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On October 19 2011 10:03 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 09:49 c24papa wrote:On October 19 2011 09:15 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 09:13 SilentchiLL wrote:On October 19 2011 09:10 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 09:03 Magic_Mike wrote:On October 19 2011 09:00 madcow305 wrote:On October 19 2011 08:58 SilentchiLL wrote:On October 19 2011 08:54 madcow305 wrote:
Silentchill, I like how you're unashamedly debating logic with feeling and arguing that doing what's "right" is somehow always better than doing what's intelligent.
You might as well be posting gibberish, you have no standpoint other than you feel that your position is "right."
Blasterion should have ignored you a long time ago. The question is, do I need more? I want to be able to look in the mirror and be proud, I don't want to lay in my bed and have regrets and there's no way that I would want to get reminded of the bleeding 2 year old little girl I left lying on the street to die, everytime I see a child. So you help, parents sue you, fuked up Chinese courts rule against you, you pay 500,000 euro a year for the rest of your life. Then 5 years later, when your kids are following you around the slums while you dig through garbage cans for dinner, your wife asks you how they got in this mess. Your reply? "It was the right thing to do." See how long she and her children can live off those words. As long as it takes. People have lived off of much worse. At least she has a husband with character and integrity. And someone with that sort of integrity will no doubt be able to survive such a horrific loss of money. Someone who always does the right thing will find a way. I feel naught but pity then, because a man's first duty is to protect their family so that doesn't happen. Hmm atleast it was made obvious now why our opinions are so different, I always thought that it's the first duty of a man to do what's right. The term "right" is extremely subjective, tell me your definition of this right of yours, I can clearly define exactly what I should be doing and that is what's in the best interest of my family, but I am eager to learn this right that you speak of Yeah, everything is relative and all that. Being so hostile against our "western morale", emotional nonesense and how "stupid ignorant euro kids and american redneck know nothing about China" does not make you any more right or wrong, so why dont you tone down your condesending BS. While I agree that your logical argument on why they are behaving as they are indeed valid, so are many other logical reasoning for doing things. Theifs stealing to provide for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Scammers scamming people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Robber robbing a grocery shop, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Hitmen making a living kiling people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Leaders of crime syndicates doing horrible things to others without the slightest regard for others, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy. Hell while we are at it Stalin and Hitler killed millions and millions people, for their familiy (The third Reich and Sovjet in this case) use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy By your argument these are all valid logical reasonings, which they may as well be, but even you can see a big difference from doing right from wrong and that logical reason is not what matters in some cases, especially when it comes to human lives.. Everything can be explained in some off sense of necessity for protect or providing in any crime. Doesnt make it any more right or wrong. My opinion is that they are egosentric cowards whom should look in disgust at themselves everytime they look in the mirror. Id rather look in a poor mans mirror with pride and selfworth than in a rich mans mirror knowing i have killed a baby. But as you so nicely put it, thats just me being a moral-faggot That's exactly it though since because of your morals you lost sight of what you truly should be protecting. This isn't just you it's you and your family, your parents' retirement fund, your children's future education. If you are willing to risk all that, I have every right to define it as moral faggotry
Great job not addressing my real point..
But to what you addressed, then of course you have the right to do that. And I have the right to define the reasoning you present as cowardness, naive, shortsighted and egosentric.
What I truly should be protecting?
Do you have the right answer on who and what I should protect?
Are your priorities better than mine because you only want to protect your familiy and i see a bigger scale picture?
Funny how my morals have made me lost sight of what your morals defines as "what I truly should be protecting".
The way I see it I am protecting humanity, my culture, my society and what I believe in by acting like I would like all those around me to act. Something I am pretty sure you cant say the same about.How can I want everyone else to act after my morals and values and in the way I would like otfers to behave if I do not do it myself? I have only one life that I know of and I will spend it according to the morale I wish others after me should have. I would rather be a father that gives my children good values and little money than a father that gives them money and shit values. There are worse things in life than poverty in my opinion.
And id much rather have people believing in the greater good of man than believing in the familiy's wellbeing. What a hellhole this world would be then. ( Or even more of a hellhole if you like)
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It's fucking disgusting the way society is now.
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On October 19 2011 09:14 Magic_Mike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 09:10 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 09:03 Magic_Mike wrote:On October 19 2011 09:00 madcow305 wrote:On October 19 2011 08:58 SilentchiLL wrote:On October 19 2011 08:54 madcow305 wrote:
Silentchill, I like how you're unashamedly debating logic with feeling and arguing that doing what's "right" is somehow always better than doing what's intelligent.
You might as well be posting gibberish, you have no standpoint other than you feel that your position is "right."
