It is a fact that the shark population is diminishing because of fin harvesting. Sharks are unable to reproduce at the speed the sharks are killed. Obviously, this presents a threat to the eco-system as it is now.
Another issue is just the brutal way of cutting of the fin, while it's alive, and then just throwing the rest of the shark back into the water. You can probably find countless documentaries showing this. I my opinion, this is animal cruelty. There is nothing wrong with butchering animals, since we use them to feed ourselves and that's just nature. But, since we are "humans", it is possible for us to figure out humane ways to butcher other animals. And this definetly is not one of them.
I don't have a problem with people eating or harvesting shark fins. I have a problem with the way it is done. Now I don't have a solution, since I'm no shark expert. Breeding them for the purpose of fins could be one, just like you breed meat kettle. But as far as I know, it's not that easy to breed sharks.
On October 28 2011 00:41 Harbinger631 wrote: I think it's funny how people think that shark finning or even human existence is meaningful when you compare it to the 6 billion year history of the planet.
One day the sun will burn out, Earth will be an iceball, and no one will care whether or not the sharks were finned or not.
Whether or not the loss of sharks will have an impact on my life is what I'm worried about.
Of course, if humans have some sort of supernatural purpose/responibility towards the Earth then that's another matter, but if all we're talking about is naturalism, then yeah, screw the sharks. It's not important in the long run.
I am sorry that it's me who has to inform you that it's even worse! We are probably heading right towards a heat death of the universe which will make iceball earth look like a birthday party...
But tell me something: why are you even "worried" about the impact on your life given that you will be dead long before the sun burns out and nothing matters in the long run? Isn't that strange?
Fortunately your "argument" is a complete nonstarter, because you cannot at all conclude from the fact that nothing matters on a cosmic scale of billions of years, that nothing matters at all.
On October 28 2011 01:02 Maekchu wrote: It is a fact that the shark population is diminishing because of fin harvesting. Sharks are unable to reproduce at the speed the sharks are killed. Obviously, this presents a threat to the eco-system as it is now.
Another issue is just the brutal way of cutting of the fin, while it's alive, and then just throwing the rest of the shark back into the water. You can probably find countless documentaries showing this. I my opinion, this is animal cruelty. There is nothing wrong with butchering animals, since we use them to feed ourselves and that's just nature. But, since we are "humans", it is possible for us to figure out humane ways to butcher other animals. And this definetly is not one of them.
I don't have a problem with people eating or harvesting shark fins. I have a problem with the way it is done. Now I don't have a solution, since I'm no shark expert. Breeding them for the purpose of fins could be one, just like you breed meat kettle. But as far as I know, it's not that easy to breed sharks.
Sharks are very......lonely(?) creatures, probably hard to breed.
Now Shark Steak, is actually decent, not the best tasting fish in the world though. But I don't dislike it, abit more chewy than I'd actually like my fish
On October 28 2011 01:02 Maekchu wrote: It is a fact that the shark population is diminishing because of fin harvesting. Sharks are unable to reproduce at the speed the sharks are killed. Obviously, this presents a threat to the eco-system as it is now.
Another issue is just the brutal way of cutting of the fin, while it's alive, and then just throwing the rest of the shark back into the water. You can probably find countless documentaries showing this. I my opinion, this is animal cruelty. There is nothing wrong with butchering animals, since we use them to feed ourselves and that's just nature. But, since we are "humans", it is possible for us to figure out humane ways to butcher other animals. And this definetly is not one of them.
I don't have a problem with people eating or harvesting shark fins. I have a problem with the way it is done. Now I don't have a solution, since I'm no shark expert. Breeding them for the purpose of fins could be one, just like you breed meat kettle. But as far as I know, it's not that easy to breed sharks.
Sharks are very......lonely(?) creatures, probably hard to breed.
Now Shark Steak, is actually decent, not the best tasting fish in the world though. But I don't dislike it
Like I said, I'm no shark expert. And breeding them is probably not how to do it, since if it was. People would probably already have done it.
