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On October 27 2011 13:04 Elite__ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:00 LanTAs wrote:On October 27 2011 12:53 Elite__ wrote:
I can't even fathom how one of the arguments to keep shark fin soup legal is that its a cultural tradition. From the video's I saw, the sharks are being brutalized and are then just thrown back into the ocean to rot at the bottom where they cant move because they don't have their fins, and since they are in the water its not like they are suffocating, they just lay their until they have this terrible, long death.
. Cows, Pigs, Chickens, and other forms of major livestock owned by major companies are pretty much tortured throughout their whole lives. How can it still be legal when they are brutalized for many years and then finally killed and shipped to the nearest local market? YOU KNOW WHAT?WHY DON'T WE ALL BECOME ALL BLOODY VEGETARIANS?"No, because nothing can replace the taste and texture of meat. Once you try bacon, you never go back." See what's going on here? Cows, pigs and chickens are not endangered and rapidly vanishing as a race. There's a difference. Brutalizing them in the process of turning them into something edible is just one of the problems. And i'm pretty sure animals like chickens don't have their wings chopped off to be set out into the wild again. They are killed completely, even if it is in a terrible way.
so one day, when the human population becomes 9E10 and just because of our mass consumption every other animal in the world becomes endangered/extinct, you really think that everyone is willing to become vegetarian?
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On October 27 2011 13:12 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:11 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 12:58 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 12:34 shawster wrote:
good, ban that shit.
the way that shark fins are harvested disgust me. i don't see a problem with them infringing upon the rights of the minority. culture isn't an excuse if it causes that much damage to ecosystems and shark populations. i would ban consumption of any meat or product that is harvested unjustly and harmfully.
it's fucking stupid that people are bringing race into discussion. this has nothing to do with race, retards. this ban is about stopping damage to shark populations and stopping unethical finning of sharks. i understand that it hurts some chinese culture but unfortunately i would say culture is less important than the issue at hand.
if eating a delicacy is more important to you than stopping poaching and dwindling shark populations then you're kind of selfish. cut off indulgence and do some good will ya?
the sad part about this discussion is that if i say i'm 100% chinese then i'll be taken more seriously. what makes you think banning shark fin eating in toronto will stop shark pouching? the way i see it, china, hong kong, singapore will NEVER ban shark fin soup. if the rest of the world bans it, then that just means there will be much more supply for shark fin soup for chinese people living in these chinese countries; the price of the soup wont go down as it will be balanced by the decreasing population of sharks and just by the vast amount of overseas people who will travel to these legal areas JUST to be able to eat shark fin soup. imo, countries banning shark fin soup is just decreasing their GDP and making chinese countries richer Just because another country is being environmentally irresponsible does not mean we have the right to be irresponsible too simply because "they're doing it so it doesn't matter if we do it too". Every jurisdiction where the sale of shark fins or the prevention of shark finning occurs is a small victory in the grand scheme of things. except u havent read my post and understand that the ban isnt gonna decrease poaching
It will!
If there is even one person who as a result of this ban stops eating shark fin soup then IT WILL DECREASE DEMAND.
On October 27 2011 13:16 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:04 Elite__ wrote:On October 27 2011 13:00 LanTAs wrote:On October 27 2011 12:53 Elite__ wrote:
I can't even fathom how one of the arguments to keep shark fin soup legal is that its a cultural tradition. From the video's I saw, the sharks are being brutalized and are then just thrown back into the ocean to rot at the bottom where they cant move because they don't have their fins, and since they are in the water its not like they are suffocating, they just lay their until they have this terrible, long death.
. Cows, Pigs, Chickens, and other forms of major livestock owned by major companies are pretty much tortured throughout their whole lives. How can it still be legal when they are brutalized for many years and then finally killed and shipped to the nearest local market? YOU KNOW WHAT?WHY DON'T WE ALL BECOME ALL BLOODY VEGETARIANS?"No, because nothing can replace the taste and texture of meat. Once you try bacon, you never go back." See what's going on here? Cows, pigs and chickens are not endangered and rapidly vanishing as a race. There's a difference. Brutalizing them in the process of turning them into something edible is just one of the problems. And i'm pretty sure animals like chickens don't have their wings chopped off to be set out into the wild again. They are killed completely, even if it is in a terrible way. so one day, when the human population becomes 9E10 and just because of our mass consumption every other animal in the world becomes endangered/extinct, you really think that everyone is willing to become vegetarian?