Blasterion should have ignored you a long time ago. The question is, do I need more? I want to be able to look in the mirror and be proud, I don't want to lay in my bed and have regrets and there's no way that I would want to get reminded of the bleeding 2 year old little girl I left lying on the street to die, everytime I see a child. So you help, parents sue you, fuked up Chinese courts rule against you, you pay 500,000 euro a year for the rest of your life. Then 5 years later, when your kids are following you around the slums while you dig through garbage cans for dinner, your wife asks you how they got in this mess. Your reply? "It was the right thing to do." See how long she and her children can live off those words. As long as it takes. People have lived off of much worse. At least she has a husband with character and integrity. And someone with that sort of integrity will no doubt be able to survive such a horrific loss of money. Someone who always does the right thing will find a way. I feel naught but pity then, because a man's first duty is to protect their family so that doesn't happen. A man's first duty is to show his wife and children what a man should be. Hiding behind possible consequences is cowardice at the deepest level.
This isn't some movie where an audience will applaud you for "being a man". When you say this:
"And someone with that sort of integrity will no doubt be able to survive such a horrific loss of money. Someone who always does the right thing will find a way."
Do you know how idealistic, unsubstantiated, and naive you sound?
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On October 19 2011 10:16 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 10:14 Carson wrote:On October 19 2011 10:04 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 09:52 Renent wrote:On October 19 2011 09:05 MERLIN. wrote:
Yeah someone smart would set up a barricade, anything all that shit beside the incident and wall the street off and call an ambulance, fuck it ifyou cut off traffic, but you DEFINATLY dont drag the body, ever!
You can help, but you dont have to kill the person in the process. In many cases you can be justified in moving a body, It all comes down to life over limb. And also, I am a short round shaped white boy if someone points a gun in my face they can have my money, shoes, hat whatever they want. You don't move the body ever, fuck limbs in that state you might be breaking arteries and only increasing the size of the wounds. You cannot move the patient. It depends on the situation, but 99% of the time, yes. However, if there is an immediate life-threat, then it's life over limb. Moving a person may cause bleeding or even paralysis, but not moving may cause immediate death. It's up to the discretion of the first-responder. Assuming neither of us has licensed training it should be a rule to never move it unless instructed by a professional
Not true. If a car is on fire, pretty sure it's safe to say anyone inside is in immediate danger.
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On October 19 2011 10:29 Xanbatou wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 10:16 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 10:14 Carson wrote:On October 19 2011 10:04 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 09:52 Renent wrote:On October 19 2011 09:05 MERLIN. wrote:
Yeah someone smart would set up a barricade, anything all that shit beside the incident and wall the street off and call an ambulance, fuck it ifyou cut off traffic, but you DEFINATLY dont drag the body, ever!
You can help, but you dont have to kill the person in the process. In many cases you can be justified in moving a body, It all comes down to life over limb. And also, I am a short round shaped white boy if someone points a gun in my face they can have my money, shoes, hat whatever they want. You don't move the body ever, fuck limbs in that state you might be breaking arteries and only increasing the size of the wounds. You cannot move the patient. It depends on the situation, but 99% of the time, yes. However, if there is an immediate life-threat, then it's life over limb. Moving a person may cause bleeding or even paralysis, but not moving may cause immediate death. It's up to the discretion of the first-responder. Assuming neither of us has licensed training it should be a rule to never move it unless instructed by a professional Not true. If a car is on fire, pretty sure it's safe to say anyone inside is in immediate danger.
to bad this entire topic isnt about a car on fire, so no, none of them should have even touched her to begin with, but they sure as hell should have blocked off the street and gotten help asap
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I agree with most of Blasterions comments. No one is arguing that the people who passed by were doing the right thing. Everyone agrees that saving the girl would have been the moral and "right" thing to do. It's simply that there are justifiable reasons why they did not help.
Alas, there is a huge gulf in opinion between those who have lived in China and those who are being armchair generals.
A lot of you have the luxury of of having grown up in relative luxury so you spout nonsense like I would gladly give up my life to save the life of one little girl. WAKE UP! Sacrificing your life for others who may or may not be grateful only leads to a bad ending where you are left with nothing for yourself and will be soon forgotten. Had this case not gotten the exposure that it did, I'm almost certain that the parents would have sued the cleaning lady for damages and they would have won. Chinese people will stop at nothing for $$.
The poor working class in China is merely trying to survive. Giving up everything of your own and even of your family's to save one little girl is proposterous.
Though perhaps some one should have at least called the cops.
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I wouldn't call Blasterion egocentric, his views are very different to ours, but in his own way he's a pretty good person too, I don't know if it's a cultural thing that he's so focussed on the family or if it belongs to him as a person, but he truly seems to care about his relatives.