I think the solution is will be in part political (Politicians recognize this is an issue), somekind of fishing control, as well as decrease of consumption of the Chinese people (whether be that somekind of national campaign in order to educate people of the conditions it is harvested, or be that somekind of limit on what restaurants sell, as well as some border control on fins).
But really, this will probably not happen. And we will maybe not see any action done before the situation is as bad as it was when the Tigers were decreasing in population because of hunting.
it actually is an issue of over hunting though, the people who do the harvesting actually harvest more sharks than make it to maturity. it may not seem like it would be that many sharks, if you only take into account canada, but if you take into account the world wide usage, thats a ton of sharks shark populations have dropped 90% over the last 30 years (^ Pratt, H. L. Jr.; Gruber, S. H. & Taniuchi, T. (1990). Elasmobranchs as living resources: Advances in the biology, ecology, systematics, and the status of the fisheries. NOAA Tech Rept. (90)----as found on wikipedia.
On October 28 2011 00:41 Harbinger631 wrote: I think it's funny how people think that shark finning or even human existence is meaningful when you compare it to the 6 billion year history of the planet.
One day the sun will burn out, Earth will be an iceball, and no one will care whether or not the sharks were finned or not.
Whether or not the loss of sharks will have an impact on my life is what I'm worried about.
Of course, if humans have some sort of supernatural purpose/responibility towards the Earth then that's another matter, but if all we're talking about is naturalism, then yeah, screw the sharks. It's not important in the long run.
Sharks have lived through countless era's, and are the reason our ecosystem has a balance. Think lion king, circle of life, but undersea. If you eat fish of any kind, enjoy the ocean or want shark week to remain on discovery channel not the History channel.. You should want to save the sharks. Even if your reason for wanting to save sharks is immensely selfish.
On October 28 2011 01:02 Maekchu wrote: It is a fact that the shark population is diminishing because of fin harvesting. Sharks are unable to reproduce at the speed the sharks are killed. Obviously, this presents a threat to the eco-system as it is now.
Another issue is just the brutal way of cutting of the fin, while it's alive, and then just throwing the rest of the shark back into the water. You can probably find countless documentaries showing this. I my opinion, this is animal cruelty. There is nothing wrong with butchering animals, since we use them to feed ourselves and that's just nature. But, since we are "humans", it is possible for us to figure out humane ways to butcher other animals. And this definetly is not one of them.
I don't have a problem with people eating or harvesting shark fins. I have a problem with the way it is done. Now I don't have a solution, since I'm no shark expert. Breeding them for the purpose of fins could be one, just like you breed meat kettle. But as far as I know, it's not that easy to breed sharks.
Sharks are very......lonely(?) creatures, probably hard to breed.
Now Shark Steak, is actually decent, not the best tasting fish in the world though. But I don't dislike it
Like I said, I'm no shark expert. And breeding them is probably not how to do it, since if it was. People would probably already have done it.
I think the solution is will be in part political (Politicians recognize this is an issue), somekind of fishing control, as well as decrease of consumption of the Chinese people (whether be that somekind of national campaign in order to educate people of the conditions it is harvested, or be that somekind of limit on what restaurants sell, as well as some border control on fins).
But really, this will probably not happen. And we will maybe not see any action done before the situation is as bad as it was when the Tigers were decreasing in population because of hunting.
Leving a Controled Sea product tax is one way to do it, just so you jack up the prices so demand falls, Controlled Legal fishing is another, like....50 grand for 1000 shark kills? some thing like that. and anything over is fine-able
On October 27 2011 02:22 Malpraxis wrote: Hello, Team Liquid.
I have been lurking this site for some years now, and my god, my first post won't be about Starcraft. You see, I am a biology major and I've worked with sharks and rays personally. Urged by this thread, I thought I'd post some ecological/purely scientific insight about this very pressing issue. The thread seems to have turned into a discussion about ethical principles, and while these are important, you cannot ignore the natural history of the animals themselves. Brace yourselves for a wall of text.