We have the capacity to breed chickens and cows to meet demand. You can't breed sharks like this it simply does not work. The only way to stop the extinction of the shark species is by stopping consumption. To stop extinction of cows and chickens you simply breed more of them.
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On October 27 2011 13:00 LanTAs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 12:53 Elite__ wrote:
I can't even fathom how one of the arguments to keep shark fin soup legal is that its a cultural tradition. From the video's I saw, the sharks are being brutalized and are then just thrown back into the ocean to rot at the bottom where they cant move because they don't have their fins, and since they are in the water its not like they are suffocating, they just lay their until they have this terrible, long death.
. Cows, Pigs, Chickens, and other forms of major livestock owned by major companies are pretty much tortured throughout their whole lives. How can it still be legal when they are brutalized for many years and then finally killed and shipped to the nearest local market? YOU KNOW WHAT?WHY DON'T WE ALL BECOME ALL BLOODY VEGETARIANS?"No, because nothing can replace the taste and texture of meat. Once you try bacon, you never go back." See what's going on here?
my god how can you be so ignorant
it's like you're clueless about what we're talking about. it's the dwindling shark populations due to massive overfishing and poaching. throw in unethical fishing practices and a strong black market and you've got yourself a problem.
when it comes to eating pigs, chickens, cows there is a problem with animal brutality. that's why i always opt to buy free-run chicken eggs or organic meat when i can. no one is saying that eating meat is free of problems because quite frankly there is a problem. it's not to the same level of shark fin soup and the problems it creates, however.
strawman up the ass, why don't you start using logic instead of blabbering.
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On October 27 2011 13:16 pandaBee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:13 Blasterion wrote:
Banning is always a bad idea, the smart thing would be to tax what you don't like so you can make money out of it but then again china controls just about all the demand for shark fin so it would have to be china that implements such a tax
But it reduces foreign demands, and alot of Chinese live in the West will have to pay more for their sharkfins and you guys make out in that, Us well, when the shark count gets low enough things will start happening since we make out on fining the hell out of people poaching or sell them poaching licenses for a hell lot of money
Money for everyone, once again what is there not to love?
Soft bans are just as good as hard bans and sometimes even better
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On October 27 2011 13:16 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:04 Elite__ wrote:On October 27 2011 13:00 LanTAs wrote:On October 27 2011 12:53 Elite__ wrote:
I can't even fathom how one of the arguments to keep shark fin soup legal is that its a cultural tradition. From the video's I saw, the sharks are being brutalized and are then just thrown back into the ocean to rot at the bottom where they cant move because they don't have their fins, and since they are in the water its not like they are suffocating, they just lay their until they have this terrible, long death.
. Cows, Pigs, Chickens, and other forms of major livestock owned by major companies are pretty much tortured throughout their whole lives. How can it still be legal when they are brutalized for many years and then finally killed and shipped to the nearest local market? YOU KNOW WHAT?WHY DON'T WE ALL BECOME ALL BLOODY VEGETARIANS?"No, because nothing can replace the taste and texture of meat. Once you try bacon, you never go back." See what's going on here? Cows, pigs and chickens are not endangered and rapidly vanishing as a race. There's a difference. Brutalizing them in the process of turning them into something edible is just one of the problems. And i'm pretty sure animals like chickens don't have their wings chopped off to be set out into the wild again. They are killed completely, even if it is in a terrible way. so one day, when the human population becomes 9E10 and just because of our mass consumption every other animal in the world becomes endangered/extinct, you really think that everyone is willing to become vegetarian?
Right, let's theorize about the future we know nothing about and compare it to an important, real situation at hand. Stop trying to compare this to other things that aren't on its scale. As of right now, animals such as chickens cows and pigs are not endangered and can be harvested without causing a huge impact on a majority of things whereas sharks are not in the same category.
