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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
Im willing to bet that the same people spouting rainbows and unicorns about helping people despite the very possible very harsh consequences would also be the ones running away from someone being mugged by a bum with a 9mm pistol. Actually then, let me pose that question to you guys (Magic_Mike and SilentchiLL). If some old lady was being robbed by a masked guy with a gun, would you go help her? Its definitely the right thing to do. | ||
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freddievercetti
224 Posts
Look no further than Hong Kong Princess. | ||
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Jindo
United States1305 Posts
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Magic_Mike
United States542 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:37 Supamang wrote: Interesting. Im willing to bet that the same people spouting rainbows and unicorns about helping people despite the very possible very harsh consequences would also be the ones running away from someone being mugged by a bum with a 9mm pistol. Actually then, let me pose that question to you guys (Magic_Mike and SilentchiLL). If some old lady was being robbed by a masked guy with a gun, would you go help her? Its definitely the right thing to do. Yes. Been in a similar situation before in fact. While I didn't physically attack the guy mugging my brother's friend, I tried talking him out of knifing him and even gave him all the money I had on me (wasn't much, I was only 14) and he eventually left. Nobody was killed. Actually when I was younger I always wanted to be a police officer as a result of this experience. | ||
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:44 Magic_Mike wrote: Yes. Been in a similar situation before in fact. While I didn't physically attack the guy mugging my brother's friend, I tried talking him out of knifing him and even gave him all the money I had on me (wasn't much, I was only 14) and he eventually left. Nobody was killed. Actually when I was younger I always wanted to be a police officer as a result of this experience. Impressive. Consider my words eaten. I would like to think that I would do the same, but if the guy had a gun Id be more worried about the victim getting shot if I take him by surprise. Either way, kudos to you sir | ||
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c24papa
Norway46 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:15 Blasterion wrote: The term "right" is extremely subjective, tell me your definition of this right of yours, I can clearly define exactly what I should be doing and that is what's in the best interest of my family, but I am eager to learn this right that you speak of Yeah, everything is relative and all that. Being so hostile against our "western morale", emotional nonesense and how "stupid ignorant euro kids and american redneck know nothing about China" does not make you any more right or wrong, so why dont you tone down your condesending BS. While I agree that your logical argument on why they are behaving as they are indeed valid, so are many other logical reasoning for doing things. Theifs stealing to provide for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Scammers scamming people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Robber robbing a grocery shop, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Hitmen making a living kiling people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Leaders of crime syndicates doing horrible things to others without the slightest regard for others, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy. Hell while we are at it Stalin and Hitler killed millions and millions people, for their familiy (The third Reich and Sovjet in this case) use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy By your argument these are all valid logical reasonings, which they may as well be, but even you can see a big difference from doing right from wrong and that logical reason is not what matters in some cases, especially when it comes to human lives.. Everything can be explained in some off sense of necessity for protect or providing in any crime. Doesnt make it any more right or wrong. My opinion is that they are egosentric cowards whom should look in disgust at themselves everytime they look in the mirror. Id rather look in a poor mans mirror with pride and selfworth than in a rich mans mirror knowing i have killed a baby. But as you so nicely put it, thats just me being a moral-faggot | ||
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HotCookies
Greece149 Posts
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Renent
Canada302 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:05 MERLIN. wrote: Yeah someone smart would set up a barricade, anything all that shit beside the incident and wall the street off and call an ambulance, fuck it ifyou cut off traffic, but you DEFINATLY dont drag the body, ever! You can help, but you dont have to kill the person in the process. In many cases you can be justified in moving a body, It all comes down to life over limb. And also, I am a short round shaped white boy if someone points a gun in my face they can have my money, shoes, hat whatever they want. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:49 c24papa wrote: Yeah, everything is relative and all that. Being so hostile against our "western morale", emotional nonesense and how "stupid ignorant euro kids and american redneck know nothing about China" does not make you any more right or wrong, so why dont you tone down your condesending BS. While I agree that your logical argument on why they are behaving as they are indeed valid, so are many other logical reasoning for doing things. Theifs stealing to provide for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Scammers scamming people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Robber robbing a grocery shop, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Hitmen making a living kiling people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Leaders of crime syndicates doing horrible things to others without the slightest regard for others, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy. Hell while we are at it Stalin and Hitler killed millions and millions people, for their familiy (The third Reich and Sovjet in this case) use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy By your argument these are all valid logical reasonings, which they may as well be, but even you can see a big difference from doing right from wrong and that logical reason is not what matters in some cases, especially when it comes to human lives.. Everything can be explained in some off sense of necessity for protect or providing in any crime. Doesnt make it any more right or wrong. My opinion is that they are egosentric cowards whom should look in disgust at themselves everytime they look in the mirror. Id rather look in a poor mans mirror with pride and selfworth than in a rich mans mirror knowing i have killed a baby. But as you so nicely put it, thats just me being a moral-faggot That's exactly it though since because of your morals you lost sight of what you truly should be protecting. This isn't just you it's you and your family, your parents' retirement fund, your children's future education. If you are willing to risk all that, I have every right to define it as moral faggotry | ||
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c24papa
Norway46 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:37 Supamang wrote: Interesting. Im willing to bet that the same people spouting rainbows and unicorns about helping people despite the very possible very harsh consequences would also be the ones running away from someone being mugged by a bum with a 9mm pistol. Actually then, let me pose that question to you guys (Magic_Mike and SilentchiLL). If some old lady was being robbed by a masked guy with a gun, would you go help her? Its definitely the right thing to do. How the fuck can you compare the two? One being the certain death of a child which you know you can and should do something without immidiently risking your life. The other being an old woman most likely lose some valueables and he will will a very high probability not do any harm to her, while your involvement could risk both your lives. Involving yourself in that situation is not the right thing to do its the extremely stupid thing to do. If you knew her life is at stake then the situaition is completely different. If you want an example that more fits into this case it would be that a robber with a knife robs someone, and you have a gun at your disposal. Then you have the means to do something and save the situation. Like the people in this video. You are mixing brave thing and stupid thing to do. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:52 Renent wrote: In many cases you can be justified in moving a body, It all comes down to life over limb. And also, I am a short round shaped white boy if someone points a gun in my face they can have my money, shoes, hat whatever they want. You don't move the body ever, fuck limbs in that state you might be breaking arteries and only increasing the size of the wounds. You cannot move the patient. | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:37 Supamang wrote: Interesting. Im willing to bet that the same people spouting rainbows and unicorns about helping people despite the very possible very harsh consequences would also be the ones running away from someone being mugged by a bum with a 9mm pistol. Actually then, let me pose that question to you guys (Magic_Mike and SilentchiLL). If some old lady was being robbed by a masked guy with a gun, would you go help her? Its definitely the right thing to do. Sure, when a gun is involved and some one is getting hurt people's answers change.. But when its a four year old lying on a street, dying, I just can't phantom walking away. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:49 c24papa wrote: Yeah, everything is relative and all that. Being so hostile against our "western morale", emotional nonesense and how "stupid ignorant euro kids and american redneck know nothing about China" does not make you any more right or wrong, so why dont you tone down your condesending BS. While I agree that your logical argument on why they are behaving as they are indeed valid, so are many other logical reasoning for doing things. Theifs stealing to provide for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Scammers scamming people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Robber robbing a grocery shop, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Hitmen making a living kiling people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Leaders of crime syndicates doing horrible things to others without the slightest regard for others, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy. Hell while we are at it Stalin and Hitler killed millions and millions people, for their familiy (The third Reich and Sovjet in this case) use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy By your argument these are all valid logical reasonings, which they may as well be, but even you can see a big difference from doing right from wrong and that logical reason is not what matters in some cases, especially when it comes to human lives.. Everything can be explained in some off sense of necessity for protect or providing in any crime. Doesnt make it any more right or wrong. My opinion is that they are egosentric cowards whom should look in disgust at themselves everytime they look in the mirror. Id rather look in a poor mans mirror with pride and selfworth than in a rich mans mirror knowing i have killed a baby. But as you so nicely put it, thats just me being a moral-faggot I think you go a bit far comparing the act of not taking a risk to endanger your family, and do everything possible for your family even if it hurts others. If anything, this shows that the real problem is with the system. People just do what they can to cope. Anyone who really understands China would not be screaming cowards left and right. That's what most people are trying to explain. No one is saying that it would be somehow "wrong" to help the kid. The old lady has been awarded by the way, I hope this sets a new precedent. I'm also very appalled by her daughter's comment... I don't disagree with anything you said, there certainly is condescending tension and I'd prefer if everyone can drop it. Blasterion is on the calmer side of things most of the time, we would all be tired if self-righteous assumptions are presented to us 45 pages in a row, | ||