Everyone has different reasons for acting the way he does, I do it because it feels good(/right) to do it, but for him it might be different, while I think that he would probably feel not very good if he'd leave the little girl to die on the middle of the street too, I know that he sees it in a wider picture, which barriers are defined by the members of his family insteadm while you see the whole society and act like a good example c24papa.
EDIT: I wrote about an hour on the post before this one and nobody seems to care about it :/
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@SilentchiLL
Your wall of text was interesting. However I really need to stress that what "feels right" isn't always "right" and can vary so much from person to person due to how limited an individual's perception is.
Basically you're saying that what is "right" is what your surroundings has shaped you to believe... since every single sane person in China will tell you to stay away from helping people you don't know because it has a very high rate of scam occurence, so for them, their "right" is different.
All of the greatest tyrants/criminals in history always believed adamantly that whatever they did was "right" and for some "greater good". It doesn't always make it so. Blind self-righteousness can cause unfathomable damage if not accompanied by a desire to learn and to understand.
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On October 19 2011 10:34 Necrophantasia wrote:
I agree with most of Blasterions comments. No one is arguing that the people who passed by were doing the right thing. Everyone agrees that saving the girl would have been the moral and "right" thing to do. It's simply that there are justifiable reasons why they did not help.
Alas, there is a huge gulf in opinion between those who have lived in China and those who are being armchair generals.
A lot of you have the luxury of of having grown up in relative luxury so you spout nonsense like I would gladly give up my life to save the life of one little girl. WAKE UP! Sacrificing your life for others who may or may not be grateful only leads to a bad ending where you are left with nothing for yourself and will be soon forgotten. Had this case not gotten the exposure that it did, I'm almost certain that the parents would have sued the cleaning lady for damages and they would have won. Chinese people will stop at nothing for $$.
The poor working class in China is merely trying to survive. Giving up everything of your own and even of your family's to save one little girl is proposterous.
Though perhaps some one should have at least called the cops.
Exactly. I wouldn't call their actions - or lack thereof - justified (although that's my righteousness talking) but I would certainly call it understandable now that I am aware of what actually goes on in China. I understand why nobody wanted to get involved personally but I don't think that's an excuse for not calling anyone and CERTAINLY not an excuse for the second driver running her over again!!! (Can't calls remain anonymous? Why didn't the second driver at the very least make an effort to go around her?)
However people have to remember that China might as well be an entirely different world. People who aren't like us REALLY aren't like us - not to mention this happened in Guandong, one of the absolute worst areas in China.
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On October 19 2011 10:36 RavenLoud wrote:
@SilentchiLL
Your wall of text was interesting. However I really need to stress that what "feels right" isn't always "right" and can vary so much from person to person due to how limited an individual's perception is.
Basically you're saying that what is "right" is what your surroundings has shaped you to believe... since every single sane person in China will tell you to stay away from helping people you don't know because it has a very high rate of scam occurence, so for them, their "right" is different.
All of the greatest tyrants/criminals in history always believed adamantly that whatever they did was "right" and for some "greater good". It doesn't always make it so. Blind self-righteousness can cause unfathomable damage if not accompanied by a desire to learn and to understand.
That's more or less exactly what I wanted to reach, I know that if I feel that something's "right" that that's a subjective statement, but since "right" always depends onthe perspective I'd definitly say that what I feel is right IS right.
I don't say that Blasterion is wrong, but the way he would act is definitly not what would be right by my definition, if I would have wanted to say that my definition is THE definition then I wouldn't have explained how it came about, by saying that I was shaped by other people and certain incidents I already give up the right to say that my way is THE way.
I just wanted to make him understand why I would do what I would do.
EDIT:
To clarify something, for me doing what's right is always right, I know that the course of actions he would take would actually go against his morale, but by finding logical reasons to bend his morale he still does the right thing in his opinion(not endangering his family for a kid he doesnt know, which sounds like the ethically right thing to do too, when you justify it like that and are willing to bend certain ethical principles)
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On October 19 2011 10:21 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 10:04 c24papa wrote:On October 19 2011 09:37 Supamang wrote:
Interesting.
Im willing to bet that the same people spouting rainbows and unicorns about helping people despite the very possible very harsh consequences would also be the ones running away from someone being mugged by a bum with a 9mm pistol.
Actually then, let me pose that question to you guys (Magic_Mike and SilentchiLL). If some old lady was being robbed by a masked guy with a gun, would you go help her? Its definitely the right thing to do. How the fuck can you compare the two? One being the certain death of a child which you know you can and should do something without immidiently risking your life. The other being an old woman most likely lose some valueables and he will will a very high probability not do any harm to her, while your involvement could risk both your lives.