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On October 27 2011 13:19 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:16 pandaBee wrote:On October 27 2011 13:13 Blasterion wrote:
Banning is always a bad idea, the smart thing would be to tax what you don't like so you can make money out of it but then again china controls just about all the demand for shark fin so it would have to be china that implements such a tax But it reduces foreign demands, and alot of Chinese live in the West will have to pay more for their sharkfins and you guys make out in that, Us well, when the shark count gets low enough things will start happening since we make out on fining the hell out of people poaching or sell them poaching licenses for a hell lot of money Money for everyone, once again what is there not to love? Soft bans are just as good as hard bans and sometimes even better
i'm not saying that it shouldn't be done, i'm saying that the difference will be marginal at best. and btw i am not chinese
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On October 27 2011 13:22 pandaBee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:19 Blasterion wrote:On October 27 2011 13:16 pandaBee wrote:On October 27 2011 13:13 Blasterion wrote:
Banning is always a bad idea, the smart thing would be to tax what you don't like so you can make money out of it but then again china controls just about all the demand for shark fin so it would have to be china that implements such a tax But it reduces foreign demands, and alot of Chinese live in the West will have to pay more for their sharkfins and you guys make out in that, Us well, when the shark count gets low enough things will start happening since we make out on fining the hell out of people poaching or sell them poaching licenses for a hell lot of money Money for everyone, once again what is there not to love? Soft bans are just as good as hard bans and sometimes even better i'm not saying that it shouldn't be done, i'm saying that the difference will be marginal at best. and btw i am not chinese
of course not but just to expand my previous point a slight more
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On October 27 2011 13:18 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:12 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:11 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 12:58 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 12:34 shawster wrote:
good, ban that shit.
the way that shark fins are harvested disgust me. i don't see a problem with them infringing upon the rights of the minority. culture isn't an excuse if it causes that much damage to ecosystems and shark populations. i would ban consumption of any meat or product that is harvested unjustly and harmfully.
it's fucking stupid that people are bringing race into discussion. this has nothing to do with race, retards. this ban is about stopping damage to shark populations and stopping unethical finning of sharks. i understand that it hurts some chinese culture but unfortunately i would say culture is less important than the issue at hand.
if eating a delicacy is more important to you than stopping poaching and dwindling shark populations then you're kind of selfish. cut off indulgence and do some good will ya?
the sad part about this discussion is that if i say i'm 100% chinese then i'll be taken more seriously. what makes you think banning shark fin eating in toronto will stop shark pouching? the way i see it, china, hong kong, singapore will NEVER ban shark fin soup. if the rest of the world bans it, then that just means there will be much more supply for shark fin soup for chinese people living in these chinese countries; the price of the soup wont go down as it will be balanced by the decreasing population of sharks and just by the vast amount of overseas people who will travel to these legal areas JUST to be able to eat shark fin soup. imo, countries banning shark fin soup is just decreasing their GDP and making chinese countries richer Just because another country is being environmentally irresponsible does not mean we have the right to be irresponsible too simply because "they're doing it so it doesn't matter if we do it too". Every jurisdiction where the sale of shark fins or the prevention of shark finning occurs is a small victory in the grand scheme of things. except u havent read my post and understand that the ban isnt gonna decrease poaching It will! If there is even one person who as a result of this ban stops eating shark fin soup then IT WILL DECREASE DEMAND.
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that
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On October 27 2011 13:24 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:18 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 13:12 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:11 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 12:58 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 12:34 shawster wrote:
good, ban that shit.
the way that shark fins are harvested disgust me. i don't see a problem with them infringing upon the rights of the minority. culture isn't an excuse if it causes that much damage to ecosystems and shark populations. i would ban consumption of any meat or product that is harvested unjustly and harmfully.
it's fucking stupid that people are bringing race into discussion. this has nothing to do with race, retards. this ban is about stopping damage to shark populations and stopping unethical finning of sharks. i understand that it hurts some chinese culture but unfortunately i would say culture is less important than the issue at hand.
if eating a delicacy is more important to you than stopping poaching and dwindling shark populations then you're kind of selfish. cut off indulgence and do some good will ya?
the sad part about this discussion is that if i say i'm 100% chinese then i'll be taken more seriously. what makes you think banning shark fin eating in toronto will stop shark pouching? the way i see it, china, hong kong, singapore will NEVER ban shark fin soup. if the rest of the world bans it, then that just means there will be much more supply for shark fin soup for chinese people living in these chinese countries; the price of the soup wont go down as it will be balanced by the decreasing population of sharks and just by the vast amount of overseas people who will travel to these legal areas JUST to be able to eat shark fin soup. imo, countries banning shark fin soup is just decreasing their GDP and making chinese countries richer Just because another country is being environmentally irresponsible does not mean we have the right to be irresponsible too simply because "they're doing it so it doesn't matter if we do it too". Every jurisdiction where the sale of shark fins or the prevention of shark finning occurs is a small victory in the grand scheme of things. except u havent read my post and understand that the ban isnt gonna decrease poaching It will! If there is even one person who as a result of this ban stops eating shark fin soup then IT WILL DECREASE DEMAND. the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for. but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again. the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that
Wow, way to turn this into racism once again. Learn to have a civil argument rather than shitting all over people who don't agree with you especially through racist means.
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On October 27 2011 13:24 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:18 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 13:12 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:11 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 12:58 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 12:34 shawster wrote:
good, ban that shit.
the way that shark fins are harvested disgust me. i don't see a problem with them infringing upon the rights of the minority. culture isn't an excuse if it causes that much damage to ecosystems and shark populations. i would ban consumption of any meat or product that is harvested unjustly and harmfully.
it's fucking stupid that people are bringing race into discussion. this has nothing to do with race, retards. this ban is about stopping damage to shark populations and stopping unethical finning of sharks. i understand that it hurts some chinese culture but unfortunately i would say culture is less important than the issue at hand.
if eating a delicacy is more important to you than stopping poaching and dwindling shark populations then you're kind of selfish. cut off indulgence and do some good will ya?
the sad part about this discussion is that if i say i'm 100% chinese then i'll be taken more seriously. what makes you think banning shark fin eating in toronto will stop shark pouching? the way i see it, china, hong kong, singapore will NEVER ban shark fin soup. if the rest of the world bans it, then that just means there will be much more supply for shark fin soup for chinese people living in these chinese countries; the price of the soup wont go down as it will be balanced by the decreasing population of sharks and just by the vast amount of overseas people who will travel to these legal areas JUST to be able to eat shark fin soup. imo, countries banning shark fin soup is just decreasing their GDP and making chinese countries richer Just because another country is being environmentally irresponsible does not mean we have the right to be irresponsible too simply because "they're doing it so it doesn't matter if we do it too". Every jurisdiction where the sale of shark fins or the prevention of shark finning occurs is a small victory in the grand scheme of things. except u havent read my post and understand that the ban isnt gonna decrease poaching It will! If there is even one person who as a result of this ban stops eating shark fin soup then IT WILL DECREASE DEMAND. the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for. but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again. the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that
come on bro.
this is why these kinds of threads don't work out
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On October 27 2011 13:24 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:18 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 13:12 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:11 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 12:58 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 12:34 shawster wrote:
good, ban that shit.
the way that shark fins are harvested disgust me. i don't see a problem with them infringing upon the rights of the minority. culture isn't an excuse if it causes that much damage to ecosystems and shark populations. i would ban consumption of any meat or product that is harvested unjustly and harmfully.
it's fucking stupid that people are bringing race into discussion. this has nothing to do with race, retards. this ban is about stopping damage to shark populations and stopping unethical finning of sharks. i understand that it hurts some chinese culture but unfortunately i would say culture is less important than the issue at hand.
if eating a delicacy is more important to you than stopping poaching and dwindling shark populations then you're kind of selfish. cut off indulgence and do some good will ya?
the sad part about this discussion is that if i say i'm 100% chinese then i'll be taken more seriously. what makes you think banning shark fin eating in toronto will stop shark pouching? the way i see it, china, hong kong, singapore will NEVER ban shark fin soup. if the rest of the world bans it, then that just means there will be much more supply for shark fin soup for chinese people living in these chinese countries; the price of the soup wont go down as it will be balanced by the decreasing population of sharks and just by the vast amount of overseas people who will travel to these legal areas JUST to be able to eat shark fin soup. imo, countries banning shark fin soup is just decreasing their GDP and making chinese countries richer Just because another country is being environmentally irresponsible does not mean we have the right to be irresponsible too simply because "they're doing it so it doesn't matter if we do it too". Every jurisdiction where the sale of shark fins or the prevention of shark finning occurs is a small victory in the grand scheme of things. except u havent read my post and understand that the ban isnt gonna decrease poaching It will! If there is even one person who as a result of this ban stops eating shark fin soup then IT WILL DECREASE DEMAND. the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for. but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again. the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that
I think a combination of issued legal fishing license and a type of special fish tax will work well,
Say Fish Company A kills 5000 sharks a year, they would need say 50 "100 kill licenses" and pay a x% of poundage tax.
Incase of illegal poaching or exceeding license kill allowance, Your government can dine on Fine money
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On October 27 2011 13:28 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:24 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:18 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 13:12 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:11 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 12:58 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 12:34 shawster wrote:
good, ban that shit.
the way that shark fins are harvested disgust me. i don't see a problem with them infringing upon the rights of the minority. culture isn't an excuse if it causes that much damage to ecosystems and shark populations. i would ban consumption of any meat or product that is harvested unjustly and harmfully.
it's fucking stupid that people are bringing race into discussion. this has nothing to do with race, retards. this ban is about stopping damage to shark populations and stopping unethical finning of sharks. i understand that it hurts some chinese culture but unfortunately i would say culture is less important than the issue at hand.
if eating a delicacy is more important to you than stopping poaching and dwindling shark populations then you're kind of selfish. cut off indulgence and do some good will ya?
the sad part about this discussion is that if i say i'm 100% chinese then i'll be taken more seriously. what makes you think banning shark fin eating in toronto will stop shark pouching? the way i see it, china, hong kong, singapore will NEVER ban shark fin soup. if the rest of the world bans it, then that just means there will be much more supply for shark fin soup for chinese people living in these chinese countries; the price of the soup wont go down as it will be balanced by the decreasing population of sharks and just by the vast amount of overseas people who will travel to these legal areas JUST to be able to eat shark fin soup. imo, countries banning shark fin soup is just decreasing their GDP and making chinese countries richer Just because another country is being environmentally irresponsible does not mean we have the right to be irresponsible too simply because "they're doing it so it doesn't matter if we do it too". Every jurisdiction where the sale of shark fins or the prevention of shark finning occurs is a small victory in the grand scheme of things. except u havent read my post and understand that the ban isnt gonna decrease poaching It will! If there is even one person who as a result of this ban stops eating shark fin soup then IT WILL DECREASE DEMAND. the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for. but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again. the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that I think a combination of issued legal fishing license and a type of special fish tax will work well, Say Fish Company A kills 5000 sharks a year, they would need say 50 "100 kill licenses" and pay a x% of poundage tax. Incase of illegal poaching or exceeding license kill allowance, Your government can dine on Fine money
is foreign demand for shark fin great enough such that taxing the good would change the price of the good in the global market (china)?
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On October 27 2011 13:24 saltywet wrote:you'd have to be a white person to not understand that
Stop with the racism what the hell...
Just because other countries are environmentally unethical does not give every other country the right to shit all over the environment as well. The ban may be the starting point we need to have bans implemented elsewhere around the world. The more places that ban the sale, consumption or poaching of sharks the more likely it is that sharks will survive.
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Why don't they just tell them the truth: every bowl of shark fin soup they have has a shit ton of mercury in it. Enjoy eating your mercury.
