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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 23 2011 22:41 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 22:37 CCow wrote:On July 23 2011 22:36 Sfydjklm wrote: people like that shouldnt be given any legal loopholes to go free. Well, I'd bet there won't be any in this case. And I don't see how japanese "legal holes" have anything to do with this thread. wow okay i don't know how to put it any simpler, let me try an analogy, what youre saying is an equivalent of "i don't think nuclear plants that are located in a tsunami prone areas located outside of japan should be reinforced for tsunamis just because it happened in japan"
Please stop.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Oh my god, I woke up this morning, to hear the count had ballooned. 91 dead at the last reporting. I don't know what to say, I'm sick to my stomach. This is the worst possible news to wake up to, I can't believe it.
Stay strong, Norway.
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This actually makes u wonder: a) What exactly is a terrorist and b) What does the majority of the population today understand when u use the phrase 'terrorist'
These pictures man.. surreal.. absolutely surreal
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On July 23 2011 22:39 Maple Bass wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 22:33 sarge89 wrote: Can people that seem to know nothing about the norwegian society stop trying to tell us how we should act right now? Stop trying to force pro-gun and pro death-penalty upon us, we strive to be a better society, above these things! Please don't be too nationalistic. Yes, every country has something to be proud of. But if this was a US case or something that happened in China, opinions from people posting from other countries is entirely valid. Also as I mentioned earlier - there will very likely be Norwegians who disagree with your statement, and feel that after this event sentencing laws should be harsher, so you don't necessarily speak on behalf of all Norwegians. Forvaring means someone who hasn't reformed after 21 years is not released after 21 years. Forvaring means someone who has reformed after 21 years is released after 21 years. A life sentence means someone who has not reformed after 21 years is not released after 21 years. A life sentence means someone who has reformed after 21 years is not released after 21 years. Hence why I believe forvaring should be abolished and replaced with a life sentence in Norway. I believe Norway needs to reconsider their maximum sentence of 21 years. I also believe my own country, New Zealand, needs to reconsider this too. Our maximum sentence is 22 years. If something like this happened in New Zealand, I would definitely be petitioning the government to introduce a life sentence.
Stop nitpicking please.
The way these involuntary commitment programs work makes them extremely hard to get out of. If it's anything like similar systems, a team of psychologists will have to certify that he can function in society without being a danger. Just the fact that this guy is a psycho to the point where he plans to kill kids, with a bomb as a distraction, makes it so that they'll never actually let him out.
The system is obviously aimed to rehabilitate, but has more then enough options to lock someone up for life. It's just not the default position, like in so many other countries around the world.
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On July 23 2011 22:41 Ichobicho wrote: What you think about norwegian sentencing laws, has nothing to do with what this topic is about
It has everything to do with this topic - people are either grieving (the posts regarding the victims) or angry (the posts regarding the gunman).
On July 23 2011 22:42 CCow wrote: You have been repeating your same old point for like 8 posts now, getting us nowhere. The norwegian system is as it is, as said before if you want to discuss that, make another thread for that.
But I agree, I will stop posting in this thread now. Take care.
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On July 23 2011 22:41 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 22:37 CCow wrote:On July 23 2011 22:36 Sfydjklm wrote: people like that shouldnt be given any legal loopholes to go free. Well, I'd bet there won't be any in this case. And I don't see how japanese "legal holes" have anything to do with this thread. wow okay i don't know how to put it any simpler, let me try an analogy, what youre saying is an equivalent of "i don't think nuclear plants that are located in a tsunami prone areas located outside of japan should be reinforced for tsunamis just because it happened in japan"
This really is hilarious.
A decade old japanese case has NOTHING to do with this. If you think they failed in that old case, make a thread about that. This case will be dealt according to norwegian law, and there is nothing like "missing papers" or such because someone has to be transfered from one country to another.
This thread isn't about the norwegian judical system and even if it was it's still not japan. If Japan's is flawed it absolutely tells NOTHING about the norwegian.
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Oh god.. WHY would anyone do this.. This is just indescribeable.. That video footage was the worst things I've ever seen in my life... 84 bright futures gone.. Bless Norway.
Whats really strange is that his Facebook is... surprisingly very very normal...
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On July 23 2011 19:09 Typhus wrote:Ok. I just translated the other survivor's tale going about. Teary eyed as hell right now. This is strong stuff. Hopefully i could keep the tone of post in my translation. + Show Spoiler +I've woken up. I can't sleep anymore. i'm sitting in the living room. Feeling sorrow, anger, happiness, God i dont know what. It's just too many emotions, too many thoughts. I'm scared. I react to even the smallest sound. I'll now write about what happened at Utøya. Hva my eyes saw, what i felt, what i did. the words come straight from the hear, but i will keep out the names out of respect for my friends.
We had a crisis meeting in the main building after the explosions in Oslo. Afterwards there was a meeting for the members from the Oslo-area. After the meetings many, many of us were in and around the main building. Vi took comfort in the fact that we were safe on an island. No one knew hell would break loose here as well.
