? that gays are pansies? reaaalllyyy?
the rest of your argument makes no logical sense. you want special treatment but you want to be the same? ive already rebuked everything you just said on this page alone and all last night. you are basically arguing that its not bullying thats bad, its bullying people like 'you' thats bad, and thats a bullshit argument that needs to stop right here. the more you single yourself out (im assuming your gay who knows, who cares) the more you make yourself a target. Bullying is bad. Homophobia is also bad. Together they are worse. How can this still be argued is frankly beyond my ken.
so the logical conclusion is that if i say nice things to you while murdering you, its not so bad.
On October 28 2011 22:21 marvellosity wrote:
turdburgler, I'm not sure what your point is, I'm not even suggesting a different punishment for the perpetrator, this is flat out assault no matter the victim.
What I'm saying is that if you're gay, your chances of getting bullied/attacked goes up by orders of magnitude, so it doesn't make sense to just ignore his sexual orientation.
I'm also not sure how you managed to jump from "gays get bullied, ostracised and attacked and therefore attempt suicide far more often" to "gays are pansies".
i dont see the logical jump you make in the second paragraph at all. like i already said, by pointing out his gayness as being relevent, you are supporting the bullies idea that gay people are different. if you want the people to see people as all equal you have to treat them equally yourself
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On October 28 2011 22:18 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:15 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 22:14 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 22:12 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 22:04 turdburgler wrote:On October 28 2011 21:59 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 21:55 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 21:45 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 20:30 Scrimpton wrote:
If the kid wasn't gay this wouldnt have a thread.
People get beaten all the time for no reason, they are less important because they aren't in some minority? But he was gay. And you're greatly deluding yourself if you think gay kids getting creamed at school like this doesn't happen regularly. It does, and it's a serious issue. Basically, two things: 1) A physical assault like this is fucking horrible, no matter what kid it was done to 2) Gay kids at school are the victims of far more bullying in school than straight kids, so yes, it does matter that he's gay But it doesn't matter And you're greatly deluding yourself if straight kids getting creamed at school doesn't happen regularly, and like wise it's a serious issue 1)Yes getting attacked is pretty horrible 2)Fat kids, Kids of different race, nerds, geeks, are victims to similar bullying school compared gay kids, so no, don't consider gay on a special tier, they're not that special. What I don't understand, gays want equality with us straights, and we don't mind that, so don't make each case into a special case because the victim is gay, being gay doesn't make them more special than the rest of us Don't be dumb. My point 1 directly addressed that anyone getting creamed at school is a bad thing and serious. The point is gays get proportionately massively more bullying than straight kids. Is the same true of black kids or whatever? Yes, also awful. But the point in hand is that the kid is gay and gays get an extremely tough time of it in schools. you are saying more gay kids get beaten up like its even relevent, its not. more women get raped than men, but is raping a guy any better or worse? no its just rape, its all bad. by singling out the bully by saying "what you did was more bad because the victim was gay" we are supporting the notion that gay people are different to straight people, and that they need to be treated differently. we are agreeing with the bullys madness if not his method. Gay kids ARE different, because they get picked on disproportionately. Do we wish this wasn't the case? Yes. If, in a world that wasn't this one currently, gays don't get bullied all the time and in this instance the kid just HAPPENED to be gay, I'd completely agree with you. But we live in a world where gay kids do get picked on disproportionately, and it doesn't help to sweep it under the mat by saying "they want equality, this should be treated like nothing else", because gay kids DO get treated differently, all around the world. It isn't irrelevant that he's gay, because gay bullying is a specific and awful problem. Just take a look at any of the teen suicide rates. To all the gays who attempt/commit suicide because of their mistreatment by their peers, this is a very serious issue. Unless you're suggesting that vastly higher suicide rates aren't something we should be looking at, because gays are no different. Gays and straights get bullied alike, Punish the offense for what it is don't make special case for gay victim They get bullied alike, but gays suffer it 10x more. That's the difference. Of course I'm pulling 10x out of my arse, but it is massively, massively more. prove to me that a gay suffers any different to a fat/ginger/short/tall/skinny/white/black/latino kid. and even if they do, if you pinch my arm and i break down crying and having a fit, no one would be saying, hey that guy needs to go to jail, look at the reaction he caused in that straight white guy. now dont take my words out of context, im not saying people shouldnt feel bad or upset or hurt when they are attacked, what im saying is their reaction to getting attacked should have no baring on the punishment for the perpetrator. it just doesnt make sense
You probably don't understand the law. There is an attribute in the law where intentions impact the severity of the case, mens rea. For example (and I can only speak of the US here) a premeditated intentional killing is capital, punishable by upto the death penalty. For the same crime of killing someone in a fit of passion, is 2nd degree and you can't get the death penalty for this. For doing so without any intent is manslaughter. They all have a varying level of punishment and for good reason.
The law isn't just about retribution it is for protection of society. Someone who has shown they intentionally harm someone based on discriminatory intentions is worse than someone who does so because they lost control in a moment of anger.
This is why hate crime legislation exist, because intent and action are both considered by the law. The intent to do harm to a segment of society makes the action worse
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On October 28 2011 22:27 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:18 turdburgler wrote:On October 28 2011 22:15 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 22:14 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 22:12 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 22:04 turdburgler wrote:On October 28 2011 21:59 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 21:55 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 21:45 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 20:30 Scrimpton wrote:
If the kid wasn't gay this wouldnt have a thread.
People get beaten all the time for no reason, they are less important because they aren't in some minority? But he was gay. And you're greatly deluding yourself if you think gay kids getting creamed at school like this doesn't happen regularly. It does, and it's a serious issue. Basically, two things: 1) A physical assault like this is fucking horrible, no matter what kid it was done to 2) Gay kids at school are the victims of far more bullying in school than straight kids, so yes, it does matter that he's gay But it doesn't matter And you're greatly deluding yourself if straight kids getting creamed at school doesn't happen regularly, and like wise it's a serious issue 1)Yes getting attacked is pretty horrible 2)Fat kids, Kids of different race, nerds, geeks, are victims to similar bullying school compared gay kids, so no, don't consider gay on a special tier, they're not that special. What I don't understand, gays want equality with us straights, and we don't mind that, so don't make each case into a special case because the victim is gay, being gay doesn't make them more special than the rest of us Don't be dumb. My point 1 directly addressed that anyone getting creamed at school is a bad thing and serious. The point is gays get proportionately massively more bullying than straight kids. Is the same true of black kids or whatever? Yes, also awful. But the point in hand is that the kid is gay and gays get an extremely tough time of it in schools. you are saying more gay kids get beaten up like its even relevent, its not. more women get raped than men, but is raping a guy any better or worse? no its just rape, its all bad. by singling out the bully by saying "what you did was more bad because the victim was gay" we are supporting the notion that gay people are different to straight people, and that they need to be treated differently. we are agreeing with the bullys madness if not his method. Gay kids ARE different, because they get picked on disproportionately. Do we wish this wasn't the case? Yes. If, in a world that wasn't this one currently, gays don't get bullied all the time and in this instance the kid just HAPPENED to be gay, I'd completely agree with you. But we live in a world where gay kids do get picked on disproportionately, and it doesn't help to sweep it under the mat by saying "they want equality, this should be treated like nothing else", because gay kids DO get treated differently, all around the world. It isn't irrelevant that he's gay, because gay bullying is a specific and awful problem. Just take a look at any of the teen suicide rates. To all the gays who attempt/commit suicide because of their mistreatment by their peers, this is a very serious issue. Unless you're suggesting that vastly higher suicide rates aren't something we should be looking at, because gays are no different. Gays and straights get bullied alike, Punish the offense for what it is don't make special case for gay victim They get bullied alike, but gays suffer it 10x more. That's the difference. Of course I'm pulling 10x out of my arse, but it is massively, massively more. prove to me that a gay suffers any different to a fat/ginger/short/tall/skinny/white/black/latino kid. and even if they do, if you pinch my arm and i break down crying and having a fit, no one would be saying, hey that guy needs to go to jail, look at the reaction he caused in that straight white guy. now dont take my words out of context, im not saying people shouldnt feel bad or upset or hurt when they are attacked, what im saying is their reaction to getting attacked should have no baring on the punishment for the perpetrator. it just doesnt make sense You probably don't understand the law. There is an attribute in the law where intentions impact the severity of the case, mens rea. For example (and I can only speak of the US here) a premeditated intentional killing is capital, punishable by upto the death penalty. For the same crime of killing someone in a fit of passion, is 2nd degree and you can't get the death penalty for this. For doing so without any intent is manslaughter. They all have a varying level of punishment and for good reason. The law isn't just about retribution it is for protection of society. Someone who has shown they intentionally harm someone based on discriminatory intentions is worse than someone who does so because they lost control in a moment of anger. This is why hate crime legislation exist, because intent and action are both considered by the law. The intent to do harm to a segment of society makes the action worse
mens rea is only about intention. did you premeditate vs was is spur of the moment, it has nothing to do with why you are premeditating. and if the law is changing the change that, then i disagree. this isnt a legal discussion to begin with, we are debating what the punishment ought to be in our opinion not in the law books.
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On October 28 2011 22:26 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:21 redviper wrote:On October 28 2011 22:16 turdburgler wrote:
teen suicide rates have nothing to do with this at all. how you choose to deal with pain is nothing to do with this discussion, unless you are honestly trying to say that because gays cant handle it they need to be protected from the wind? is that really the point you are trying to make? that gays are pansies? reaaalllyyy?
the rest of your argument makes no logical sense. you want special treatment but you want to be the same? ive already rebuked everything you just said on this page alone and all last night. you are basically arguing that its not bullying thats bad, its bullying people like 'you' thats bad, and thats a bullshit argument that needs to stop right here. the more you single yourself out (im assuming your gay who knows, who cares) the more you make yourself a target. Bullying is bad. Homophobia is also bad. Together they are worse. How can this still be argued is frankly beyond my ken. so the logical conclusion is that if i say nice things to you while murdering you, its not so bad.
Precisely. This is why we use intentions as a measuring stick. For example, euthansia is different from killing your dad because he is old and a financial burden. Thanks for agreeing with me and seeing the error of your ways. I am just so glad that atleast one person has learned something through an internet debate.
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On October 28 2011 22:30 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:26 turdburgler wrote:On October 28 2011 22:21 redviper wrote:On October 28 2011 22:16 turdburgler wrote:
teen suicide rates have nothing to do with this at all. how you choose to deal with pain is nothing to do with this discussion, unless you are honestly trying to say that because gays cant handle it they need to be protected from the wind? is that really the point you are trying to make? that gays are pansies? reaaalllyyy?
the rest of your argument makes no logical sense. you want special treatment but you want to be the same? ive already rebuked everything you just said on this page alone and all last night. you are basically arguing that its not bullying thats bad, its bullying people like 'you' thats bad, and thats a bullshit argument that needs to stop right here. the more you single yourself out (im assuming your gay who knows, who cares) the more you make yourself a target. Bullying is bad. Homophobia is also bad. Together they are worse. How can this still be argued is frankly beyond my ken. so the logical conclusion is that if i say nice things to you while murdering you, its not so bad. Precisely. This is why we use intentions as a measuring stick. For example, euthansia is different from killing your dad because he is old and a financial burden. Thanks for agreeing with me and seeing the error of your ways. I am just so glad that atleast one person has learned something through an internet debate.
thats completely different, you arent taking his life, he is asking for you to take it.
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On October 28 2011 22:27 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:18 turdburgler wrote:On October 28 2011 22:15 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 22:14 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 22:12 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 22:04 turdburgler wrote:On October 28 2011 21:59 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 21:55 Blasterion wrote:On October 28 2011 21:45 marvellosity wrote:On October 28 2011 20:30 Scrimpton wrote:
If the kid wasn't gay this wouldnt have a thread.
People get beaten all the time for no reason, they are less important because they aren't in some minority? But he was gay. And you're greatly deluding yourself if you think gay kids getting creamed at school like this doesn't happen regularly. It does, and it's a serious issue. Basically, two things: 1) A physical assault like this is fucking horrible, no matter what kid it was done to 2) Gay kids at school are the victims of far more bullying in school than straight kids, so yes, it does matter that he's gay But it doesn't matter And you're greatly deluding yourself if straight kids getting creamed at school doesn't happen regularly, and like wise it's a serious issue 1)Yes getting attacked is pretty horrible 2)Fat kids, Kids of different race, nerds, geeks, are victims to similar bullying school compared gay kids, so no, don't consider gay on a special tier, they're not that special. What I don't understand, gays want equality with us straights, and we don't mind that, so don't make each case into a special case because the victim is gay, being gay doesn't make them more special than the rest of us Don't be dumb. My point 1 directly addressed that anyone getting creamed at school is a bad thing and serious. The point is gays get proportionately massively more bullying than straight kids. Is the same true of black kids or whatever? Yes, also awful. But the point in hand is that the kid is gay and gays get an extremely tough time of it in schools. you are saying more gay kids get beaten up like its even relevent, its not. more women get raped than men, but is raping a guy any better or worse? no its just rape, its all bad. by singling out the bully by saying "what you did was more bad because the victim was gay" we are supporting the notion that gay people are different to straight people, and that they need to be treated differently. we are agreeing with the bullys madness if not his method. Gay kids ARE different, because they get picked on disproportionately. Do we wish this wasn't the case? Yes. If, in a world that wasn't this one currently, gays don't get bullied all the time and in this instance the kid just HAPPENED to be gay, I'd completely agree with you. But we live in a world where gay kids do get picked on disproportionately, and it doesn't help to sweep it under the mat by saying "they want equality, this should be treated like nothing else", because gay kids DO get treated differently, all around the world. It isn't irrelevant that he's gay, because gay bullying is a specific and awful problem. Just take a look at any of the teen suicide rates. To all the gays who attempt/commit suicide because of their mistreatment by their peers, this is a very serious issue. Unless you're suggesting that vastly higher suicide rates aren't something we should be looking at, because gays are no different. Gays and straights get bullied alike, Punish the offense for what it is don't make special case for gay victim They get bullied alike, but gays suffer it 10x more. That's the difference. Of course I'm pulling 10x out of my arse, but it is massively, massively more. prove to me that a gay suffers any different to a fat/ginger/short/tall/skinny/white/black/latino kid. and even if they do, if you pinch my arm and i break down crying and having a fit, no one would be saying, hey that guy needs to go to jail, look at the reaction he caused in that straight white guy. now dont take my words out of context, im not saying people shouldnt feel bad or upset or hurt when they are attacked, what im saying is their reaction to getting attacked should have no baring on the punishment for the perpetrator. it just doesnt make sense You probably don't understand the law. There is an attribute in the law where intentions impact the severity of the case, mens rea. For example (and I can only speak of the US here) a premeditated intentional killing is capital, punishable by upto the death penalty. For the same crime of killing someone in a fit of passion, is 2nd degree and you can't get the death penalty for this. For doing so without any intent is manslaughter. They all have a varying level of punishment and for good reason. The law isn't just about retribution it is for protection of society. Someone who has shown they intentionally harm someone based on discriminatory intentions is worse than someone who does so because they lost control in a moment of anger. This is why hate crime legislation exist, because intent and action are both considered by the law. The intent to do harm to a segment of society makes the action worse
That's because you're comparing cases that aren't equal to begin with. Mens rea considers IF the crime was pre-meditated, not what the pre-meditation consisted of.
You should be comparing examples like this:
- The pre-meditated murder of a woman by her husband for personal reasons with the pre-meditated murder of a gay person for homophobic reasons.
I'm not willing to punish one of them more harshly then the other, because both come from thoughts that degrade the victim to a point where he/she isn't 'worthy' of life.
Explain to me please why one is worse then the other please, and why a higher punishment in one of the cases is justified.
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EPT