But on a more practical manner they will never get rid of shark finning. It just won't ever happen. There will always be a demand, just like there is still ivory. That said I am totally for it. Culture is not a reasonable defense. This is a globalized world and some cultural traditions can not be sustained.
I'm from an amazonian tribe of cannibals and in my culture every friday we go head-hunting and eat the fattest person we can find. How dare they outlaw that, it's my culture! No I don't care if it's the same, or analogous, it doesn't matter. It's the principle. Culture is never, ever, ever a reason to not ban somethings. That goes for everything from burkas to shark fin soup to seal clubbing, etc.
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On October 27 2011 13:30 pandaBee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:28 Blasterion wrote:On October 27 2011 13:24 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:18 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 13:12 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 13:11 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 12:58 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 12:34 shawster wrote:
good, ban that shit.
the way that shark fins are harvested disgust me. i don't see a problem with them infringing upon the rights of the minority. culture isn't an excuse if it causes that much damage to ecosystems and shark populations. i would ban consumption of any meat or product that is harvested unjustly and harmfully.
it's fucking stupid that people are bringing race into discussion. this has nothing to do with race, retards. this ban is about stopping damage to shark populations and stopping unethical finning of sharks. i understand that it hurts some chinese culture but unfortunately i would say culture is less important than the issue at hand.
if eating a delicacy is more important to you than stopping poaching and dwindling shark populations then you're kind of selfish. cut off indulgence and do some good will ya?
the sad part about this discussion is that if i say i'm 100% chinese then i'll be taken more seriously. what makes you think banning shark fin eating in toronto will stop shark pouching? the way i see it, china, hong kong, singapore will NEVER ban shark fin soup. if the rest of the world bans it, then that just means there will be much more supply for shark fin soup for chinese people living in these chinese countries; the price of the soup wont go down as it will be balanced by the decreasing population of sharks and just by the vast amount of overseas people who will travel to these legal areas JUST to be able to eat shark fin soup. imo, countries banning shark fin soup is just decreasing their GDP and making chinese countries richer Just because another country is being environmentally irresponsible does not mean we have the right to be irresponsible too simply because "they're doing it so it doesn't matter if we do it too". Every jurisdiction where the sale of shark fins or the prevention of shark finning occurs is a small victory in the grand scheme of things. except u havent read my post and understand that the ban isnt gonna decrease poaching It will! If there is even one person who as a result of this ban stops eating shark fin soup then IT WILL DECREASE DEMAND. the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for. but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again. the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that I think a combination of issued legal fishing license and a type of special fish tax will work well, Say Fish Company A kills 5000 sharks a year, they would need say 50 "100 kill licenses" and pay a x% of poundage tax. Incase of illegal poaching or exceeding license kill allowance, Your government can dine on Fine money is foreign demand for shark fin great enough such that taxing the good would change the price of the good in the global market (china)?
Considering over half of the native Chinese are dead broke bankrupt and probably can't afford a bowl in their entire life time, i'd say the foreign demand would be pretty influential.