You see, marine food chains and webs do not function like terrestrial ecosystems at all. On land, primary producers like plants make up the majority of available biomass, while each upper level decreases in biomass due to energy being lost in each organism's metabolism. In the sea, however, the primary producers are consumed so fast that the energy pyramid is inverted. Top predators (like sharks) make up for most biomass in the average marine ecosystem. This has several implications.
Top-down control of population size becomes much more important, since there are way more predator-prey relationships. The disappearance or decline of a shark species thus, has almost unpredictable, complex impacts on the ecosystem. For example populations of the species predated by sharks (which are many) would at first skyrocket, since they'll have no pressure. As these large populations consume all their limiting resources, they too would decline in time, or if their growth is too rapid, they could even become locally extinct (ecologists call this an oscillating event). This process then repeats itself in the lower links of the food chain. To make a long story short, this leads to a progressive loss of diversity in the seas and an explosion of jellyfish populations.
Fishing is not like other forms of food production. Animals aren't grown for the purpose of human consumption, but rather they are harvested from the environment. This is like me going to the forest, then killing and eating a grizzly bear. Sharks and rays also have another thing that makes them even more vulnerable. Most species are viviparous: They breed slowly, have a slow sexual maturation (30+ years in deep-sea species), and produce few young per litter. They cannot be sustainably harvested at the current rates we are doing it, and not without some kind of control.
So...sharks are important. Their decline could lead to a collapse of all fisheries in general. That said, the sharking industry is also the job of thousands of people who will lose their way of life if this business continues unchecked. So you see, the conservation of sharks is necessary to preserve them both as a species and as a resource. Breeding sharks in captivity is an unreal solution. What we need are temporary bans, intelligent use of the resource, using the WHOLE SHARK giving the guys some time to recuperate and fulfill their role in the ecosystem. Because right now, it is pretty much a massacre. Not only from finning, but also as bycatch from other fisheries (sharks and rays make up to 95% of the bycatch in shrimp trawling, at least in my country).
Finally, sharks are an old group. They've been around since before the dinosaurs, they have survived pretty much every mass extinction, and the pressure of every sea monster that has ever lived. Wouldn't it be just lame if we were their end?
Thank you.
Edit: Fixed some spelling/grammar errors
Just have to re-re post this for the guy posting above me that thinks sharks are just fish with tasty fins.
On October 27 2011 02:22 Malpraxis wrote: Hello, Team Liquid.
I have been lurking this site for some years now, and my god, my first post won't be about Starcraft. You see, I am a biology major and I've worked with sharks and rays personally. Urged by this thread, I thought I'd post some ecological/purely scientific insight about this very pressing issue. The thread seems to have turned into a discussion about ethical principles, and while these are important, you cannot ignore the natural history of the animals themselves. Brace yourselves for a wall of text.
You see, marine food chains and webs do not function like terrestrial ecosystems at all. On land, primary producers like plants make up the majority of available biomass, while each upper level decreases in biomass due to energy being lost in each organism's metabolism. In the sea, however, the primary producers are consumed so fast that the energy pyramid is inverted. Top predators (like sharks) make up for most biomass in the average marine ecosystem. This has several implications.
Top-down control of population size becomes much more important, since there are way more predator-prey relationships. The disappearance or decline of a shark species thus, has almost unpredictable, complex impacts on the ecosystem. For example populations of the species predated by sharks (which are many) would at first skyrocket, since they'll have no pressure. As these large populations consume all their limiting resources, they too would decline in time, or if their growth is too rapid, they could even become locally extinct (ecologists call this an oscillating event). This process then repeats itself in the lower links of the food chain. To make a long story short, this leads to a progressive loss of diversity in the seas and an explosion of jellyfish populations.