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Carson
Canada820 Posts
On October 19 2011 10:04 Blasterion wrote: You don't move the body ever, fuck limbs in that state you might be breaking arteries and only increasing the size of the wounds. You cannot move the patient. It depends on the situation, but 99% of the time, yes. However, if there is an immediate life-threat, then it's life over limb. Moving a person may cause bleeding or even paralysis, but not moving may cause immediate death. It's up to the discretion of the first-responder. | ||
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Taesis
Canada51 Posts
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On October 19 2011 10:14 Carson wrote: It depends on the situation, but 99% of the time, yes. However, if there is an immediate life-threat, then it's life over limb. Moving a person may cause bleeding or even paralysis, but not moving may cause immediate death. It's up to the discretion of the first-responder. Assuming neither of us has licensed training it should be a rule to never move it unless instructed by a professional | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:15 Blasterion wrote: The term "right" is extremely subjective, tell me your definition of this right of yours, I can clearly define exactly what I should be doing and that is what's in the best interest of my family, but I am eager to learn this right that you speak of By the way, it's very interestering to see how centered your thinking on your family is. Describing my definition of right isn't easy, although you should have a picture of that inside of your head by now after reading my posts, to be honest I would probably need pretty long to do it in a clear fashion, but I will try it for you. "Right" is of course always that which feels right, the beauty lies in the simplicity here, if we would take the case of the little girl as an example, it would feel right to help her and I know that I would feel horrible if I wouldn't do so, so I do it. If I would have to explain where these feelings come from I would say, from different persons who had a great influence on my life and my character, for example my grandfather of my father's side of the family, he's dead, but when he was still alive I visited pretty often and we usually worked in his house or his garden together, which he had to keep intact alone after his wife died (he liked to do so though). He never talked much, but sometimes he liked to tell me stories about his youth (he grew up shortly after the war), he was always a man who did things his way and did what he thought was right, he never said to me help those who need help or do what you think is right, he just did that, when something bigger in our house was broken he always came without saying much, repaired it, ate supper with us and went home again. When I was still pretty young he built a treehouse for me and my two brothers during his holidays (he worked for many years as the first blaster of a stone pit not very far from here) when I asked him he just needed something to do so he wouldn't be bored and sent me chopping wood in his backyard for the fireplace in his living room. Another man who had a great influence on me was the teacher who took care of my class for 5 or 6 years(not sure right now), he is a very educated and strong man, probably the best man I know and maybe the best one I ever will know, he is not the kind of teacher, which makes makes you laugh through the whole class(although he had a nice humor), he is one of those men who naturally get respected by his colleagues and students alike, he was hard but fair and never had a problem with admitting his own mistakes. One could say that he was from the old school I guess. I could write much more about him now, but that would take too much time, he's a great and a good man and although he was always pretty strict one of his favourite sentences was :"Be generous!" He didn't mean that we should give others something from our material possessions, he ment that we should forgive the weaknesses of ones character, mistakes others do (might be that he ment "Be generous with forgiveness!" but "Be generous!" just sounds better I guess, especially in german and I never questioned what it ment(since he tended to make that clear in a sentence or two after saying "Be generous!" to us)). My parents had a great influence on me too ofc, my father is rather one of the funny type and my mother is from the hard but loving type, one of the most influencing things my father did to me was probably to give a book when I was 8. I came to him and said that I was bored(no idea why I did that), then he took a book from his bed table and gave it to me, it was the first novel of the Pandemia books, from the first row called "A man of his word" from Dave Duncan(you guys should really check his works out, he's amazing and after all those years still my favourite author I read the rest of his books too, and once my english was good enough I read those books which weren't translated to german yet in english instead(in today's days I read many of the books I read in english for example atm I read the fifth novel of a song of ice and fire) lateron I read David Gemmell's books too (Druss the Legend always reminded me of my grandfather) and of course many more. Although I read pretty much everything today Fantasy is still my favourite genre, I really like dark fantasy and low fantasy, I've read a lot of epic high fantasy like Tolkien's works too already. The books probably had a big influence on my character today too, although I'm actually a natural cynicist(I know that doesn't really fit my opinion on the matter we were disscussing) but at the same time I am VERY romantic... That basically means that I know that I'm sometimes acting stupid and that only an Idiot would behave like that, but I can't do much about it, I will do what's right because it feels right. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On October 19 2011 10:04 c24papa wrote: How the fuck can you compare the two? One being the certain death of a child which you know you can and should do something without immidiently risking your life. The other being an old woman most likely lose some valueables and he will will a very high probability not do any harm to her, while your involvement could risk both your lives. Involving yourself in that situation is not the right thing to do its the extremely stupid thing to do. If you knew her life is at stake then the situaition is completely different. If you want an example that more fits into this case it would be that a robber with a knife robs someone, and you have a gun at your disposal. Then you have the means to do something and save the situation. Like the people in this video. You are mixing brave thing and stupid thing to do. Bahaha Oh how quickly they fall from their moral high horses. Knowing that there is a chance the man might kill you, you justify not helping her. And here we can see that you OBVIOUSLY are not motivated by what's 'RIGHT'. You are just as worried about your personal safety as the chinese people in this situation were about themselves and their families. You AND they immediately began justifying and fortifying your decision. Bullshit bolded. First, they ARE risking their lives and the lives of their families by helping. This has been addressed exhaustively in this thread by the chinese posters. If you want to believe that they're all in on this big internet conspiracy or they're all evil yellow-bellied villains, you should probably go ride off into fairy land on your magic fucking unicorn. Second, you make up excuses not to help; "He probably won't kill her if I don't get involved" " Someone else will call the police, I don't want people to think I'm responsible for this little girl, or I might have to pay for her hospital bill." Third, you come up with reasons to not do something which is, by your previous definitions, 'RIGHT'. You claim that it's stupid to act in this situation. I agree. The exact same applies to the chinese passerby. THERE IS A DAMN GOOD CHANCE THIS IS/WILL TURN INTO A SCAM. That's how bad it is there. The world's a dark fucking place. I hope to god you never see the fact that there is no concrete wrong and no concrete right. Speaking from experience, it's a painful realization. | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:37 Supamang wrote: Interesting. Im willing to bet that the same people spouting rainbows and unicorns about helping people despite the very possible very harsh consequences would also be the ones running away from someone being mugged by a bum with a 9mm pistol. Actually then, let me pose that question to you guys (Magic_Mike and SilentchiLL). If some old lady was being robbed by a masked guy with a gun, would you go help her? Its definitely the right thing to do. Yes I would, I would know that it's stupid but I would do it anyway. | ||
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
On October 19 2011 09:49 c24papa wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 19 2011 09:15 Blasterion wrote: The term "right" is extremely subjective, tell me your definition of this right of yours, I can clearly define exactly what I should be doing and that is what's in the best interest of my family, but I am eager to learn this right that you speak of Yeah, everything is relative and all that. Being so hostile against our "western morale", emotional nonesense and how "stupid ignorant euro kids and american redneck know nothing about China" does not make you any more right or wrong, so why dont you tone down your condesending BS. While I agree that your logical argument on why they are behaving as they are indeed valid, so are many other logical reasoning for doing things. Theifs stealing to provide for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Scammers scamming people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Robber robbing a grocery shop, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Hitmen making a living kiling people for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy Leaders of crime syndicates doing horrible things to others without the slightest regard for others, for their familiy, use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy. Hell while we are at it Stalin and Hitler killed millions and millions people, for their familiy (The third Reich and Sovjet in this case) use the reasoning that the are protecting and providing for their familiy By your argument these are all valid logical reasonings, which they may as well be, but even you can see a big difference from doing right from wrong and that logical reason is not what matters in some cases, especially when it comes to human lives.. Everything can be explained in some off sense of necessity for protect or providing in any crime. Doesnt make it any more right or wrong. My opinion is that they are egosentric cowards whom should look in disgust at themselves everytime they look in the mirror. Id rather look in a poor mans mirror with pride and selfworth than in a rich mans mirror knowing i have killed a baby. But as you so nicely put it, thats just me being a moral-faggot But the "egocentric cowards" will not look in disgust at themselves when they look into a mirror. They will be just fine. Best course of action is not condemning morals and pissing off people, but lobbying for changes in the system, so that making the right choice is the easy choice. It seems the outrage in China about this particular issue is the same as here, so the future will probably bring a change for the better. | ||
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