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On October 27 2011 13:16 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 12:54 Reborn8u wrote:On October 27 2011 09:37 Kiarip wrote:On October 27 2011 09:33 Reborn8u wrote:I think humanity has driven enough species out of existence. Even if you lack compassion, it's obvious that we threaten our own existence if we don't change our ways. Totally support the ban, these animals should be treated with more respect. Just last year another species of rhino became extinct. We have a responsibility as the dominant species on this planet to stop acting like jackasses by annihilating lifeforms. http://www.livescience.com/16744-vietnam-javan-rhino-extinct.html Here is a list of endangered shark species, there are 201 of them. These animals have existed for millions of years and in just a few generations we are managing to erase them from existence. http://www.shark.ch/Database/EndangeredSharks/index.html?lim=8&slang=2 on average there's a species going extinct every 20 minutes. If there's a suppl for shark fins there will be a demand regardles of whether it's legal or not, you're just forcing honest people trying to make their living into becoming criminals... It's not our responsibility to save individual species, or even to avoid destroying them altogether, unless their lack of existence poses some kind of negative consequences for whoever's is gonna be left alive. There is a species going extinct every 20 minutes Because of humans No, we are not forcing them to become criminals, we are forcing them to not cause extinction. There are plenty of other aquatic animals they can hunt for profit, that don't face extinction. A lot of seafood is being farmed these days. Maybe they should try it. (Most of us) We have these things called brains, when we use them and really think about our role on this planet, and what an oasis of life this Earth is. Among the vast emptiness of space that surrounds this planet completely devoid of anything that can sustain life. We realize that It IS our responsibility to save species instead of destroying them "We don't need sharks in the seas for any reason. They eat fish, and we're already over-fishing the Oceans, so overpopulation of fish won't be a problem, most people don't eat actual sharks, they don't compose a large portion of people's diet, so if someone want's to have shark fins there's literally no negative consequence to it other than people in the future not being able to get shark fins..." This is just such an ignorant statement I'm not even sure how to respond. Are you trolling? Apex predators like sharks are CRUCIAL to a healthy eco system. They weed out the weak and sick, and make sure that the stronger and healthier prey survive into adulthood. Everything on this planet has a role and co-exists (except humans) their existence has a purpose grander than such small minded thinking can comprehend. The fact that you honestly believe that everything on this planet is just here so we can harvest it until it's gone, leaves me almost speechless. This kind of thinking is EXACTLY what will lead humans to their own self destruction. I feel ashamed that we are even the same species. You need to do some reading kid, because arrogance and ignorance go hand and hand. You clearly are a pile of both, there are mountains of research about the role apex predators fill and their importance. Maybe you should try to learn what you are talking about before you spew the first idiotic thing that comes to mind. A decade or so ago, scientists re-introduced wolves to Yellow Stone National Park. Humans had eradicated them from the mid-western U.S. It was controversial at the time, a lot of foolish people made terrible arguments about the lack of necessity. Now that they are once again thriving, it is clear to everyone how important they are. All of the herds of grazing animals have become overall healthier, and are maintaining sustainable populations. They have brought balance. The reproduction of the wolves' prey is being kept in check, the grazing herds can't just stand around all day doing nothing and making babies. They are being chased by wolf packs and forced to stay on the move. The weak don't survive to create weak offspring. Also, many scavenger animals are thriving again because of the carcasses being left. Ecosystems are incredibly complex, it's not about "what can they do for us" They do things for us that are so indirect we don't even realize it. Do you realize that the reason this earth has an atmosphere and breathable oxygen is because microscopic organisms in the ocean were performing photosynthesis for billions of years, of which oxygen is a byproduct. All the oxygen then floated to the surface and accumulated creating the biosphere your breathing right now? If you didn't realize this would you also say about them "it's just plankton who cares if it goes extinct?" Would you just pull a part out of your car engine, when you didn't understand it's role? Then jump on the highway and try to drive to Miami. No, because the car might run for a little while, but that part might have been part of your cooling system. So now 20 miles down the road your engine is catching fire. Bottom line, our generation was born unto a dying world. Yea, that's right, if things keep going the way they are then it isn't a question of "if we will all die" it's a question of "how long till it happens". Humanities destruction of earths environment has started a timer, that ends with our own extinction. Problem is we don't understand how to read the clock, we don't know how much time we have to try and fix what we've done. Yeah, sharks might be just a tiny piece of the overall issue. But it's the thinking (or complete lack of) behind this behavior that I find so disturbing. Everyone should thoroughly read this post until they understand the intricacies of this issue. You eating shark fin soup is not a life or death issue, you can live without it. The consequences of finning sharks are infinitely higher than the benefits of eating shark fin soup.
Right now the sign of our destruction aren't apparent at all, I'm sure if you had conclusive proof finning would lead to our extinction things would be very different. The extent of the impact is purely conjecture, it's believeable but is it really true? A species goes extinct every 20 mins, but ostensibly, we are in no worse a position, the sabretooth tigers and all those prehistoric apex preadators died out, we are still here. The consequences are thoery, it's just like global warming the problems are not so dire that it warrants immediate action. So I disagree, consequences are not "infinitely higher". Humans do what we want to, we go through amazing lengths to satisfy out whims and fancies. Why eat meat? We'll have more food to solve world hunger if we ate all the veggies instead of feedimg our livestock, and lessen their suffering in those slaughter house.