Fishing is not like other forms of food production. Animals aren't grown for the purpose of human consumption, but rather they are harvested from the environment. This is like me going to the forest, then killing and eating a grizzly bear. Sharks and rays also have another thing that makes them even more vulnerable. Most species are viviparous: They breed slowly, have a slow sexual maturation (30+ years in deep-sea species), and produce few young per litter. They cannot be sustainably harvested at the current rates we are doing it, and not without some kind of control.
So...sharks are important. Their decline could lead to a collapse of all fisheries in general. That said, the sharking industry is also the job of thousands of people who will lose their way of life if this business continues unchecked. So you see, the conservation of sharks is necessary to preserve them both as a species and as a resource. Breeding sharks in captivity is an unreal solution. What we need are temporary bans, intelligent use of the resource, using the WHOLE SHARK giving the guys some time to recuperate and fulfill their role in the ecosystem. Because right now, it is pretty much a massacre. Not only from finning, but also as bycatch from other fisheries (sharks and rays make up to 95% of the bycatch in shrimp trawling, at least in my country).
Finally, sharks are an old group. They've been around since before the dinosaurs, they have survived pretty much every mass extinction, and the pressure of every sea monster that has ever lived. Wouldn't it be just lame if we were their end?
Thank you.
Edit: Fixed some spelling/grammar errors
Just have to re-re post this for the guy posting above me that thinks sharks are just fish with tasty fins.
of course they are, but they have very tasty fins, like I said, not completely against the ban, just saying the fins tasted good while it lasted
On October 28 2011 01:02 Maekchu wrote: It is a fact that the shark population is diminishing because of fin harvesting. Sharks are unable to reproduce at the speed the sharks are killed. Obviously, this presents a threat to the eco-system as it is now.
Another issue is just the brutal way of cutting of the fin, while it's alive, and then just throwing the rest of the shark back into the water. You can probably find countless documentaries showing this. I my opinion, this is animal cruelty. There is nothing wrong with butchering animals, since we use them to feed ourselves and that's just nature. But, since we are "humans", it is possible for us to figure out humane ways to butcher other animals. And this definetly is not one of them.
I don't have a problem with people eating or harvesting shark fins. I have a problem with the way it is done. Now I don't have a solution, since I'm no shark expert. Breeding them for the purpose of fins could be one, just like you breed meat kettle. But as far as I know, it's not that easy to breed sharks.
Sharks are very......lonely(?) creatures, probably hard to breed.
Now Shark Steak, is actually decent, not the best tasting fish in the world though. But I don't dislike it
Like I said, I'm no shark expert. And breeding them is probably not how to do it, since if it was. People would probably already have done it.
I think the solution is will be in part political (Politicians recognize this is an issue), somekind of fishing control, as well as decrease of consumption of the Chinese people (whether be that somekind of national campaign in order to educate people of the conditions it is harvested, or be that somekind of limit on what restaurants sell, as well as some border control on fins).
But really, this will probably not happen. And we will maybe not see any action done before the situation is as bad as it was when the Tigers were decreasing in population because of hunting.
Leving a Controled Sea product tax is one way to do it, just so you jack up the prices so demand falls, Controlled Legal fishing is another, like....50 grand for 1000 shark kills? some thing like that. and anything over is fine-able
I actually think it is a better idea to make people aware of the fact that their eating habits are the direct cause of the extinction of many shark species. I feel that this is the only thing that can save them in the long run, but knowing humanity I fear the future of the sharks is looking rather grim.
On October 28 2011 01:02 Maekchu wrote: It is a fact that the shark population is diminishing because of fin harvesting. Sharks are unable to reproduce at the speed the sharks are killed. Obviously, this presents a threat to the eco-system as it is now.
Another issue is just the brutal way of cutting of the fin, while it's alive, and then just throwing the rest of the shark back into the water. You can probably find countless documentaries showing this. I my opinion, this is animal cruelty. There is nothing wrong with butchering animals, since we use them to feed ourselves and that's just nature. But, since we are "humans", it is possible for us to figure out humane ways to butcher other animals. And this definetly is not one of them.
I don't have a problem with people eating or harvesting shark fins. I have a problem with the way it is done. Now I don't have a solution, since I'm no shark expert. Breeding them for the purpose of fins could be one, just like you breed meat kettle. But as far as I know, it's not that easy to breed sharks.
Sharks are very......lonely(?) creatures, probably hard to breed.
Now Shark Steak, is actually decent, not the best tasting fish in the world though. But I don't dislike it
Like I said, I'm no shark expert. And breeding them is probably not how to do it, since if it was. People would probably already have done it.
I think the solution is will be in part political (Politicians recognize this is an issue), somekind of fishing control, as well as decrease of consumption of the Chinese people (whether be that somekind of national campaign in order to educate people of the conditions it is harvested, or be that somekind of limit on what restaurants sell, as well as some border control on fins).
But really, this will probably not happen. And we will maybe not see any action done before the situation is as bad as it was when the Tigers were decreasing in population because of hunting.
Leving a Controled Sea product tax is one way to do it, just so you jack up the prices so demand falls, Controlled Legal fishing is another, like....50 grand for 1000 shark kills? some thing like that. and anything over is fine-able
I actually think it is a better idea to make people aware of the fact that their eating habits are the direct cause of the extinction of many shark species. I feel that this is the only thing that can save them in the long run, but knowing humanity I fear the future of the sharks is looking rather grim.
Well on a side note you can't really mass indulge in sea fish. since mercury is pretty bad for you.
On October 27 2011 01:09 Hikari wrote: [...] To my knowledge, cruel harvesting of shark fins do not happen in Canada. Should we also ban fur trade just because parts of the world take fur in a cruel manner?
I never understood the argument "Y is as bad as X and nothing is being done against Y so X should stay the same".
In fact there was a big campaign against fur with naked women with texts like "I'd rather be naked then wear fur" or something.
On October 27 2011 01:09 Hikari wrote: [...] How about making it a law to help the injured since people in China simply let that little girl suffer after getting rolled over by 2 cars? It is not a Toronto problem.
Hm, don't you have a law like this? In germany you get up to one year of jail time if you don't help someone if it doesn't put you in extreme danger.
On October 27 2011 01:09 Hikari wrote: [...] Why ban shark fin trading when the city should just ban the trade of tobaco? Cigarettes are known to cause nothing but trouble, and I see cigs to be far more inhumane (omg: people are suffering from cancer from 2nd hand smoking!) than shark fins.
There are many laws restricting the use of tobacco already.
On October 27 2011 01:09 Hikari wrote: [...] Politicians are simply wasting time, putting up an act, pretending they just performed a good deed for the community while affecting many chinese eateries and medicine shops.
You don't get it don't you? They don't perform a good deed for the community, they perform a good deed for the SHARKS. Do animals even count for you? You seem to not even take them into account at all...
On October 27 2011 01:09 Hikari wrote: [...] Take chickens for example: a lot of them are raised in small cages the size of a shoe box: that is not very humane right? Does that mean we should ban all chicken sale, including those raise in free ranges?
Chicken normally comes from your own country, so there is a reasonable expectation of a regulation to be effective (there are laws regarding the minimal size of the area of each chicken in germany but they should be expanded ihmo). Also they are not extinct.
On October 27 2011 01:09 Hikari wrote: [...] The problem is there but is approached in the completely wrong method. If I am an international shark fin trader I wouldn't give a shit about the ban, and maybe secretly rejoice since I can try to start and underground sharkfin trade to those in Toronto and possible establishing a monopoly. To top it off, as shark fin trading is illegal anyway, might as well as sell them the "real" illegal stuff from Africa instead of buying fins off Canadian fisheries.
I think it makes sense to compare shark fins to ivory. Yes there are illegal traders but on the whole I think the ban really did work out well.
On October 28 2011 00:41 Harbinger631 wrote: I think it's funny how people think that shark finning or even human existence is meaningful when you compare it to the 6 billion year history of the planet.
One day the sun will burn out, Earth will be an iceball, and no one will care whether or not the sharks were finned or not.
Whether or not the loss of sharks will have an impact on my life is what I'm worried about.
Of course, if humans have some sort of supernatural purpose/responibility towards the Earth then that's another matter, but if all we're talking about is naturalism, then yeah, screw the sharks. It's not important in the long run.
Well, one day you're gonna die. So why should we care about what you have to say on the matter?
On October 26 2011 18:17 Sasquatch wrote: I have no problem with people wanting to eat shark fin soup, but currently it is being harvested in a completely insane and unsustainable manner. Greed tends to ruin any good thing.
For reference, here's a piece Gordon Ramsay did on shark fin harvesting:
Shark Fins have no taste. They eat it for stupid reasons. Why are you killing a species for something that has no flavor value.
Only pre-conceived health notions plus to showcase your wealth.
On October 26 2011 18:17 Sasquatch wrote: I have no problem with people wanting to eat shark fin soup, but currently it is being harvested in a completely insane and unsustainable manner. Greed tends to ruin any good thing.
For reference, here's a piece Gordon Ramsay did on shark fin harvesting:
On October 26 2011 18:17 Sasquatch wrote: I have no problem with people wanting to eat shark fin soup, but currently it is being harvested in a completely insane and unsustainable manner. Greed tends to ruin any good thing.
For reference, here's a piece Gordon Ramsay did on shark fin harvesting:
On October 26 2011 18:17 Sasquatch wrote: I have no problem with people wanting to eat shark fin soup, but currently it is being harvested in a completely insane and unsustainable manner. Greed tends to ruin any good thing.
For reference, here's a piece Gordon Ramsay did on shark fin harvesting:
Shark Fins have no taste. They eat it for stupid reasons. Why are you killing a species for something that has no flavor value.
Only pre-conceived health notions plus to showcase your wealth.
I know you won't take my word for it but it really is something else, you should have it before commenting, it's pretty good.
Your just tasting the soup stock. the fin has no taste it would be just as good as if you had generic noodles in the soup.
Don't try explaining it to him, he won't understand. Might as well try explaining it to a wall. He'll continue yapping about how good it tastes for the rest of the thread.
On October 26 2011 18:17 Sasquatch wrote: I have no problem with people wanting to eat shark fin soup, but currently it is being harvested in a completely insane and unsustainable manner. Greed tends to ruin any good thing.
For reference, here's a piece Gordon Ramsay did on shark fin harvesting:
Shark Fins have no taste. They eat it for stupid reasons. Why are you killing a species for something that has no flavor value.
Only pre-conceived health notions plus to showcase your wealth.
I know you won't take my word for it but it really is something else, you should have it before commenting, it's pretty good.
Your just tasting the soup stock. the fin has no taste it would be just as good as if you had generic noodles in the soup.
Don't try explaining it to him, he won't understand. Might as well try explaining it to a wall. He'll continue yapping about how good it tastes for the rest of the thread.
On October 26 2011 18:17 Sasquatch wrote: I have no problem with people wanting to eat shark fin soup, but currently it is being harvested in a completely insane and unsustainable manner. Greed tends to ruin any good thing.
For reference, here's a piece Gordon Ramsay did on shark fin harvesting:
Shark Fins have no taste. They eat it for stupid reasons. Why are you killing a species for something that has no flavor value.
Only pre-conceived health notions plus to showcase your wealth.
I know you won't take my word for it but it really is something else, you should have it before commenting, it's pretty good.
Your just tasting the soup stock. the fin has no taste it would be just as good as if you had generic noodles in the soup.
Don't try explaining it to him, he won't understand. Might as well try explaining it to a wall. He'll continue yapping about how good it tastes for the rest of the thread.
You make seem like I am lying to you
And so what if it tastes good? And seems like many people who has actually tasted it before said it's really nothing special.
EPT
