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On October 27 2011 11:21 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:19 koreasilver wrote:On October 27 2011 11:13 Blasterion wrote:On October 27 2011 11:02 theBALLS wrote:
Why you white people meddle in our lives?
:D J/k. It's been an age old tradition for us to have sharks fin soup served at weddings and stuff.
If ya gonna ban our sharks fin, ya gotta ban foie gras and shit like that too yo. But seriously why does the white men must butt into our business all the time, Teamliquid especially LOVE some china bashing it has become a highly notable trend, Whatever happens it's the Chinese fault Maybe if you guys weren't the main reason why shark finning occurs in a completely unsustainable way, this all wouldn't be a problem. It is not as if Toronto went through with this ban just because shark fin was a Chinese dish. That the consumer is Chinese really is irrelevant. But you guy ALWAYS have a bone or two to pick about us, and plainly we're kind of sick of it
True, no culture is perfect and there isn't a sane Chinese person who will tell you that China is perfect.
It's how armchair generals from the so called "1st world" continuously nitpick everything about others while turning a blind eye to their own shortcomings that really gets me.
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On October 27 2011 11:21 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 10:57 SteemdRIce wrote:
Chinese person here, fake shark fin tastes better than real shark fin anyway. Don't really get why anyone would eat the real stuff when the 'artificial' version of it is available en masse and doesn't involve needlessly killing living animals. It's funny how me and a few real Chinese people make these posts, yet there still are those who like to think of everyone in China as *insert bland prejudice*.
Maybe I shouldn't have written such a scathing review of the current state of things in China, but how is that different from evaluating the ban as ignorant prejudice against Chinese culture and that westerners are *insert bland prejudice*. Frankly, to evaluate the ban as ignorant prejudice is offensive, because it means the person saying it is either totally oblivious to the real reason, undervalues it, or is playing the victim to get what they want.
And it really isn't about everyone in China, nor should that even be relevant. There are likely millions of people against it in China. It's an environmental issue, the problem is that one aspect of Chinese culture is stubbornly standing in the way of environmental reform and progress, while validating itself as a unique and valid cultural identity, and condemning anyone who says otherwise as racist.
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On October 27 2011 11:30 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:21 RavenLoud wrote:On October 27 2011 10:57 SteemdRIce wrote:
Chinese person here, fake shark fin tastes better than real shark fin anyway. Don't really get why anyone would eat the real stuff when the 'artificial' version of it is available en masse and doesn't involve needlessly killing living animals. It's funny how me and a few real Chinese people make these posts, yet there still are those who like to think of everyone in China as *insert bland prejudice*. Maybe I shouldn't have written such a scathing review of the current state of things in China, but how is that different from evaluating the ban as ignorant prejudice against Chinese culture and that westerners are *insert bland prejudice*. Frankly, to evaluate the ban as ignorant prejudice is offensive, because it means the person saying it is either totally oblivious to the real reason, or undervalues it. And it really isn't about everyone in China, nor should that even be relevant. There are likely millions of people against it in China. It's an environmental issue, the problem is that one aspect of Chinese culture is stubbornly standing in the way of environmental reform and progress, while validating itself as a unique and valid cultural identity, and condemning anyone who says otherwise as racist.
isn't it funny? Three times a month there is this one News about China and all the Americans and Europeans swarm like bees towards it to get a bash at it.
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On October 27 2011 00:52 MiraMax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 00:06 Williammm wrote:
Why shouldn't economic reasoning be the first and foremost consideration giving the way society functions as a factory of production as its main motif. Caring for the food source above the economic needs of the people who need to maximise their efficiency in order to survive in the market driven world, have you taken that into consideration? I agree my position at this point is speciesism, but why is that wrong? Why should humans who are at the top of the food chain, consider the suffering of other animals who are being culled for food? Given how the food chain works and the stronger consumes the weaker without consideration of the weaker, why is then that kind of behaviour becomes unacceptable just because we're humans?
That's easy. I don't see societies' main motif as being to enable an efficient economic production and I don't think you do either. That would have it completely backwards. Efficient economic production is a means to increase well-being for the memebers of society. It's also not so much about being wrong or not, but about being rational. If you care about that, then you should not make excuses based on speciesism because this would be a purely subjective argument, as long as you don't provide the important distinguishing factors. However, if you are fine with morals being based on subjective arguments and emotions and not on rationality, then why would we continue to argue. What rational argument could I provide? Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 22:55 Williammm wrote:
We have but how do you confirm what you're trying to communicate is being received? Especially when it comes to sharks in this case. Also your example of a 6 month old baby is invalid, because humans are capable of within species empathy that allows for connections and bonds between adult and child. You cannot communicate with a shark, nor will you ever be able to in this lifetime. Thus all feelings you experience for the sharks whom you are most likely to be removed from are completely subjective.
That's exactly why I would not want to base my morals on whether or not I can feel with the shark. You propose that this is the way to go. I simply called this out as an argument from emotion - and rightfully so. Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 22:55 Williammm wrote:
What responsibility do you have or anyone in this forum have on the slaughtering of sharks for their fins? Why does it concern you, how they're killing the sharks? Without established connections, what grounds do you have to say that what the fishermen are doing is wrong? Why is it wrong to kill for food? On what basis do you feel obligated for moral responsibility if you're so far removed from the actual context?
It is not enough to simply say we're human beings and we should be fair to all living things the way we are fair to each other. That is subjective, and not every person holds those views.
The only thing we can say that is wrong in response to the OP is the unsustainable practice of shark fin harvesting as well as the potential environmental damage it does that threatens the balance of the ecosystems which in turn threatens our own survival. There is a foreseeable impact that is widespread across humanity. Killing methods do not fall into that category. Another big argument from emotion. Whether I sense concern about something or am emotionally distressed about something is neither here nor there. I have never said that "killing for food is wrong whatever the circumstance" nor do I hold this position. But it is easy to see that the practice involved causes unnecessary suffering to an animal for the benefit of producing a luxury item (which happens to be eatable in this case). I can comdemn that practice based on my assessment of benefits and downsides, which could certainly be factually wrong. But you would need to address any failures with a specific argument. I care for other humans mainly because of their profound ability to sufffer. If humans would not be sentient then I would also not care for them (a.k.a. speciesism is bogus). I have learned however that other animals are also able to suffer. The extent to which they suffer might be difficult to analyze for me, but then again I would also not know whether you can suffer in the same way I can. I am therefore generally obliged to consider all animal suffering, if I care that my morals are rationally grounded. This is actually the easy part, I think. The hard part comes as soon as conflicts arise... but then again I will not simply drop rationality just because it gets difficult.
You're using phrases like "I want", "I would not want", "i feel". Aren't you the one that's being over emotional about my opinions? You're deflecting the actual argument and attacking my rational position (for which I never claimed I was upholding in the first place, you were making an assumption.. but yes I was implying it), when you yourself did not display any modes of rational thought. You sense, feel, think, want throughout your entire argument, isn't it hypocritical for you to use that as a counter argument?
Unnecessary suffering is also your own subjective opinion. Your morals should not be considered in a rational argument, because what your morals are, are different to what everyone else's morals are. It is subjected to your own personal cognitive distortions. My argument is look at the scenario and weigh up the factual evidence that is confirmable.
'A fishman harvests shark fins for a living
He/she only wants the fin, because the boat cannot carry many sharks (in the context of the video)
Only way to get the fin is to cut it off, as a result the shark will die.'
if you can think of a way to get the fin without killing the shark, I'd like to hear it.
Also you cannot use the argument that we should stop harvesting shark fins, because that is what it is. Suffering was never the reason why distrbution and consumption of shark fins was banned, it was the unsustainable practice and environmentally damaging effects. That was why I continually stressed that the suffering of the animal was a non-issue and shouldn't be discussed in regards to this context (get shark fin, without cutting the fin? practical yeah?). You cannot deny the reality.
Society is based on an economic framework, and I'd like to hear your perspective on why that is backward. If you look at the entire experience of people across the world is based off money. We can not adapt to this world without money nor avoid it in the course of a life time. This scenario as well, deals with the issues of economic effects where in this case is the food industry. To use any other forms of judgements would be entirely missing the point.
Also speciseism is not an excuse, it's a fundamental aspect of human existence. Much like racism, we discriminate against the things that are not us. This is implicit within our personality, whereas explicitly that may not be the case because education has taught us that is wrong. However, it still doesn't deny the fact that is who we are.
To sum up, please stop using the emotional argument to attack my points, and also stop being hypocritcal about that either. If you want to argue on rational grounds, weigh up the evidence that exists and not off your own moral judgement.
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On October 27 2011 11:35 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:30 sevencck wrote:On October 27 2011 11:21 RavenLoud wrote:On October 27 2011 10:57 SteemdRIce wrote:
Chinese person here, fake shark fin tastes better than real shark fin anyway. Don't really get why anyone would eat the real stuff when the 'artificial' version of it is available en masse and doesn't involve needlessly killing living animals. It's funny how me and a few real Chinese people make these posts, yet there still are those who like to think of everyone in China as *insert bland prejudice*. Maybe I shouldn't have written such a scathing review of the current state of things in China, but how is that different from evaluating the ban as ignorant prejudice against Chinese culture and that westerners are *insert bland prejudice*. Frankly, to evaluate the ban as ignorant prejudice is offensive, because it means the person saying it is either totally oblivious to the real reason, or undervalues it. And it really isn't about everyone in China, nor should that even be relevant. There are likely millions of people against it in China. It's an environmental issue, the problem is that one aspect of Chinese culture is stubbornly standing in the way of environmental reform and progress, while validating itself as a unique and valid cultural identity, and condemning anyone who says otherwise as racist. isn't it funny? Three times a month there is this one News about China and all the Americans and Europeans swarm like bees towards it to get a bash at it.
And I suppose they aren't bash worthy topics? There are a number of threads on TL where people are critical of a number of social/political/cultural elements going on all over the world, that's one of the reasons I enjoy reading this section of these forums. It just seems hypocritical to take exception when some element of Chinese culture is being critiqued (possibly for good reason) when that same critical behavior is par for the course elsewhere on the forums.
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On October 27 2011 11:35 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:30 sevencck wrote:On October 27 2011 11:21 RavenLoud wrote:On October 27 2011 10:57 SteemdRIce wrote:
Chinese person here, fake shark fin tastes better than real shark fin anyway. Don't really get why anyone would eat the real stuff when the 'artificial' version of it is available en masse and doesn't involve needlessly killing living animals. It's funny how me and a few real Chinese people make these posts, yet there still are those who like to think of everyone in China as *insert bland prejudice*. Maybe I shouldn't have written such a scathing review of the current state of things in China, but how is that different from evaluating the ban as ignorant prejudice against Chinese culture and that westerners are *insert bland prejudice*. Frankly, to evaluate the ban as ignorant prejudice is offensive, because it means the person saying it is either totally oblivious to the real reason, or undervalues it. And it really isn't about everyone in China, nor should that even be relevant. There are likely millions of people against it in China. It's an environmental issue, the problem is that one aspect of Chinese culture is stubbornly standing in the way of environmental reform and progress, while validating itself as a unique and valid cultural identity, and condemning anyone who says otherwise as racist. isn't it funny? Three times a month there is this one News about China and all the Americans and Europeans swarm like bees towards it to get a bash at it.
Or maybe its not because it is specifically Chinese but because they are controversial news stories that bring out people's opinions. Stop thinking the world is out to get you and everyone who has a negative opinion about a specific issue which coincidentally involves China is a racist. It makes you look paranoid.
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On October 27 2011 11:40 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:35 Blasterion wrote:On October 27 2011 11:30 sevencck wrote:On October 27 2011 11:21 RavenLoud wrote:On October 27 2011 10:57 SteemdRIce wrote:
Chinese person here, fake shark fin tastes better than real shark fin anyway. Don't really get why anyone would eat the real stuff when the 'artificial' version of it is available en masse and doesn't involve needlessly killing living animals. It's funny how me and a few real Chinese people make these posts, yet there still are those who like to think of everyone in China as *insert bland prejudice*. Maybe I shouldn't have written such a scathing review of the current state of things in China, but how is that different from evaluating the ban as ignorant prejudice against Chinese culture and that westerners are *insert bland prejudice*. Frankly, to evaluate the ban as ignorant prejudice is offensive, because it means the person saying it is either totally oblivious to the real reason, or undervalues it. And it really isn't about everyone in China, nor should that even be relevant. There are likely millions of people against it in China. It's an environmental issue, the problem is that one aspect of Chinese culture is stubbornly standing in the way of environmental reform and progress, while validating itself as a unique and valid cultural identity, and condemning anyone who says otherwise as racist. isn't it funny? Three times a month there is this one News about China and all the Americans and Europeans swarm like bees towards it to get a bash at it. Or maybe its not because it is specifically Chinese but because they are controversial news stories that bring out people's opinions. Stop thinking the world is out to get you and everyone who has a negative opinion about a specific issue which coincidentally involves China is a racist. It makes you look paranoid.
Not paranoid, just noticing a trend, The so called threads that provokes Critical thinking as you suggest usually just says, BASH THEM HERE
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I've had shark fin lots of times in my life. It's ok but I wouldn't put it anywhere near the list of my favorite dishes. Like most expensive food, shark fin is just a status/rarity thing. Hacking off a shark's fin and then dumping it back into the ocean is definitely fucked up, but I have doubts about the claim that sharks are becoming endangered because of it. We're not talking about Great Whites here. It's a shame there's no avenue for "responsible" shark fin hunting. Just like how there's special certifications for cows, salmon, etc., I think a more sensible solution would be to establish an oversight committee or something along those lines to make sure all shark hunting is being done in a sustainable and "humane" way.
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Chill blasterion! There there.
I'm Chinese by race, not by nationality. There are many, many things that we deserved to be mocked about. The worst thing to do now is to take things personally.
There are 2 main reasons why sharks fin is banned there:
1) Unsustainability
2) Ethical reasons.
Goody good good! This is very, very similar to the whaling problem in Japan.
However, at the same time, 99% of this dish is consumed by us Chinese. That's where the factor of tolerance comes in.
There may be certain issues that one may deem unacceptable from another culture, but sometimes, we have to shut up and turn a blind eye. Whether this is one of the instances or not, I'm not arguing.
So let's not be a bunch of chinese schizos aight my man? When I get mocked gook, ching chong, whatever, I laugh it off; it's pretty funny. The world can't be taken too seriously!
TL;DR: I FUCKING LOVE SHARKS FIN. However, I know that it's bad for the environment, so herp derp okay yada yada take it away from me, I know it's for the greater good. BUT, sharks fin may mean A LOT more to other people, especially the traditional Chinese folk (my first language is English). Give and take, take a punch, bite your lip; sometimes governments have to practice more tact.
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Is it really that difficult to maybe accept that China really does have a slew of problems? Perhaps for for similar reasons that America and other countries is berated so often and openly on certain topics? Are we now supposed to say and hear that people criticize American sometimes not because of what occurs but simply because America is inhabited by Americans? This is really silly. You are just setting up scarecrows.
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I used to eat shark fin soup a lot, but I'm liking this ban. Watched that Ramsay vid, and was pretty shocked.
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On October 27 2011 11:54 koreasilver wrote:
Is it really that difficult to maybe accept that China really does have a slew of problems? Perhaps for for similar reasons that America and other countries is berated so often and openly on certain topics? Are we now supposed to say and hear that people criticize American sometimes not because of what occurs but simply because America is inhabited by Americans? This is really silly. You are just setting up scarecrows.
Believe us, we know we have our own problems, but you foreigners are making a too much of a big deal about it are rubbing us all in a very bad way
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On October 27 2011 11:54 koreasilver wrote:
Is it really that difficult to maybe accept that China really does have a slew of problems? Perhaps for for similar reasons that America and other countries is berated so often and openly on certain topics? Are we now supposed to say and hear that people criticize American sometimes not because of what occurs but simply because America is inhabited by Americans? This is really silly. You are just setting up scarecrows.
As the Americans say, blame Canada.
;D
Chill out guys! Let's stick to the topic on hand.
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On October 26 2011 18:41 T.O.P. wrote:
It's an example of the majority infringing on the rights of the minority. The law unfairly targets people of Chinese descent by banning one of their cultural traditions.
Yeah, how could you ever ban slavery?! Or witch hunt?! It's a cultural tradition for gods sake!
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On October 27 2011 11:56 theBALLS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:54 koreasilver wrote:
Is it really that difficult to maybe accept that China really does have a slew of problems? Perhaps for for similar reasons that America and other countries is berated so often and openly on certain topics? Are we now supposed to say and hear that people criticize American sometimes not because of what occurs but simply because America is inhabited by Americans? This is really silly. You are just setting up scarecrows. As the Americans say, blame Canada. ;D Chill out guys! Let's stick to the topic on hand.
Yeah but they should cut us slack too
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On October 27 2011 11:57 Shewklad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:41 T.O.P. wrote:
It's an example of the majority infringing on the rights of the minority. The law unfairly targets people of Chinese descent by banning one of their cultural traditions. Yeah, how could you ever ban slavery?! Or witch hunt?! It's a cultural tradition for gods sake!
Wow, did you just relate sharks fin to SLAVERY and WITCH HUNTING?
You sir drive an EXCELLENT point :D
I accept the views of everyone here, but some are just seriously plain dumb :/
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On October 27 2011 11:54 theBALLS wrote:
Chill blasterion! There there.
I'm Chinese by race, not by nationality. There are many, many things that we deserved to be mocked about. The worst thing to do now is to take things personally.
There are 2 main reasons why sharks fin is banned there:
1) Unsustainability
2) Ethical reasons.
Goody good good! This is very, very similar to the whaling problem in Japan.
However, at the same time, 99% of this dish is consumed by us Chinese. That's where the factor of tolerance comes in.
There may be certain issues that one may deem unacceptable from another culture, but sometimes, we have to shut up and turn a blind eye. Whether this is one of the instances or not, I'm not arguing.
So let's not be a bunch of chinese schizos aight my man? When I get mocked gook, ching chong, whatever, I laugh it off; it's pretty funny. The world can't be taken too seriously!
TL;DR: I FUCKING LOVE SHARKS FIN. However, I know that it's bad for the environment, so herp derp okay yada yada take it away from me, I know it's for the greater good. BUT, sharks fin may mean A LOT more to other people, especially the traditional Chinese folk (my first language is English). Give and take, take a punch, bite your lip; sometimes governments have to practice more tact.
Exactly! The nerve of these foreigners! fine you can ban one of the food I love, but witch hunting us for liking it? They are taking it way too far
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Ppl in Toronto, who cares? Now you just have to drive to markham to get your shark fin soup, thats where most of the best asian food is located anyway.
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On October 27 2011 12:01 statikg wrote:
Ppl in Toronto, who cares? Now you just have to drive to markham to get your shark fin soup, thats where most of the best asian food is located anyway.
Markham food is amazing, though the ban might drive up the price though =/ Better expensive fins than no fins
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On October 27 2011 12:00 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:54 theBALLS wrote:
Chill blasterion! There there.
I'm Chinese by race, not by nationality. There are many, many things that we deserved to be mocked about. The worst thing to do now is to take things personally.
There are 2 main reasons why sharks fin is banned there:
1) Unsustainability
2) Ethical reasons.
Goody good good! This is very, very similar to the whaling problem in Japan.
However, at the same time, 99% of this dish is consumed by us Chinese. That's where the factor of tolerance comes in.
There may be certain issues that one may deem unacceptable from another culture, but sometimes, we have to shut up and turn a blind eye. Whether this is one of the instances or not, I'm not arguing.
So let's not be a bunch of chinese schizos aight my man? When I get mocked gook, ching chong, whatever, I laugh it off; it's pretty funny. The world can't be taken too seriously!
TL;DR: I FUCKING LOVE SHARKS FIN. However, I know that it's bad for the environment, so herp derp okay yada yada take it away from me, I know it's for the greater good. BUT, sharks fin may mean A LOT more to other people, especially the traditional Chinese folk (my first language is English). Give and take, take a punch, bite your lip; sometimes governments have to practice more tact. Exactly! The nerve of these foreigners! fine you can ban one of the food I love, but witch hunting us for liking it? They are taking it way too far
Brother, I don't think they are witch hunting us for liking it man! Sure, the ban may be a little tactless to us, but I think they have ultimately have good reason for the sake of the sharks.
Why so serious?  Don't worry about it. I think TL is a reasonably equivocal society.
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EPT