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Yes cultural traditions are valuable - but it is the means of preparing those cultural delicacy that's the problem. If those who eat shark meat are to farm the sharks as not to lower global shark population down to the point of endangering the continuation of the species, that is definitely wrong.
Those who prepare those cultural delicacies should take on more responsibility accepting the fact that they represent their culture in a significant way.
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saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that
 fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces
get your racist ass off of team liquid
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On October 27 2011 13:12 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:11 Tektos wrote:On October 27 2011 12:58 saltywet wrote:On October 27 2011 12:34 shawster wrote:
good, ban that shit.
the way that shark fins are harvested disgust me. i don't see a problem with them infringing upon the rights of the minority. culture isn't an excuse if it causes that much damage to ecosystems and shark populations. i would ban consumption of any meat or product that is harvested unjustly and harmfully.
it's fucking stupid that people are bringing race into discussion. this has nothing to do with race, retards. this ban is about stopping damage to shark populations and stopping unethical finning of sharks. i understand that it hurts some chinese culture but unfortunately i would say culture is less important than the issue at hand.
if eating a delicacy is more important to you than stopping poaching and dwindling shark populations then you're kind of selfish. cut off indulgence and do some good will ya?
the sad part about this discussion is that if i say i'm 100% chinese then i'll be taken more seriously. what makes you think banning shark fin eating in toronto will stop shark pouching? the way i see it, china, hong kong, singapore will NEVER ban shark fin soup. if the rest of the world bans it, then that just means there will be much more supply for shark fin soup for chinese people living in these chinese countries; the price of the soup wont go down as it will be balanced by the decreasing population of sharks and just by the vast amount of overseas people who will travel to these legal areas JUST to be able to eat shark fin soup. imo, countries banning shark fin soup is just decreasing their GDP and making chinese countries richer Just because another country is being environmentally irresponsible does not mean we have the right to be irresponsible too simply because "they're doing it so it doesn't matter if we do it too". Every jurisdiction where the sale of shark fins or the prevention of shark finning occurs is a small victory in the grand scheme of things. except u havent read my post and understand that the ban isnt gonna decrease poaching
The poaching of whales seems fairly comparable to the commercial whale fishery. Both cases involve fisheries, and following the ban on commercial whaling, blue whale populations have increased from less then 2000 in 1964 to around 10000 in present day(still a far cry from the pre-whaling population of 275000). Poaching of whales(especially less closely monitored smaller whale species) still exists (helped by a few countries that refuse to comply with international standards on the matter) but it is on a much smaller scale then pre-ban. Even the rogue states with regard to whaling legislature avoid the highly endangered Blues in favor of the other species that are not as threatened.
As far as the cultural implications, they are also fairly analogous. The whaling tradition and the consumption of whale was deeply tied to Scandinavian, Japanese, and Native American traditions, and while all of those people have not completely foregone whaling, the scale and extent of the operations were greatly reduced.
Obviously some poaching happens as police occasionally seize illegal scrimshaw and whale meat, but the international ban greatly reduced the scale of the whaling industry, and forced the violating nations to at least be somewhat careful in how they go about whaling.
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On October 27 2011 13:39 IMSmooth wrote:Show nested quote +saltywet wrote:
the price of shark fins is so high that the price can drop several times and it would still be worth poaching sharks for.
but by the time the price of shark fins have dropped 20$ the demand will skyrocket again.
the idea of saving sharks by banning the dining of shark fin soup is very unrealistic and you'd have to be a white person to not understand that fuck man, insert any other race or culture in there for white and people would absolutely trash you to pieces get your racist ass off of team liquid
Yeah the double standard is quite interesting. There have been numerous racial slurs throughout the last 5 pages of this thread directed at white people yet not even a warning as yet.
Apparently it is only racism if the victim isn't caucasian.
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EPT