I was in the main hall when panic broke loose. I heard shots. I saw him firing. Everybody started running. My first thought was: "Why are the police shooting at us? What the hell?!" I ran into the small gathering room. People were running. Screaming. I was scared. I got into one of the rooms at the back of the building. We were many there. We were all laying on the floor. we hear more shots. Got more scared. I cried. I didn't understand anything. I saw my best friend through the window and wondered if I should go out to get him in. I didn't have time. I saw the fear in his eyes. We remained on the floor for several minutes. We agreed to not let anyone else in for fear of the killer. We heard more shots and decided to jump out the window. I was the last one and though: "I'm the last on out the window. I'm gonna die now. Im sure, but it's propably allright, at least i'll know the others are safe". I threw my bag out the window. Tried climbing down, but lost my grip. I landed hard on my left side. A boy helped me up. We ran into the woods. I looked around. "Is he here? Is he shooting at me? Does he see me?" A girl had broken her ankle. Another one was badly wounded. I tried to help before i headed for the water. I took cover behind some kind of brick wall. We were many. I prayed, prayed, prayed. I hoped that God was watching. I called my mom and told her we might not meet again, but that i would do everything to survive. I could hear the fear in her voice. Shed cried. It hust. I sent my dad a text, told him i loved him. I sent a text to another loved one. We kept in contact. I sent my best friend a text. He didn't answer. We heard more shots. Crept together. Did anything we could to stay warm. So many thoughts. I was scared. My dad called. I cried and told him i loved him. He said he was on his way with my brother to receive me when i got ashore or they got to the island. So many emotions, and so many thoughts. I prayed with all my heart. Some time passed. The others called their parents. Eventually we all started texting fearing the kille would hear us. I was thinking about my sister, who was away on vacation. How would i tell here how i was? what was happening to me? I updated twitter and facebook saying i was alive and "safe" for the time being. I wrote i was waiting for the police. People were jumping into the water and started swimming. I remained still. I decided i would play dead if he came. I wouldn't run or swim. I can't describe the fear, my thoughts or my emotions.
A man came. "I'm from the police". I kept still. Some yelled that he needed to prove it. I can't remember exactly what they said, but the killer started shooting. He reloaded. Fired some more. He shot those around med. I kept still thinking "It's over. He's here. He's going to take me. I'll die." People screamed. I heard others being shot. Others jumped in the water. I kept still. Phone in hand. I lay on top of the legs of a girl. Two others were lying over my legs. I remained still. Texts were coming in. My cell rang several times. I kept playing dead I acted dead for at least an hour. I carefully turned my head, looking for suvivors. I saw bodies. I saw blood. Fear. I decided to get up. I had been lying on a dead body. Two dead bodies had been lying on me. I had a guardian angel.
I didn't know if he would come back. I didn't have the courage to look at who had called or texted me. I ran for the water. took of my sweater. It was big. I thought it would be hard to swim with it. I considered taking my cell or letting it lay. I put it in my back pocket and went in. I saw several others in the water. They had swam far. Some had gathered around some kind of floating device, it looked like an inflatable boat. Loads of boats were picking up swimmers. I swam, swam and swam towards the floating thing. i screamed. Cried. Got cold. Thought about when i would drown. It got heavier and heavier. I prayed. I kept going. My arms were spent. I kept going on my back using only my legs. I started sinking. Went back to normal swimming. For a while i thought the inflatable boat was moving away from me. I screamed. Begged them to wait for me. I must have been seeing things. I swam some hundred metesrs before i reached it. We talked some. Told each other our names, were we came from. WHen the boats went past we screamed for help, but they picked up the swimmers first. A man in a boat came to us. he threw out life vests. I got one. Got it on me. I held on to the rubber boat until the same man came back and picked us up. Everyone got aboard. He started heading for shore. After a while the small boat started taking in water. I did everything i could to get it out, using a bucket. I got tired. A girl in the boat took over. We came to shore. We got blankets. Tears were building. I cried more. A woman hugged me. It felt so good. I was crying loudly. Sobbing. A man lent me his phone. I called my dad: "I'm alive. I made it. Im safe" I hung up. Cried more. We had to walk a while. Strangers took us in their cars and drove us to Sundvolden Hotell. I ran in to look for my best friend. I couldn't see him anywhere. I saw a female friend. I cried. We hugged for a long time. It felt good. I walked aoround, looking for friends. My heart was beating hard. I was still crying. I registered at the Police. Looked through the lists. I didn't if my best friend was a live. Couldn't find his name anywhere. I was scared. Someone gave me a blanket. Took off my wet socks. I was half naked. Someone gave me a coat. I tried to get myself together. Contacted my parents again. Dad and my big brother were on the way to get me. I drank some cocoa. Sat down. Thinking. Crying. I saw more of my friends. hugged them. Cried. Someone lent me a computer. I updated facebook and twitter again that I was safe. I was at the hotel for several hours before my family came. Looking for friends. Talked to a Priest. Told him what i'd seen. It was a good conversation. A paramedic looked at my wounds. