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On October 27 2011 14:28 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:15 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 14:12 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 14:05 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:39 IMSmooth wrote:saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that  fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces get your racist ass off of team liquid way to put things out of context, bold the whole line the next time. after all, its only been the white people whos supporting shark fin banning, and its the white people that thinks it will save sharks. and apparently white people that thinks that line is racist. its like saying that you'd have to be chinese to not understand the leniency of parenting in the average american household, and i dont. you white people clearly dont understand that the banning of shark fin soup is useless You clearly have no clue if you think banning it won't do anything. Its working pretty well with whaling, so I guess in us "white people" actually have previous examples, facts and evidence to back up our stance that banning it will help lessen the effects. What do you have as proof that bans on shark fins wont do anything to lessen the hunting of sharks? None, only conjecture. what about the fact that china, singapore and hong kong simply will never ban shark fin soup and that possibly 99% of chinese people who currently eat shark fin soup will not stop eating it just to save sharks? if the local chinese in canada can't eat it, they can just eat as much as they can the next time they visit china AND THEY WILL TIL only white people support the ban of shark fin. The Chinese would simply never ban shark fin. http://ascportfolios.org/chinaandmedia/2011/04/25/shark-fin-soups-days-may-be-numbered/Show nested quote +A recent survey of 1,000 Hong Kong residents found that 78% of respondents viewed taking shark fin soup off menus as “acceptable” or “very acceptable.” Oh wait. http://bloomassociation.org/bloom/media/SurveysharkconsumptionhabitsinHong Kong.pdfShow nested quote +Acceptance of not including shark fin soup in a wedding banquet:
Very acceptable 19.6%
Acceptable 58.8%
Not so acceptable 16.5%
Not acceptable at all 5.1%
Perception of shark population size:
Growing 1.5%
The same 9.6%
Declining 88.9%
Feeling about eating endangered fish:
Very comfortable 1.5%
A little comfortable 2.1%
Neither comfortable nor uncomfortable 29.9%
Not so comfortable 38.9%
Not comfortable at all 27.6
Support for the prohibition of the import of shark fins to Hong Kong:
Strong support 31.1%
Moderate support 54.2%
Weak support 11.4%
Not support at all 3.3%
Perception of the quality of the HK marine environment:
Excellent 1.0%
Good 13.4%
Not so good 63.6%
No good at all 21.9% TIalsoL That a sizable portion of the Hong Kong demographic are white. inb4 "statistics are damned lies!" Also, as an aside, claiming that almost every Chinese person that currently consumes shark fin would never stop consuming it out of environmental concerns paints a very pathetic picture of the Chinese, and frankly, it is utterly untrue. You have somehow stereotyped the Chinese in quite possibly the worst way with your own hands. Whatever, if you have such a low opinion of the Chinese then that is your own fault.
there are worse ways to stereotype a country. but anyhow, i take your stats and some of them are revelent, some are not. my main point is, simply in hong kong, many chinese families probably go eat shark fin soup once or twice a year for special occasions; the richer families can probably eat once or twice per month and the filthy richest can eat them everyday.
for the majority of us, we obviously know that sharks are becoming extinct and we feel bad about it. however, the mindset of most families that eat occasionally, will probably think that eating once or twice a year has a minor affect, and most likely will not stop eating that once or twice per year. espescially given that with the exception of shark fin soup, we dont have many other delicacies that are revered by so many people and its mainly for a social status
On October 27 2011 14:35 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:33 taldarimAltar wrote:On October 27 2011 14:28 koreasilver wrote:On October 27 2011 14:15 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 14:12 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 14:05 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:39 IMSmooth wrote:saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces get your racist ass off of team liquid way to put things out of context, bold the whole line the next time. after all, its only been the white people whos supporting shark fin banning, and its the white people that thinks it will save sharks. and apparently white people that thinks that line is racist. its like saying that you'd have to be chinese to not understand the leniency of parenting in the average american household, and i dont. you white people clearly dont understand that the banning of shark fin soup is useless You clearly have no clue if you think banning it won't do anything. Its working pretty well with whaling, so I guess in us "white people" actually have previous examples, facts and evidence to back up our stance that banning it will help lessen the effects. What do you have as proof that bans on shark fins wont do anything to lessen the hunting of sharks? None, only conjecture. what about the fact that china, singapore and hong kong simply will never ban shark fin soup and that possibly 99% of chinese people who currently eat shark fin soup will not stop eating it just to save sharks? if the local chinese in canada can't eat it, they can just eat as much as they can the next time they visit china AND THEY WILL TIL only white people support the ban of shark fin. The Chinese would simply never ban shark fin. http://ascportfolios.org/chinaandmedia/2011/04/25/shark-fin-soups-days-may-be-numbered/A recent survey of 1,000 Hong Kong residents found that 78% of respondents viewed taking shark fin soup off menus as “acceptable” or “very acceptable.” Oh wait. http://bloomassociation.org/bloom/media/SurveysharkconsumptionhabitsinHong Kong.pdfAcceptance of not including shark fin soup in a wedding banquet:
Very acceptable 19.6%
Acceptable 58.8%
Not so acceptable 16.5%
Not acceptable at all 5.1%
Perception of shark population size:
Growing 1.5%
The same 9.6%
Declining 88.9%
Feeling about eating endangered fish:
Very comfortable 1.5%
A little comfortable 2.1%
Neither comfortable nor uncomfortable 29.9%
Not so comfortable 38.9%
Not comfortable at all 27.6
Support for the prohibition of the import of shark fins to Hong Kong:
Strong support 31.1%
Moderate support 54.2%
Weak support 11.4%
Not support at all 3.3%
Perception of the quality of the HK marine environment:
Excellent 1.0%
Good 13.4%
Not so good 63.6%
No good at all 21.9% TIalsoL That a sizable portion of the Hong Kong demographic are white. inb4 "statistics are damned lies!" Lol amusing how you went to all that trouble to point out his leap in logic... But I think he's trying to say that banning sharks fin ONLY in canada will not affect global shark fishing, because of demand from asian countries. A global ban on eating fin may help, but that'll never happen A global ban outside of China would put an end to shark fin consumption inside China regardless of China's willingness to play along, since there would be no place to get shark fin legally anymore.
the ban is only banning consumption and sale, not the hunting and poaching. and of course there will be illegal poachers simply due to the price
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On October 27 2011 14:37 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:33 taldarimAltar wrote:On October 27 2011 14:28 koreasilver wrote:On October 27 2011 14:15 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 14:12 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 14:05 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:39 IMSmooth wrote:saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces get your racist ass off of team liquid way to put things out of context, bold the whole line the next time. after all, its only been the white people whos supporting shark fin banning, and its the white people that thinks it will save sharks. and apparently white people that thinks that line is racist. its like saying that you'd have to be chinese to not understand the leniency of parenting in the average american household, and i dont. you white people clearly dont understand that the banning of shark fin soup is useless You clearly have no clue if you think banning it won't do anything. Its working pretty well with whaling, so I guess in us "white people" actually have previous examples, facts and evidence to back up our stance that banning it will help lessen the effects. What do you have as proof that bans on shark fins wont do anything to lessen the hunting of sharks? None, only conjecture. what about the fact that china, singapore and hong kong simply will never ban shark fin soup and that possibly 99% of chinese people who currently eat shark fin soup will not stop eating it just to save sharks? if the local chinese in canada can't eat it, they can just eat as much as they can the next time they visit china AND THEY WILL TIL only white people support the ban of shark fin. The Chinese would simply never ban shark fin. http://ascportfolios.org/chinaandmedia/2011/04/25/shark-fin-soups-days-may-be-numbered/A recent survey of 1,000 Hong Kong residents found that 78% of respondents viewed taking shark fin soup off menus as “acceptable” or “very acceptable.” Oh wait. http://bloomassociation.org/bloom/media/SurveysharkconsumptionhabitsinHong Kong.pdfAcceptance of not including shark fin soup in a wedding banquet:
Very acceptable 19.6%
Acceptable 58.8%
Not so acceptable 16.5%
Not acceptable at all 5.1%
Perception of shark population size:
Growing 1.5%
The same 9.6%
Declining 88.9%
Feeling about eating endangered fish:
Very comfortable 1.5%
A little comfortable 2.1%
Neither comfortable nor uncomfortable 29.9%
Not so comfortable 38.9%
Not comfortable at all 27.6
Support for the prohibition of the import of shark fins to Hong Kong:
Strong support 31.1%
Moderate support 54.2%
Weak support 11.4%
Not support at all 3.3%
Perception of the quality of the HK marine environment:
Excellent 1.0%
Good 13.4%
Not so good 63.6%
No good at all 21.9% TIalsoL That a sizable portion of the Hong Kong demographic are white. inb4 "statistics are damned lies!" Lol amusing how you went to all that trouble to point out his leap in logic... But I think he's trying to say that banning sharks fin ONLY in canada will not affect global shark fishing, because of demand from asian countries. A global ban on eating fin may help, but that'll never happen I've noted that this is a very small affair, especially since the ban is only in one city, not even a province let alone the entire country (insert link to "do you actually read the whole OP" thread). Nevertheless, by this guy's definition it seems like at least half of Hong Kong residents are not actually Chinese, let alone Asian. Cool story, bro.
whats my definition? i didnt say anything about hong kong
lol, you didnt even read my 4 lines of post and u are complaining about reading the whole OP
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On October 27 2011 14:48 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:28 koreasilver wrote:On October 27 2011 14:15 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 14:12 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 14:05 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:39 IMSmooth wrote:saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces get your racist ass off of team liquid way to put things out of context, bold the whole line the next time. after all, its only been the white people whos supporting shark fin banning, and its the white people that thinks it will save sharks. and apparently white people that thinks that line is racist. its like saying that you'd have to be chinese to not understand the leniency of parenting in the average american household, and i dont. you white people clearly dont understand that the banning of shark fin soup is useless You clearly have no clue if you think banning it won't do anything. Its working pretty well with whaling, so I guess in us "white people" actually have previous examples, facts and evidence to back up our stance that banning it will help lessen the effects. What do you have as proof that bans on shark fins wont do anything to lessen the hunting of sharks? None, only conjecture. what about the fact that china, singapore and hong kong simply will never ban shark fin soup and that possibly 99% of chinese people who currently eat shark fin soup will not stop eating it just to save sharks? if the local chinese in canada can't eat it, they can just eat as much as they can the next time they visit china AND THEY WILL TIL only white people support the ban of shark fin. The Chinese would simply never ban shark fin. http://ascportfolios.org/chinaandmedia/2011/04/25/shark-fin-soups-days-may-be-numbered/A recent survey of 1,000 Hong Kong residents found that 78% of respondents viewed taking shark fin soup off menus as “acceptable” or “very acceptable.” Oh wait. http://bloomassociation.org/bloom/media/SurveysharkconsumptionhabitsinHong Kong.pdfAcceptance of not including shark fin soup in a wedding banquet:
Very acceptable 19.6%
Acceptable 58.8%
Not so acceptable 16.5%
Not acceptable at all 5.1%
Perception of shark population size:
Growing 1.5%
The same 9.6%
Declining 88.9%
Feeling about eating endangered fish:
Very comfortable 1.5%
A little comfortable 2.1%
Neither comfortable nor uncomfortable 29.9%
Not so comfortable 38.9%
Not comfortable at all 27.6
Support for the prohibition of the import of shark fins to Hong Kong:
Strong support 31.1%
Moderate support 54.2%
Weak support 11.4%
Not support at all 3.3%
Perception of the quality of the HK marine environment:
Excellent 1.0%
Good 13.4%
Not so good 63.6%
No good at all 21.9% TIalsoL That a sizable portion of the Hong Kong demographic are white. inb4 "statistics are damned lies!" Also, as an aside, claiming that almost every Chinese person that currently consumes shark fin would never stop consuming it out of environmental concerns paints a very pathetic picture of the Chinese, and frankly, it is utterly untrue. You have somehow stereotyped the Chinese in quite possibly the worst way with your own hands. Whatever, if you have such a low opinion of the Chinese then that is your own fault. there are worse ways to stereotype a country. but anyhow, i take your stats and some of them are revelent, some are not. my main point is, simply in hong kong, many chinese families probably go eat shark fin soup once or twice a year for special occasions; the richer families can probably eat once or twice per month and the filthy richest can eat them everyday. for the majority of us, we obviously know that sharks are becoming extinct and we feel bad about it. however, the mindset of most families that eat occasionally, will probably think that eating once or twice a year has a minor affect, and most likely will not stop eating that once or twice per year. espescially given that with the exception of shark fin soup, we dont have many other delicacies that are revered by so many people and its mainly for a social status Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:35 sevencck wrote:On October 27 2011 14:33 taldarimAltar wrote:On October 27 2011 14:28 koreasilver wrote:On October 27 2011 14:15 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 14:12 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 14:05 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:39 IMSmooth wrote:saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces get your racist ass off of team liquid way to put things out of context, bold the whole line the next time. after all, its only been the white people whos supporting shark fin banning, and its the white people that thinks it will save sharks. and apparently white people that thinks that line is racist. its like saying that you'd have to be chinese to not understand the leniency of parenting in the average american household, and i dont. you white people clearly dont understand that the banning of shark fin soup is useless You clearly have no clue if you think banning it won't do anything. Its working pretty well with whaling, so I guess in us "white people" actually have previous examples, facts and evidence to back up our stance that banning it will help lessen the effects. What do you have as proof that bans on shark fins wont do anything to lessen the hunting of sharks? None, only conjecture. what about the fact that china, singapore and hong kong simply will never ban shark fin soup and that possibly 99% of chinese people who currently eat shark fin soup will not stop eating it just to save sharks? if the local chinese in canada can't eat it, they can just eat as much as they can the next time they visit china AND THEY WILL TIL only white people support the ban of shark fin. The Chinese would simply never ban shark fin. http://ascportfolios.org/chinaandmedia/2011/04/25/shark-fin-soups-days-may-be-numbered/A recent survey of 1,000 Hong Kong residents found that 78% of respondents viewed taking shark fin soup off menus as “acceptable” or “very acceptable.” Oh wait. http://bloomassociation.org/bloom/media/SurveysharkconsumptionhabitsinHong Kong.pdfAcceptance of not including shark fin soup in a wedding banquet:
Very acceptable 19.6%
Acceptable 58.8%
Not so acceptable 16.5%
Not acceptable at all 5.1%
Perception of shark population size:
Growing 1.5%
The same 9.6%
Declining 88.9%
Feeling about eating endangered fish:
Very comfortable 1.5%
A little comfortable 2.1%
Neither comfortable nor uncomfortable 29.9%
Not so comfortable 38.9%
Not comfortable at all 27.6
Support for the prohibition of the import of shark fins to Hong Kong:
Strong support 31.1%
Moderate support 54.2%
Weak support 11.4%
Not support at all 3.3%
Perception of the quality of the HK marine environment:
Excellent 1.0%
Good 13.4%
Not so good 63.6%
No good at all 21.9% TIalsoL That a sizable portion of the Hong Kong demographic are white. inb4 "statistics are damned lies!" Lol amusing how you went to all that trouble to point out his leap in logic... But I think he's trying to say that banning sharks fin ONLY in canada will not affect global shark fishing, because of demand from asian countries. A global ban on eating fin may help, but that'll never happen A global ban outside of China would put an end to shark fin consumption inside China regardless of China's willingness to play along, since there would be no place to get shark fin legally anymore. the ban is only banning consumption and sale, not the hunting and poaching. and of course there will be illegal poachers simply due to the price
The ban is currently banning consumption and sale, and if such a ban catches fire, why would it be reasonable to assume the efforts would stop with consumption and sale. It will likely eventually become illegal to hunt them. Conservation laws are on the rise globally. Glad to see you're supporting illegal poaching globally though, that China first attitude isn't likely to be criticized or anything. Also, if it comes to shark fins being poached, China's shark fin consumption will be crippled to the point of being non existent. So I'd be fine with that.
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On October 27 2011 14:52 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:37 koreasilver wrote:On October 27 2011 14:33 taldarimAltar wrote:On October 27 2011 14:28 koreasilver wrote:On October 27 2011 14:15 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 14:12 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 14:05 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:39 IMSmooth wrote:saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces get your racist ass off of team liquid way to put things out of context, bold the whole line the next time. after all, its only been the white people whos supporting shark fin banning, and its the white people that thinks it will save sharks. and apparently white people that thinks that line is racist. its like saying that you'd have to be chinese to not understand the leniency of parenting in the average american household, and i dont. you white people clearly dont understand that the banning of shark fin soup is useless You clearly have no clue if you think banning it won't do anything. Its working pretty well with whaling, so I guess in us "white people" actually have previous examples, facts and evidence to back up our stance that banning it will help lessen the effects. What do you have as proof that bans on shark fins wont do anything to lessen the hunting of sharks? None, only conjecture. what about the fact that china, singapore and hong kong simply will never ban shark fin soup and that possibly 99% of chinese people who currently eat shark fin soup will not stop eating it just to save sharks? if the local chinese in canada can't eat it, they can just eat as much as they can the next time they visit china AND THEY WILL TIL only white people support the ban of shark fin. The Chinese would simply never ban shark fin. http://ascportfolios.org/chinaandmedia/2011/04/25/shark-fin-soups-days-may-be-numbered/A recent survey of 1,000 Hong Kong residents found that 78% of respondents viewed taking shark fin soup off menus as “acceptable” or “very acceptable.” Oh wait. http://bloomassociation.org/bloom/media/SurveysharkconsumptionhabitsinHong Kong.pdfAcceptance of not including shark fin soup in a wedding banquet:
Very acceptable 19.6%
Acceptable 58.8%
Not so acceptable 16.5%
Not acceptable at all 5.1%
Perception of shark population size:
Growing 1.5%
The same 9.6%
Declining 88.9%
Feeling about eating endangered fish:
Very comfortable 1.5%
A little comfortable 2.1%
Neither comfortable nor uncomfortable 29.9%
Not so comfortable 38.9%
Not comfortable at all 27.6
Support for the prohibition of the import of shark fins to Hong Kong:
Strong support 31.1%
Moderate support 54.2%
Weak support 11.4%
Not support at all 3.3%
Perception of the quality of the HK marine environment:
Excellent 1.0%
Good 13.4%
Not so good 63.6%
No good at all 21.9% TIalsoL That a sizable portion of the Hong Kong demographic are white. inb4 "statistics are damned lies!" Lol amusing how you went to all that trouble to point out his leap in logic... But I think he's trying to say that banning sharks fin ONLY in canada will not affect global shark fishing, because of demand from asian countries. A global ban on eating fin may help, but that'll never happen I've noted that this is a very small affair, especially since the ban is only in one city, not even a province let alone the entire country (insert link to "do you actually read the whole OP" thread). Nevertheless, by this guy's definition it seems like at least half of Hong Kong residents are not actually Chinese, let alone Asian. Cool story, bro. whats my definition? i didnt say anything about hong kong lol, you didnt even read my 4 lines of post and u are complaining about reading the whole OP
Here you go.
Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:05 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:39 IMSmooth wrote:saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces get your racist ass off of team liquid way to put things out of context, bold the whole line the next time. after all, its only been the white people whos supporting shark fin banning, and its the white people that thinks it will save sharks. and apparently white people that thinks that line is racist. its like saying that you'd have to be chinese to not understand the leniency of parenting in the average american household, and i dont. you white people clearly dont understand that the banning of shark fin soup is useless
I've proven my point enough.
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On October 27 2011 14:55 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:48 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 14:28 koreasilver wrote:On October 27 2011 14:15 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 14:12 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 14:05 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:39 IMSmooth wrote:saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces get your racist ass off of team liquid way to put things out of context, bold the whole line the next time. after all, its only been the white people whos supporting shark fin banning, and its the white people that thinks it will save sharks. and apparently white people that thinks that line is racist. its like saying that you'd have to be chinese to not understand the leniency of parenting in the average american household, and i dont. you white people clearly dont understand that the banning of shark fin soup is useless You clearly have no clue if you think banning it won't do anything. Its working pretty well with whaling, so I guess in us "white people" actually have previous examples, facts and evidence to back up our stance that banning it will help lessen the effects. What do you have as proof that bans on shark fins wont do anything to lessen the hunting of sharks? None, only conjecture. what about the fact that china, singapore and hong kong simply will never ban shark fin soup and that possibly 99% of chinese people who currently eat shark fin soup will not stop eating it just to save sharks? if the local chinese in canada can't eat it, they can just eat as much as they can the next time they visit china AND THEY WILL TIL only white people support the ban of shark fin. The Chinese would simply never ban shark fin. http://ascportfolios.org/chinaandmedia/2011/04/25/shark-fin-soups-days-may-be-numbered/A recent survey of 1,000 Hong Kong residents found that 78% of respondents viewed taking shark fin soup off menus as “acceptable” or “very acceptable.” Oh wait. http://bloomassociation.org/bloom/media/SurveysharkconsumptionhabitsinHong Kong.pdfAcceptance of not including shark fin soup in a wedding banquet:
Very acceptable 19.6%
Acceptable 58.8%
Not so acceptable 16.5%
Not acceptable at all 5.1%
Perception of shark population size:
Growing 1.5%
The same 9.6%
Declining 88.9%
Feeling about eating endangered fish:
Very comfortable 1.5%
A little comfortable 2.1%
Neither comfortable nor uncomfortable 29.9%
Not so comfortable 38.9%
Not comfortable at all 27.6
Support for the prohibition of the import of shark fins to Hong Kong:
Strong support 31.1%
Moderate support 54.2%
Weak support 11.4%
Not support at all 3.3%
Perception of the quality of the HK marine environment:
Excellent 1.0%
Good 13.4%
Not so good 63.6%
No good at all 21.9% TIalsoL That a sizable portion of the Hong Kong demographic are white. inb4 "statistics are damned lies!" Also, as an aside, claiming that almost every Chinese person that currently consumes shark fin would never stop consuming it out of environmental concerns paints a very pathetic picture of the Chinese, and frankly, it is utterly untrue. You have somehow stereotyped the Chinese in quite possibly the worst way with your own hands. Whatever, if you have such a low opinion of the Chinese then that is your own fault. there are worse ways to stereotype a country. but anyhow, i take your stats and some of them are revelent, some are not. my main point is, simply in hong kong, many chinese families probably go eat shark fin soup once or twice a year for special occasions; the richer families can probably eat once or twice per month and the filthy richest can eat them everyday. for the majority of us, we obviously know that sharks are becoming extinct and we feel bad about it. however, the mindset of most families that eat occasionally, will probably think that eating once or twice a year has a minor affect, and most likely will not stop eating that once or twice per year. espescially given that with the exception of shark fin soup, we dont have many other delicacies that are revered by so many people and its mainly for a social status On October 27 2011 14:35 sevencck wrote:On October 27 2011 14:33 taldarimAltar wrote:On October 27 2011 14:28 koreasilver wrote:On October 27 2011 14:15 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 14:12 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 14:05 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:39 IMSmooth wrote:saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces get your racist ass off of team liquid way to put things out of context, bold the whole line the next time. after all, its only been the white people whos supporting shark fin banning, and its the white people that thinks it will save sharks. and apparently white people that thinks that line is racist. its like saying that you'd have to be chinese to not understand the leniency of parenting in the average american household, and i dont. you white people clearly dont understand that the banning of shark fin soup is useless You clearly have no clue if you think banning it won't do anything. Its working pretty well with whaling, so I guess in us "white people" actually have previous examples, facts and evidence to back up our stance that banning it will help lessen the effects. What do you have as proof that bans on shark fins wont do anything to lessen the hunting of sharks? None, only conjecture. what about the fact that china, singapore and hong kong simply will never ban shark fin soup and that possibly 99% of chinese people who currently eat shark fin soup will not stop eating it just to save sharks? if the local chinese in canada can't eat it, they can just eat as much as they can the next time they visit china AND THEY WILL TIL only white people support the ban of shark fin. The Chinese would simply never ban shark fin. http://ascportfolios.org/chinaandmedia/2011/04/25/shark-fin-soups-days-may-be-numbered/A recent survey of 1,000 Hong Kong residents found that 78% of respondents viewed taking shark fin soup off menus as “acceptable” or “very acceptable.” Oh wait. http://bloomassociation.org/bloom/media/SurveysharkconsumptionhabitsinHong Kong.pdfAcceptance of not including shark fin soup in a wedding banquet:
Very acceptable 19.6%
Acceptable 58.8%
Not so acceptable 16.5%
Not acceptable at all 5.1%
Perception of shark population size:
Growing 1.5%
The same 9.6%
Declining 88.9%
Feeling about eating endangered fish:
Very comfortable 1.5%
A little comfortable 2.1%
Neither comfortable nor uncomfortable 29.9%
Not so comfortable 38.9%
Not comfortable at all 27.6
Support for the prohibition of the import of shark fins to Hong Kong:
Strong support 31.1%
Moderate support 54.2%
Weak support 11.4%
Not support at all 3.3%
Perception of the quality of the HK marine environment:
Excellent 1.0%
Good 13.4%
Not so good 63.6%
No good at all 21.9% TIalsoL That a sizable portion of the Hong Kong demographic are white. inb4 "statistics are damned lies!" Lol amusing how you went to all that trouble to point out his leap in logic... But I think he's trying to say that banning sharks fin ONLY in canada will not affect global shark fishing, because of demand from asian countries. A global ban on eating fin may help, but that'll never happen A global ban outside of China would put an end to shark fin consumption inside China regardless of China's willingness to play along, since there would be no place to get shark fin legally anymore. the ban is only banning consumption and sale, not the hunting and poaching. and of course there will be illegal poachers simply due to the price The ban is currently banning consumption and sale, and if such a ban catches fire, why would it be reasonable to assume the efforts would stop with consumption and sale. It will likely eventually become illegal to hunt them. Conservation laws are on the rise globally. Glad to see you're supporting illegal poaching globally though, that China first attitude isn't likely to be criticized or anything. Also, if it comes to shark fins being poached, China's shark fin consumption will be crippled to the point of being non existent. So I'd be fine with that.
either that or i foresee the extinction of sharks. its an ending thats bound to come. anyhow, the consumption of shark fins will not cease until the sharks are near extinction
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On October 27 2011 14:39 IMSmooth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:18 JieXian wrote:On October 27 2011 02:44 IMSmooth wrote:On October 27 2011 02:29 JieXian wrote:On October 27 2011 02:12 blinken wrote:
This is what I love about North America: we let culture die a long time ago.
Culture being more important than animal welfare? What a joke.
You're upset you can't brutally kill sharks because your people have been eating shark fin soup for a long time... for reasons of culture...
Here's an idea, you might try and evolve out of ridiculous cultural norms. The western world does it exceedingly well, maybe China should try it.
Or you could continue your ignorance and brutally kill rare sharks for no other reason than your ancestors did it. You have a lot of cultures that may be considered as ridiculous cultural norms that you won't be ... "evolving" out of anytime soon. Just a short google : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_cultureHaving said that, I'll still be very happy to have shark fin's soup without the fin because the broth itself is really delicious and the fin adds nothing to the flavour but only serves a textural purpose and use a subsitute like we poor people do. I don't care what you'll call it, it's still delicious. Obviously you can see that my view is somewhat biased though. Great post : + Show Spoiler +On October 27 2011 01:09 Hikari wrote:
I am against this ban.
Have had sharkfin soup multiple times in the past, mostly in major celebrations. Not too sure about the no flavor thing, but it does change the texture of the soup to be somewhat gooey. I suppose you can replace that texture and taste from other sources, just as having fake beef made from soy (the ones these days are very hard to tell which is fake and which is real if you don't look into what you are eating in details).
I agree that cutting off the fins and throwing the shark back into the ocean is a waste.
However there is still legal hunting of sharks, and sharks do come with fins.
What I dislike about this whole sharkfin ban is that its more or less a political act. No, banning shark fin trades in various cities would NOT fix anything, but to give raise to "illegal trading" of "legally obtained" shark fin.
What needs to happen is for countries around the world to tighten sharking regulations: returning with a shipload of sharkfin without any "sharks" should not be able to walk around sharking bans some countries have.
To my knowledge, cruel harvesting of shark fins do not happen in Canada. Should we also ban fur trade just because parts of the world take fur in a cruel manner? How about making it a law to help the injured since people in China simply let that little girl suffer after getting rolled over by 2 cars? It is not a Toronto problem.
Why ban shark fin trading when the city should just ban the trade of tobaco? Cigarettes are known to cause nothing but trouble, and I see cigs to be far more inhumane (omg: people are suffering from cancer from 2nd hand smoking!) than shark fins.
Politicians are simply wasting time, putting up an act, pretending they just performed a good deed for the community while affecting many chinese eateries and medicine shops.
Take chickens for example: a lot of them are raised in small cages the size of a shoe box: that is not very humane right? Does that mean we should ban all chicken sale, including those raise in free ranges?
The problem is there but is approached in the completely wrong method. If I am an international shark fin trader I wouldn't give a shit about the ban, and maybe secretly rejoice since I can try to start and underground sharkfin trade to those in Toronto and possible establishing a monopoly. To top it off, as shark fin trading is illegal anyway, might as well as sell them the "real" illegal stuff from Africa instead of buying fins off Canadian fisheries. You literally just used Wikipedia and typed in american culture as your point AND source, I am literally in shock to what that is supposed to prove. Also, we do not waste a single part of chicken and we have found a sustainable way to keep that practice without endangering a species. This ban is NOT because it is inhumane. I am starting to get pissed because i made this point freaking 15 pages ago but you people dont bother to read the thread before posting. I'm literally in shock as to how you are literally oblivious to the fact that Americans have a culture. I literally thought that it was so blatantly obvious that I didn't need to spoonfeed you with details when you actually click the link and literally see the long list that awaits you. So let me put it in my own words. I hope I don't need to "sources" for this. Let's start with food since the topic is about food: Hot dogs, burgers, all the fast food chains, Pepsi, turkey (not exclusive to USA but it still is your culture), Rocky Mountain oysters are what I can think of. I'm sure there are a lot more. The main problem with finning is throwing a finless shark back into the ocean. It seems more of an ethics case than overhunting. Still an issue but ethics seems to be the defining arguement. Also a key point, most people dont use shark meat , so 90%+ of the animal is wasted Ya and if you read the OP he literally bolded that part. Maybe being humane wasn't your arguement. But just so you know the topic is literally about Canadian Politicians banning shark's fin. I would guess most people are arguing against Toronto's reasonings so clearly stated in the OP. NONE of those things you mentioned are unsustainable and endangering to a species. You just stated in the post i quoted that oh there are plenty of similar things in western culture. Then you straight up told everyone to google that shit. I looked at the list. The list was fucking irrelevant to the ENTIRE discussion. edit: you literally used literally 5 times in a paragraph. Come on now
Yes my list was very irrelevant to being sustainable because I wasn't even addressing it. But shit my bad I forgot what I posted yesterday I thought that I just told him that Americans have a culture, but forgot that I was adressing "ridiculous cultural norms".
This is what I love about North America: we let culture die a long time ago.
Here's an idea, you might try and evolve out of ridiculous cultural norms. The western world does it exceedingly well, maybe China should try it.
So back to my point, some ridiculous cultural norms: Binge drinking, having food for the commonner to be very unhealthy, school not about learning but being popular - which contributes to their relatively low Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) ranking.
My point is that the American culture is no way "more evolved". Something being ridiculous or not can be very subjective.
Yes, they are generalisations, but so is the statement that every Chinese are shark killers because only the rich can afford it.
About my usage of literally, hahahahaha it was just a response of your being "literally shocked" earlier whatever that means.
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On October 27 2011 12:58 Elite__ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 12:54 Blasterion wrote:On October 27 2011 12:53 Elite__ wrote:
I can't even fathom how one of the arguments to keep shark fin soup legal is that its a cultural tradition. From the video's I saw, the sharks are being brutalized and are then just thrown back into the ocean to rot at the bottom where they cant move because they don't have their fins, and since they are in the water its not like they are suffocating, they just lay their until they have this terrible, long death.
Are people really not willing to give up a tradition for what is potentially the survivability of an entire race of animals? I completely understand that people hold shark fin soup near and dear to their hearts since it is a tradition, but how can a tradition be more important than the sharks live's?
And what is even more mind boggling to me is that people are talking about how the soup tastes so good and nothing can replicate it. Why should the taste of it matter? You won't give something up for the greater good because it tastes good? I absolutely love peanuts but when I was young I developed an allergy to them and was not able to have them. I wouldn't risk my health simply because I still like peanuts. The same thing goes with shark fin soup being banned. It being banned is like having an allergy to it, you simply cannot have it or there will be severe consequences. If I knew I was saving a whole race of animals by simply not eating something that tasted good, then so be it. Its a small price to pay, even if I don't see the rewards first hand. I am just gonna suggest, you to taste it first, It really is pretty amazing, I don't care what it tastes like. If I was someone who ate shark fin soup once in a while and knew that If I stopped eating it, I would help save a species, then that would be much more rewarding than the damn taste.
What if.. Just what if. Cows were going extinct?
I can't imagine my life without beef.
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On October 27 2011 15:33 theBALLS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 12:58 Elite__ wrote:On October 27 2011 12:54 Blasterion wrote:On October 27 2011 12:53 Elite__ wrote:
I can't even fathom how one of the arguments to keep shark fin soup legal is that its a cultural tradition. From the video's I saw, the sharks are being brutalized and are then just thrown back into the ocean to rot at the bottom where they cant move because they don't have their fins, and since they are in the water its not like they are suffocating, they just lay their until they have this terrible, long death.
Are people really not willing to give up a tradition for what is potentially the survivability of an entire race of animals? I completely understand that people hold shark fin soup near and dear to their hearts since it is a tradition, but how can a tradition be more important than the sharks live's?
And what is even more mind boggling to me is that people are talking about how the soup tastes so good and nothing can replicate it. Why should the taste of it matter? You won't give something up for the greater good because it tastes good? I absolutely love peanuts but when I was young I developed an allergy to them and was not able to have them. I wouldn't risk my health simply because I still like peanuts. The same thing goes with shark fin soup being banned. It being banned is like having an allergy to it, you simply cannot have it or there will be severe consequences. If I knew I was saving a whole race of animals by simply not eating something that tasted good, then so be it. Its a small price to pay, even if I don't see the rewards first hand. I am just gonna suggest, you to taste it first, It really is pretty amazing, I don't care what it tastes like. If I was someone who ate shark fin soup once in a while and knew that If I stopped eating it, I would help save a species, then that would be much more rewarding than the damn taste. What if.. Just what if. Cows were going extinct? I can't imagine my life without beef.
i can, id just eat other meat, and i love beeeef!
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I'm support the conservation of sharks as an endangered species that is crucial to the balance of ocean ecosystems. I'm against overfishing and wasteful practices that are a byproduct of greed and, arguably, a byproduct of capitalism.
There are a lot of good points raised among all the racial and cultural bashing going on in this thread (as expected with anything China/Chinese related). One such is that I'd like to see how the authorities enforce this ban. Not only that, I'd bet that although the consumption of shark fin would go down due to this deterrence, I doubt the demand would go down as much. A counter argument raised is that shark fins, as a delicacy, aren't addictive, and thus the comparisons to drugs is moot. On the other hand, we consume a great variety of products every day that aren't addictive, and aren't even necessities, but are non sustainable.
Water, for example. The world's fresh water reservoirs are diminishing at an alarming rate. Promises of breakthroughs in desalination and water treatment have yet to bear fruit. Lake Erie is a great example. And for Torontonians, do you dare swim in the murky waters off of waterfront and lakeshore? Ok fine, water isn't alive, you can't torture it, bad example.
Cod fisheries collapse of the 1990s happened here in the U.S. and Canada Atlantic. What was once the largest Cod populations in the world is now barely fighting from the brink of extinction. Is cod addictive? Did we really need to overfish them?
Dolphin Safe Tuna anyone? How did that become a problem in the first place? Super trawlers scraping across the bottom of the ocean picking up everything in its path, pulling dolphins under the water and drowning them. Not only that, but stuff can't grow on the floor for years now cause the underwater soil has been disturbed too much.
Okay, but we're talking about the FINS here, what's up with this obsession of an animals body part?
KFC anyone? What's up with chicken legs and drumsticks? Wild Wings? Buffalo Wings? Or how about ham? Oh that delicious cut of meat from the thigh or leg of a pig. T-bone steak? What about the rest of the cow, like the feet or the tail?
But you're leaving the shark to die alive! Yes, that is horribly cruel, I'm not arguing that it isn't. Animal cruelty is a horrible thing.
On American cooking shows, whenever they do lobster it's almost always throwing it into the pot still alive. That's how it's fresh, otherwise you'd get unbelievably tough meat. A Japanese delicacy is to eat the fish while it is (arguably) still alive.
But it's only for the fin, the FIN, you're wasting the rest of the shark!
As mentioned before in earlier posts, Chinese people are notorious for not wasting any part of the body. Every part of the body has SOME worth as an ingredient for some recipe. Go to any large Chinese supermarket that has a sizeable meat department. Perhaps you can't find everything there, but how many Western recipes have a place for pork/chicken/cow feet? Or their tongue? Tail?
The purpose of this post isn't to defend the unnecessary slaughter of animals for our various anthropogenic purposes, but simply to show that by pointing fingers at each other you're pointing at yourself. Perhaps one day we'll have sharks farmed on mass, being able to slaughter millions of them each year sustainably with no negative impact on the environment. They'll be another chicken, cow, pig, fish. Then we will switch our attention to yet another "insane delicacy" and put on our International police hats and point fingers again.
I support the ban of shark fins so to protect the diversity and integrity of their species. I wholly am against the bashing of cultures and racial discrimination when the root of the problem is greed and not the background of an ethnic group.
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On October 27 2011 14:15 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:12 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 14:05 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:39 IMSmooth wrote:saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces get your racist ass off of team liquid way to put things out of context, bold the whole line the next time. after all, its only been the white people whos supporting shark fin banning, and its the white people that thinks it will save sharks. and apparently white people that thinks that line is racist. its like saying that you'd have to be chinese to not understand the leniency of parenting in the average american household, and i dont. you white people clearly dont understand that the banning of shark fin soup is useless You clearly have no clue if you think banning it won't do anything. Its working pretty well with whaling, so I guess in us "white people" actually have previous examples, facts and evidence to back up our stance that banning it will help lessen the effects. What do you have as proof that bans on shark fins wont do anything to lessen the hunting of sharks? None, only conjecture. what about the fact that china, singapore and hong kong simply will never ban shark fin soup and that possibly 99% of chinese people who currently eat shark fin soup will not stop eating it just to save sharks? if the local chinese in canada can't eat it, they can just eat as much as they can the next time they visit china AND THEY WILL
I think this might be a common view, and honestly: That's not what you hope to achieve when you ban stuff like this. Atleast not directly. What you do achieve is basically:
A: It clears a bit of your conscience and makes you more attractive to voters as a politician. Also created goodwill for the party.
B: It sets an example for the rest of the world to follow, and can be brought up in debates and
creates attention to the subject in international media. Bringing attention to a problem that people might not be very well aware of is exremely important in these kinds of discussions.
A being from the politicians point of view, and B being the general public.
Ofcourse creating a debate in China seems somewhat futile, as it's a dictatorship, and a fairly strict one at that, so you might find yourself in a salt mine if you question Hu Jintao's choice of breakfast . But I guess that's the beaty of it.
All these movements have to start somewhere though.
I assume the same thing happened when whale hunting became illegal. It wasn't just some sort of universal decision. It probably started somewhere and grew, right? Kind of sounds logical.
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I support this ban 100%. The way they harvest the fins is horrific and wasteful. I'm ok with eating animals, but at least show some respect to life and use everything of it as best as you can.
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On October 27 2011 14:28 koreasilver wrote:http://bloomassociation.org/bloom/media/SurveysharkconsumptionhabitsinHong Kong.pdfShow nested quote +Acceptance of not including shark fin soup in a wedding banquet:
Very acceptable 19.6%
Acceptable 58.8%
Not so acceptable 16.5%
Not acceptable at all 5.1%
Perception of shark population size:
Growing 1.5%
The same 9.6%
Declining 88.9%
Feeling about eating endangered fish:
Very comfortable 1.5%
A little comfortable 2.1%
Neither comfortable nor uncomfortable 29.9%
Not so comfortable 38.9%
Not comfortable at all 27.6
Support for the prohibition of the import of shark fins to Hong Kong:
Strong support 31.1%
Moderate support 54.2%
Weak support 11.4%
Not support at all 3.3%
Perception of the quality of the HK marine environment:
Excellent 1.0%
Good 13.4%
Not so good 63.6%
No good at all 21.9%
My interpretation of this poll is three things:
1) Hong Kong citizens are aware and concerned about the environment
2) Hong Kong citizens are uncomfortable with eating endangered fish and would be okay a ban
3) Hong Kong parents would be okay with having a traditional dish, a symbol of status and wealth, in their son's/daughter's most important day despite the cost and moral obligations they may have.
#3 is arguable since, for all you know, their survey demographic could be of those ages 50+ that are more concerned about their children being seen as "oh shit their family is so baller that they got shark fin soup at their wedding even though everyone knows it's so damn expensive since they're cracking down on illegal fishing and greatly diminishing the supply" than concerned about shark species integrity and ocean ecosystems.
Like why the hell are limos, hummers, escalades, sports cars, etc, such a "status" car for a wedding even though we all know they pollute so damn much. And don't tell me air pollution isn't a big thing. And don't tell me that "oh it's just one car" ... well for that same argument it's just one bowl of soup with a tiny shard of fin the size of your tooth shredded up and splattered in chicken broth. You have fifty cars showing up to your wedding, shoulda told them all to walk or bicycle.
Of course I'm still supporting the ban on shark fin. Wasteful and unnecessary killing of endangered keystone species is still bad.
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It would be fine if the other meat of the shark was being used/cooked/sold but it isnt. It is such a waste and in human when fishers cut off the fins and throw the shark back into the water. It is illegal in Australia but people still cut the fins off.
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Completely agree with the ban. I'm not put off by the brutal nature of the industry, but we're heading in a direction where we're harvesting a resource faster than it can replenish itself in the wild. Humans are ignorant wasteful creatures by nature whose lives revolve around money not necessarily because we want it to, but rather because it's become a necessity. In the end that will be our undoing. How long it takes to reach that end will depend on how well we manage our natural resources.
We can ban it now and soften the blow or we can wait until the hammer drops and we find ourselves in a cycle where sharks become increasingly rare in the oceans and thus the price of the soup goes up. There will be more money to be made and more boats will fish for fin until we're forced to ban it because so many species of shark have become red listed. At that point we would have reached a crisis where the remainder of the population can be decimated by poachers. I recall a story very recently of thousands of shark corpses being dumped at the bottom of a protected area. If people can do something like that under our noses they are capable of putting the nail in the coffin.
Cultures and traditions are important, but they are not more important than the well-being of all. Global management is very much a utilitarian world where at some point you have to step in and moderate for that well-being. The needs of many outweigh the needs of the few. In America it was our culture for hundreds of years that women were subservient members of the population and were incapable of doing anything as well as a man. This reasoning stripped them of certain rights and it wasn't until very recently in the grand scale of things that someone challenged that culture and told us we were wrong. If it took that long to give equality to a nation based on that very principle I can't imagine it would take much at all to convince people to remove one dish from their diet.
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On October 27 2011 10:18 kidcrash wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 10:12 saocyn wrote:On October 27 2011 10:03 Rasun wrote:
I recently got the chance to dive on a coral reef in the Florida Keys and swim with Black Tip Reef, and Nurse sharks. Gorgeous animals and really really cool. The thought of what people do to them and then throw them back to die is disgusting. I don't have an issue with controlled fishing for sharks to make a traditional food and just killing the shark humanely after you catch it.
However catching the shark, cutting off its fins while it is still alive and throwing back in the ocean to slowly bleed or suffocate to death is horrifying. Why the hell do they even do that? Why not just kill the shark quickly and use the entire thing. I don't get it, its a completely idiotic thing to do, not to mention cruel. well you're an animal right's activist. not everyone believes that and not everyone especially those who take part in catching, hunting and harvesting them see it that way. for those who make a profit off of it, it IS WORK. and some people don't have a need for anything but the finn so why would they want to carry around extra luggage when they just want the fin? some people get lazy when they finally catch the shark they just rip the fin and dump the rest. also not everyone shares the same belief as you about doing things "humanely" or "ethically" some people see it as the fish dying anyway, so why does it matter how you kill it? you're still killing it. not that i'm saying it's RIGHT, i'm just saying it to point out the other point of view of the people who do this. your argument is based on everyone being not wasteful but we all know this is impossible. if you want to speak of not being wasteful you should first tackle the problem of world hunger. half the food we waste and throw away in america and probably all over the world could probably solve world hunger by now. you're arguing 1 instance when it's a much larger problem than that. so it's kind of stupid to just point 1 finger at 1 instance. when the concept of being "wasteful" runs in almost any and every food production. These are examples of what are called nirvana fallacies. When solutions to problems are rejected because they are not perfect. Examples (from Wikipedia): Posit (fallacious) These anti-drunk driving ad campaigns are not going to work. People are still going to drink and drive no matter what. Rebuttal Complete eradication of drunk driving is not the expected outcome. The goal is reduction. Posit (fallacious) Seat belts are a bad idea. People are still going to die in car wrecks. Rebuttal While seat belts could never save 100% of people involved in car accidents, the number of lives that would be saved is enough to far outweigh any negative consequences of wearing a seat belt.
no i totally agree, what i stated was a nirvana fallacy, but in this circumstance it's not a fallacy because it can't be done, obviously the only way to interpret if it's a nirvana fallacy or not is if it can actually be implemented and on a case by case basis. but the difference with this discussion is we're talking about a very REAL limited supply of sharks. while my analogy of solving world hunger and comparing it to this, isn't quite accurate and obviously impossible to tackle. what i mainly intend to prove against his point was, it's just kind of stupid to think everyone is not wasteful and that only the chinese who harvest the sharks, are which was the implication since he clearly as a bias towards sharks. this very specific instance is quite different on the other hand than that analogy that was trying to prove that point. those instances are also very specific generally because they are geared towards increasing the percent chance of survival on a person's life.
what i respond to you is, since we understand shark fin is on the verge of extinction, and we can come to agree that every single one of them counts, the only way we could save them (assuming that's the end goal here) is if america obviously takes a portion out and protects them. now i want to note i'm not a marine biologist expert nor claim to know a whole lot about fish and the sea in general, but what i do know is, since there is a want for it, it's not going to stop the people who want it, especially not a whole country like asia. and even more so the wealthy / people who are accustomed to the cultural concept of completion in a meal and value it as a status symbol. cause obviously america/canada doesn't control every water they dwell in and since we can't take them out of the eco system to preserve them (according to biologist who believe it will destroy the eco system they live in) makes it very hard to put this ban in place and also get another country to agree to this.
but back to my next point, i'm simply saying
1. banning will increase the likely hood of people trying to obtain sharkfin immediately. someone gave a supply and demand example earlier and is entirely correct. does that mean we shouldn't ban it? absolutely not. cause what we have here is a realistic limited supply of shark fin left on the verge of extinction, if even stopping 1 more from getting killed, it adds up BIG TIME. everyone single one counts when it comes to this, and especially in the greater things of an eco system surviving.
2. don't forget i'm chinese, BUT it does NOT mean it's ok to allow the whole world to sit there and suffer due to 1 countries food delicacy. it is absolutely right for any country to respond if and when a matter has impact on them and on the entire world at hand. while i do know that some chinese folks and others feel it is a direct insult and often times misunderstood as racism, at the end of the day it's only for the greater good of the world.
now obviously there's a caveat. if the people who do agree to banning this but won't agree to say for example in a distance future that happens to ban a distinct staple in a meal representing a country or race then you sir, are a hypocrite and a racist. obviously the intention of banning it does MATTER.
whether you come from a racist intention or you come from a world saving intention.
- say if chicken were to become extinct in the near future for americans which probably isn't possible
- or cow
- or even turkey
- and for jokes, whatever the fuck is in hotdog
if you can whole heartedly agree to the banning of those things and they become extinct and you're not a hypocrite / racist i can take your opinion seriously.
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what i don't get in this thread is the use of the concept "not being a wasteful" as a justification to why we should implement this ban. don't get me wrong i'm all for this ban but people are for this ban for all the wrong reasons. most people's sole argument is, it's ok to kill it as long as you're not wasteful. wrong. it's not ok to kill ANY on the verge of extinct animals at ALL for ANY reason wasteful or NOT. because this affects every country when 1 animal becomes extinct so there is a greater cause of good here.
and most of you who complain about wastefulness are actually hypocritical in this regard, and that's probably not your fault either since human nature is wasteful in general as we progress in this day and age. so for those of you who point to 1 instance and point fingers at chinese being wasteful soley for doing this, i say, you're a hypocrite. i honestly doubt you all are pure perfect environmental friendly people who can honestly say, i am environemtnal friendly in all areas of my life and have the right to point fingers.
just by being in america and a western culture or ANY technologically advanced culture, you're already wasteful.
- do you use paper at all?
- do you drive or require use of gasoline in anyway?
- do you do laundry?
- how much electricity are you expending on technology?
- how much water you do you use?
- do you eat out at all or take food to go?
- do you have alot of possessions?
- do you "throwaway" anything in the garbage?
- do you finish your food or do you eat everything on your plate 100% of the time?
just by the mere fact of doing any of those things can prove you being wasteful. just by the pure nature of how our society has developed already proves your wasteful if you take part in it. none of you are perfect so its retarded to me to hear people point fingers at this 1 instance and say, yeah you're a chinese person doing this, chinese are wasteful. or using it as a sole justification to stop this.
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So I don't know anything about the sustainability of leopard sharks, or any other shark species suitable for making soup other than what was posited in the first 5 pages and last 2 pages of this thread. That being said, I really enjoy shark fin soup, and it is by far the most sane and palatable of the classical Chinese delicacies. There is almost no way I could see somebody finding shark fin soup disgusting, as shark fin, itself, has almost no flavor. People who make the argument that "it's disgusting anyway, so it's a no-brainer" have either never tried a well-made bowl of shark fin soup, are lying (for some motivation or other), or don't know good food.
Its appeal lies in its feathery and porous, yet firm and slightly crunchy texture. A comparably classy delicacy would be birds-nest, which is basically just hardened bird saliva. This seems a little more wacky imo.
Hunting for shark fins is undoubtedly wasteful, bad for the ecosystem, and in many other ways unethical, but by that token, so too are so many of the things we consume. Not many of these things, however, are as culturally identifiable and actually enjoyable as shark fin.
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I do not think that "excess cruelty" or "wastefulness" are particularly useful arguments in this circumstance. It seems too arbitrary in the context of what happens to other livestock commonly consumed.
I think the only principal that a non-vegetarian can use to support a ban on shark fin soup is a principal which has been widely adopted in all 1st world countries.
If a practice will lead to the extinction of a species, then that practice should be restricted to the degree required to ensure that the species does not go extinct.
This principal supports the ban of:
1. Certain types of whaling.
2. Harvesting of certain sharks for eating shark fin soup.
3. Poaching endangered species.
etc.
This principal does not restrict the consumption of non-endangered animals:
1. Eating chicken, other livestock, etc.
2. Seal hunting
etc.
So it comes down to whether the farming of shark fins is a sustainable practice. The debate that should be going on in this thread is how sustainable the current shark population is at current harvesting rates. If the sharks are endangered, or on their way there, then the solution is to restrict the farming and/or consumption of shark fin soup until a) a method of farming sharks sustainably is created, or b) the shark populations recover to larger, more sustainable amounts.
The application of this principal to shark-fin soup is not discriminatory - it is a broad principal which already is in place in all of the first world, and most if not all of the rest of the world. It is this principal which outlaws the hunting of endangered animals like the White Rhino and the Panda. It is this principal which prevents you from tearing down your house if an endangered bird makes its nest in the chimney, until the proper authorities can relocate it. This is a principal which everyone is aware of. If this is the principal being applied by the law-makers, then there are no grounds from which to cry discrimination.
What confuses me is why people who eat shark fin soup are trying to protect their right to eat it right now, at the expense of their ability to consume it once the species is extinct. Shouldn't people who love shark fin soup be supporting the call to ban it, in the interim, before irreversible damage is done to shark populations?
I suspect that people against the ban do not actually believe the evidence. There is no other rational ground for shark fin soup consumers to oppose the ban.
So discuss that instead. This ethics focus from the OP is misplaced.
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Ban away. I can't comment on the cruelty or wastefulness (taking only the fin) of the sharks since I eat meat, but when we're dealing with the extinction of a species... forget culture, the shit needs to stop, immediately.
On October 27 2011 18:20 saocyn wrote:
now obviously there's a caveat. if the people who do agree to banning this but won't agree to say for example in a distance future that happens to ban a distinct staple in a meal representing a country or race then you sir, are a hypocrite and a racist. obviously the intention of banning it does MATTER.
whether you come from a racist intention or you come from a world saving intention.
- say if chicken were to become extinct in the near future for americans which probably isn't possible
- or cow
- or even turkey
- and for jokes, whatever the fuck is in hotdog
if you can whole heartedly agree to the banning of those things and they become extinct and you're not a hypocrite / racist i can take your opinion seriously.
None of these are really comparable. We eat chicken, cow, hot dogs and whatever every day. Shark fin soup is a delicacy, people eat it only a few times a year, if that. I mean, if there was a banning of something central like rice, I guarantee you people would actually show sympathy for the culture problem.
If you had to take something away from us once a year, like say, turkey from Thanksgiving? Not a big deal for me, certainly not worth fucking over entire ecosystems.
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EPT