Involving yourself in that situation is not the right thing to do its the extremely stupid thing to do. If you knew her life is at stake then the situaition is completely different. If you want an example that more fits into this case it would be that a robber with a knife robs someone, and you have a gun at your disposal. Then you have the means to do something and save the situation. Like the people in this video. You are mixing brave thing and stupid thing to do. Bahaha Oh how quickly they fall from their moral high horses. Knowing that there is a chance the man might kill you, you justify not helping her. And here we can see that you OBVIOUSLY are not motivated by what's 'RIGHT'. You are just as worried about your personal safety as the chinese people in this situation were about themselves and their families. You AND they immediately began justifying and fortifying your decision. Bullshit bolded. First, they ARE risking their lives and the lives of their families by helping. This has been addressed exhaustively in this thread by the chinese posters. If you want to believe that they're all in on this big internet conspiracy or they're all evil yellow-bellied villains, you should probably go ride off into fairy land on your magic fucking unicorn. Second, you make up excuses not to help; "He probably won't kill her if I don't get involved" " Someone else will call the police, I don't want people to think I'm responsible for this little girl, or I might have to pay for her hospital bill." Third, you come up with reasons to not do something which is, by your previous definitions, 'RIGHT'. You claim that it's stupid to act in this situation. I agree. The exact same applies to the chinese passerby. THERE IS A DAMN GOOD CHANCE THIS IS/WILL TURN INTO A SCAM. That's how bad it is there. The world's a dark fucking place. I hope to god you never see the fact that there is no concrete wrong and no concrete right. Speaking from experience, it's a painful realization.
Yeah, another condecending asshole..
The world is so much darker and evil than my naive fairy tale life blah blah blah..
The two situations are miles apart..
- Being robbed and bleeding to death is a pretty big difference.
- Helping a child lying on the ground helpless by doing pretty much anything, and desarming a robber with a gun is not even in the same fucking ballpark.
- Getting gunned down on the street and a may or may not scam which you have no idea is going to happen or not, also a big difference.
- I wont get involved because I am risking both our lives to disarm a man for a robbery that might turn bad, opposed to letting a child die on the street because of the chance that I may have to pay the medical bills. Yeah clearly the same thing, I can see you come from a dark place..
If I had the possibility to do something in the robber situation that would save that old womans life I would, if she were in danger of losing it. But I have training in that sort of thing.
Does every time someone save someones life in China the get ruined for life, do you really believe that? Are you serious?
Something dangerous might happen outside of the front door, best stay in the house for the rest of my life.
User was warned for this post
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On October 19 2011 10:45 c24papa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 10:21 Jormundr wrote:On October 19 2011 10:04 c24papa wrote:On October 19 2011 09:37 Supamang wrote:
Interesting.
Im willing to bet that the same people spouting rainbows and unicorns about helping people despite the very possible very harsh consequences would also be the ones running away from someone being mugged by a bum with a 9mm pistol.
Actually then, let me pose that question to you guys (Magic_Mike and SilentchiLL). If some old lady was being robbed by a masked guy with a gun, would you go help her? Its definitely the right thing to do. How the fuck can you compare the two? One being the certain death of a child which you know you can and should do something without immidiently risking your life. The other being an old woman most likely lose some valueables and he will will a very high probability not do any harm to her, while your involvement could risk both your lives.
Involving yourself in that situation is not the right thing to do its the extremely stupid thing to do. If you knew her life is at stake then the situaition is completely different. If you want an example that more fits into this case it would be that a robber with a knife robs someone, and you have a gun at your disposal. Then you have the means to do something and save the situation. Like the people in this video. You are mixing brave thing and stupid thing to do. Bahaha Oh how quickly they fall from their moral high horses. Knowing that there is a chance the man might kill you, you justify not helping her. And here we can see that you OBVIOUSLY are not motivated by what's 'RIGHT'. You are just as worried about your personal safety as the chinese people in this situation were about themselves and their families. You AND they immediately began justifying and fortifying your decision. Bullshit bolded. First, they ARE risking their lives and the lives of their families by helping. This has been addressed exhaustively in this thread by the chinese posters. If you want to believe that they're all in on this big internet conspiracy or they're all evil yellow-bellied villains, you should probably go ride off into fairy land on your magic fucking unicorn. Second, you make up excuses not to help; "He probably won't kill her if I don't get involved" " Someone else will call the police, I don't want people to think I'm responsible for this little girl, or I might have to pay for her hospital bill." Third, you come up with reasons to not do something which is, by your previous definitions, 'RIGHT'. You claim that it's stupid to act in this situation. I agree. The exact same applies to the chinese passerby. THERE IS A DAMN GOOD CHANCE THIS IS/WILL TURN INTO A SCAM. That's how bad it is there. The world's a dark fucking place. I hope to god you never see the fact that there is no concrete wrong and no concrete right. Speaking from experience, it's a painful realization. Yeah, another condecending asshole.. The world is so much darker and evil than my naive fairy tale life blah blah blah.. The two situations are miles apart.. - Being robbed and bleeding to death is a pretty big difference. - Helping a child lying on the ground helpless by doing pretty much anything, and desarming a robber with a gun is not even in the same fucking ballpark. - Getting gunned down on the street and a may or may not scam which you have no idea is going to happen or not, also a big difference. - I wont get involved because I am risking both our lives to disarm a man for a robbery that might turn bad, opposed to letting a child die on the street because of the chance that I may have to pay the medical bills. Yeah clearly the same thing, I can see you come from a dark place.. If I had the possibility to do something in the robber situation that would save that old womans life I would, if she were in danger of losing it. But I have training in that sort of thing. Does every time someone save someones life in China the get ruined for life, do you really believe that? Are you serious? Something dangerous might happen outside of the front door, best stay in the house for the rest of my life.
Just take this with a grain of salt, your life do not belong to you alone
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My words cannot simply explain my emotion towards the bystanders.
Not sure if anyone mention this if they did i apologize.
Doctors said the girl died yesterday from severe brain injuries she had suffered in the accident.
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On October 19 2011 10:45 c24papa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 10:21 Jormundr wrote:On October 19 2011 10:04 c24papa wrote:On October 19 2011 09:37 Supamang wrote:
Interesting.
Im willing to bet that the same people spouting rainbows and unicorns about helping people despite the very possible very harsh consequences would also be the ones running away from someone being mugged by a bum with a 9mm pistol.
Actually then, let me pose that question to you guys (Magic_Mike and SilentchiLL). If some old lady was being robbed by a masked guy with a gun, would you go help her? Its definitely the right thing to do. How the fuck can you compare the two? One being the certain death of a child which you know you can and should do something without immidiently risking your life. The other being an old woman most likely lose some valueables and he will will a very high probability not do any harm to her, while your involvement could risk both your lives.
Involving yourself in that situation is not the right thing to do its the extremely stupid thing to do. If you knew her life is at stake then the situaition is completely different. If you want an example that more fits into this case it would be that a robber with a knife robs someone, and you have a gun at your disposal. Then you have the means to do something and save the situation. Like the people in this video. You are mixing brave thing and stupid thing to do. Bahaha Oh how quickly they fall from their moral high horses. Knowing that there is a chance the man might kill you, you justify not helping her. And here we can see that you OBVIOUSLY are not motivated by what's 'RIGHT'. You are just as worried about your personal safety as the chinese people in this situation were about themselves and their families. You AND they immediately began justifying and fortifying your decision. Bullshit bolded. First, they ARE risking their lives and the lives of their families by helping. This has been addressed exhaustively in this thread by the chinese posters. If you want to believe that they're all in on this big internet conspiracy or they're all evil yellow-bellied villains, you should probably go ride off into fairy land on your magic fucking unicorn. Second, you make up excuses not to help; "He probably won't kill her if I don't get involved" " Someone else will call the police, I don't want people to think I'm responsible for this little girl, or I might have to pay for her hospital bill." Third, you come up with reasons to not do something which is, by your previous definitions, 'RIGHT'. You claim that it's stupid to act in this situation. I agree. The exact same applies to the chinese passerby. THERE IS A DAMN GOOD CHANCE THIS IS/WILL TURN INTO A SCAM. That's how bad it is there. The world's a dark fucking place. I hope to god you never see the fact that there is no concrete wrong and no concrete right. Speaking from experience, it's a painful realization. Yeah, another condecending asshole.. The world is so much darker and evil than my naive fairy tale life blah blah blah.. The two situations are miles apart.. - Being robbed and bleeding to death is a pretty big difference. - Helping a child lying on the ground helpless by doing pretty much anything, and desarming a robber with a gun is not even in the same fucking ballpark. - Getting gunned down on the street and a may or may not scam which you have no idea is going to happen or not, also a big difference. - I wont get involved because I am risking both our lives to disarm a man for a robbery that might turn bad, opposed to letting a child die on the street because of the chance that I may have to pay the medical bills. Yeah clearly the same thing, I can see you come from a dark place.. If I had the possibility to do something in the robber situation that would save that old womans life I would, if she were in danger of losing it. But I have training in that sort of thing. Does every time someone save someones life in China the get ruined for life, do you really believe that? Are you serious? Something dangerous might happen outside of the front door, best stay in the house for the rest of my life.
Nice hypocrisy.
You and Silentchill are stating that everyone, everywhere, should always do the "right" thing. When the right thing happens to be helping a Chinese girl, when all the other mean, bad, stupid, evil Chinese are doing nothing, then it's commendable and you should applaud yourself.
Nevermind the numerous reasons that REAL Chinese people from China (not Europeans who've never been to China) have given for why the people walking by might not want to help.
Then we throw a situation at you where there's also a clear "right" thing to do. But in this case, you won't do the right thing. Why? Oh, because it might involve personal harm to you. Nevermind the fact that helping the girl might involve personal harm to the Chinese people.
So is your position "always do the right thing, except when your own neck might be on the line?"
Nice stable moral position you have there.
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On October 19 2011 10:48 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 10:45 c24papa wrote:On October 19 2011 10:21 Jormundr wrote:On October 19 2011 10:04 c24papa wrote:On October 19 2011 09:37 Supamang wrote:
Interesting.
Im willing to bet that the same people spouting rainbows and unicorns about helping people despite the very possible very harsh consequences would also be the ones running away from someone being mugged by a bum with a 9mm pistol.
Actually then, let me pose that question to you guys (Magic_Mike and SilentchiLL). If some old lady was being robbed by a masked guy with a gun, would you go help her? Its definitely the right thing to do. How the fuck can you compare the two? One being the certain death of a child which you know you can and should do something without immidiently risking your life. The other being an old woman most likely lose some valueables and he will will a very high probability not do any harm to her, while your involvement could risk both your lives.
Involving yourself in that situation is not the right thing to do its the extremely stupid thing to do. If you knew her life is at stake then the situaition is completely different. If you want an example that more fits into this case it would be that a robber with a knife robs someone, and you have a gun at your disposal. Then you have the means to do something and save the situation. Like the people in this video. You are mixing brave thing and stupid thing to do. Bahaha Oh how quickly they fall from their moral high horses. Knowing that there is a chance the man might kill you, you justify not helping her. And here we can see that you OBVIOUSLY are not motivated by what's 'RIGHT'. You are just as worried about your personal safety as the chinese people in this situation were about themselves and their families. You AND they immediately began justifying and fortifying your decision. Bullshit bolded. First, they ARE risking their lives and the lives of their families by helping. This has been addressed exhaustively in this thread by the chinese posters. If you want to believe that they're all in on this big internet conspiracy or they're all evil yellow-bellied villains, you should probably go ride off into fairy land on your magic fucking unicorn. Second, you make up excuses not to help; "He probably won't kill her if I don't get involved" " Someone else will call the police, I don't want people to think I'm responsible for this little girl, or I might have to pay for her hospital bill." Third, you come up with reasons to not do something which is, by your previous definitions, 'RIGHT'. You claim that it's stupid to act in this situation. I agree. The exact same applies to the chinese passerby. THERE IS A DAMN GOOD CHANCE THIS IS/WILL TURN INTO A SCAM. That's how bad it is there. The world's a dark fucking place. I hope to god you never see the fact that there is no concrete wrong and no concrete right. Speaking from experience, it's a painful realization. Yeah, another condecending asshole.. The world is so much darker and evil than my naive fairy tale life blah blah blah.. The two situations are miles apart.. - Being robbed and bleeding to death is a pretty big difference. - Helping a child lying on the ground helpless by doing pretty much anything, and desarming a robber with a gun is not even in the same fucking ballpark. - Getting gunned down on the street and a may or may not scam which you have no idea is going to happen or not, also a big difference. - I wont get involved because I am risking both our lives to disarm a man for a robbery that might turn bad, opposed to letting a child die on the street because of the chance that I may have to pay the medical bills. Yeah clearly the same thing, I can see you come from a dark place.. If I had the possibility to do something in the robber situation that would save that old womans life I would, if she were in danger of losing it. But I have training in that sort of thing. Does every time someone save someones life in China the get ruined for life, do you really believe that? Are you serious? Something dangerous might happen outside of the front door, best stay in the house for the rest of my life. Just take this with a grain of salt, your life do not belong to you alone
Just to clarify.
Are you making a religiuos statement?
Are you refering my life as a part of a family, a society or humanity?
You were a bit vague there. Just want to know what you mean.
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On October 19 2011 10:53 c24papa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 10:48 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 10:45 c24papa wrote:On October 19 2011 10:21 Jormundr wrote:On October 19 2011 10:04 c24papa wrote:On October 19 2011 09:37 Supamang wrote:
Interesting.
Im willing to bet that the same people spouting rainbows and unicorns about helping people despite the very possible very harsh consequences would also be the ones running away from someone being mugged by a bum with a 9mm pistol.
Actually then, let me pose that question to you guys (Magic_Mike and SilentchiLL). If some old lady was being robbed by a masked guy with a gun, would you go help her? Its definitely the right thing to do. How the fuck can you compare the two? One being the certain death of a child which you know you can and should do something without immidiently risking your life. The other being an old woman most likely lose some valueables and he will will a very high probability not do any harm to her, while your involvement could risk both your lives.
Involving yourself in that situation is not the right thing to do its the extremely stupid thing to do. If you knew her life is at stake then the situaition is completely different. If you want an example that more fits into this case it would be that a robber with a knife robs someone, and you have a gun at your disposal. Then you have the means to do something and save the situation. Like the people in this video. You are mixing brave thing and stupid thing to do. Bahaha Oh how quickly they fall from their moral high horses. Knowing that there is a chance the man might kill you, you justify not helping her. And here we can see that you OBVIOUSLY are not motivated by what's 'RIGHT'. You are just as worried about your personal safety as the chinese people in this situation were about themselves and their families. You AND they immediately began justifying and fortifying your decision. Bullshit bolded. First, they ARE risking their lives and the lives of their families by helping. This has been addressed exhaustively in this thread by the chinese posters. If you want to believe that they're all in on this big internet conspiracy or they're all evil yellow-bellied villains, you should probably go ride off into fairy land on your magic fucking unicorn. Second, you make up excuses not to help; "He probably won't kill her if I don't get involved" " Someone else will call the police, I don't want people to think I'm responsible for this little girl, or I might have to pay for her hospital bill." Third, you come up with reasons to not do something which is, by your previous definitions, 'RIGHT'. You claim that it's stupid to act in this situation. I agree. The exact same applies to the chinese passerby. THERE IS A DAMN GOOD CHANCE THIS IS/WILL TURN INTO A SCAM. That's how bad it is there. The world's a dark fucking place. I hope to god you never see the fact that there is no concrete wrong and no concrete right. Speaking from experience, it's a painful realization. Yeah, another condecending asshole.. The world is so much darker and evil than my naive fairy tale life blah blah blah.. The two situations are miles apart.. - Being robbed and bleeding to death is a pretty big difference. - Helping a child lying on the ground helpless by doing pretty much anything, and desarming a robber with a gun is not even in the same fucking ballpark. - Getting gunned down on the street and a may or may not scam which you have no idea is going to happen or not, also a big difference. - I wont get involved because I am risking both our lives to disarm a man for a robbery that might turn bad, opposed to letting a child die on the street because of the chance that I may have to pay the medical bills. Yeah clearly the same thing, I can see you come from a dark place.. If I had the possibility to do something in the robber situation that would save that old womans life I would, if she were in danger of losing it. But I have training in that sort of thing. Does every time someone save someones life in China the get ruined for life, do you really believe that? Are you serious? Something dangerous might happen outside of the front door, best stay in the house for the rest of my life. Just take this with a grain of salt, your life do not belong to you alone Just to clarify. Are you making a religiuos statement? Are you refering my life as a part of a family, a society or humanity? You were a bit vague there. Just want to know what you mean.
Some people may rely on you to support their livelihood so take that in to consideration, that is all and no not at all religious
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On October 19 2011 09:37 Supamang wrote:
Interesting.
Im willing to bet that the same people spouting rainbows and unicorns about helping people despite the very possible very harsh consequences would also be the ones running away from someone being mugged by a bum with a 9mm pistol.
Actually then, let me pose that question to you guys (Magic_Mike and SilentchiLL). If some old lady was being robbed by a masked guy with a gun, would you go help her? Its definitely the right thing to do.
I carry 24/7, yes, I'd help her and end the threat against her. To assume 'everyone' is afraid to act is to forget we have tons of current and ex-military/LE types running around.
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On October 19 2011 10:51 TriO wrote:
My words cannot simply explain my emotion towards the bystanders.
Not sure if anyone mention this if they did i apologize.
Doctors said the girl died yesterday from severe brain injuries she had suffered in the accident.
Do you have the source for the news? I've seen a couple articles that she's dead, some she's alive and stabilizing. Hopefully the latter
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On October 19 2011 10:23 c24papa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 10:03 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 09:49 c24papa wrote:On October 19 2011 09:15 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 09:13 SilentchiLL wrote:On October 19 2011 09:10 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 09:03 Magic_Mike wrote:On October 19 2011 09:00 madcow305 wrote:On October 19 2011 08:58 SilentchiLL wrote:On October 19 2011 08:54 madcow305 wrote:
Silentchill, I like how you're unashamedly debating logic with feeling and arguing that doing what's "right" is somehow always better than doing what's intelligent.
You might as well be posting gibberish, you have no standpoint other than you feel that your position is "right."
Blasterion should have ignored you a long time ago. The question is, do I need more? I want to be able to look in the mirror and be proud, I don't want to lay in my bed and have regrets and there's no way that I would want to get reminded of the bleeding 2 year old little girl I left lying on the street to die, everytime I see a child. So you help, parents sue you, fuked up Chinese courts rule against you, you pay 500,000 euro a year for the rest of your life. Then 5 years later, when your kids are following you around the slums while you dig through garbage cans for dinner, your wife asks you how they got in this mess. Your reply? "It was the right thing to do." See how long she and her children can live off those words. As long as it takes. People have lived off of much worse. At least she has a husband with character and integrity. And someone with that sort of integrity will no doubt be able to survive such a horrific loss of money. Someone who always does the right thing will find a way. I feel naught but pity then, because a man's first duty is to protect their family so that doesn't happen. Hmm atleast it was made obvious now why our opinions are so different, I always thought that it's the first duty of a man to do what's right. The term "right" is extremely subjective, tell me your definition of this right of yours, I can clearly define exactly what I should be doing and that is what's in the best interest of my family, but I am eager to learn this right that you speak of Yeah, everything is relative and all that. Being so hostile against our "western morale", emotional nonesense and how "stupid ignorant euro kids and american redneck know nothing about China" does not make you any more right or wrong, so why dont you tone down your condesending BS. While I agree that your logical argument on why they are behaving as they are indeed valid, so are many other logical reasoning for doing things. Theifs stealing to provide for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Scammers scamming people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Robber robbing a grocery shop, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Hitmen making a living kiling people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Leaders of crime syndicates doing horrible things to others without the slightest regard for others, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy. Hell while we are at it Stalin and Hitler killed millions and millions people, for their familiy (The third Reich and Sovjet in this case) use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy By your argument these are all valid logical reasonings, which they may as well be, but even you can see a big difference from doing right from wrong and that logical reason is not what matters in some cases, especially when it comes to human lives.. Everything can be explained in some off sense of necessity for protect or providing in any crime. Doesnt make it any more right or wrong. My opinion is that they are egosentric cowards whom should look in disgust at themselves everytime they look in the mirror. Id rather look in a poor mans mirror with pride and selfworth than in a rich mans mirror knowing i have killed a baby. But as you so nicely put it, thats just me being a moral-faggot That's exactly it though since because of your morals you lost sight of what you truly should be protecting. This isn't just you it's you and your family, your parents' retirement fund, your children's future education. If you are willing to risk all that, I have every right to define it as moral faggotry Great job not addressing my real point.. But to what you addressed, then of course you have the right to do that. And I have the right to define the reasoning you present as cowardness, naive, shortsighted and egosentric. What I truly should be protecting? Do you have the right answer on who and what I should protect? Are your priorities better than mine because you only want to protect your familiy and i see a bigger scale picture? Funny how my morals have made me lost sight of what your morals defines as "what I truly should be protecting". The way I see it I am protecting humanity, my culture, my society and what I believe in by acting like I would like all those around me to act. Something I am pretty sure you cant say the same about.How can I want everyone else to act after my morals and values and in the way I would like otfers to behave if I do not do it myself? I have only one life that I know of and I will spend it according to the morale I wish others after me should have. I would rather be a father that gives my children good values and little money than a father that gives them money and shit values. There are worse things in life than poverty in my opinion. And id much rather have people believing in the greater good of man than believing in the familiy's wellbeing. What a hellhole this world would be then. ( Or even more of a hellhole if you like)
It's funny, I manage to agree with everyone you say, yet disagree because your reasoning fonction off of some critical assumptions that are not the case in China.
Martyrdom that you describe really depends on luck rather than on "right vs wrong", if you end up getting screwed over by the system, than you can accomplish nothing for the world being a homeless man and abandoning your duty to your family. In fact you'd be an example to others to not ever be a "good person"...
Do you have ANY idea how the communist party severly punished ANYONE who even remotely said ANYTHING wrong? My great-grandma was a rural school teacher. In the 50s, the communist called all intellectual to give them suggestions about how to run things. Many, like my great-grandma, denonced the over-authoritarian and uneducated approach of some communist officials (in her case, it was the school principal who abused his power quite a bit).
This "calling" was a TRAP! Everyone who spoke against the ruling party has been labeled as "rightists", and were basically send to rot in the country. Their entire family was to be denied of all chances to make something out of their lives due to this label. At the time, my grandma, grandpa and their brothers and sisters were some of the most brillant (not to brag but true) students who had bright careers ahead of them, they were completely denied and spend years slaving away for peanuts. Even though years of hard work has paid off in many ways after the cultural revolution (which allowed them the means to send me and my parents to Canada eventually), their careers and the lives have been devastated by the label of "rightists".
Please do not assume that the "greater good" can be called for anything against the power or the money, especially not in China.
The source of the problems are social, and they can't be changed unless the the million things related to it all change, the new economical reforms has made everything 100x uglier.
After everything that China has went through in the past century, I think its people has learned to be cautious of rash emotional zealotry, especially after the cultural revolution. The only permanent approach is to make sure that the next generation get shielded from all the crap, and so they can get an education to truly change how things work with thinkings similar to your own.
Patience is key to the success of this process.
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EPT
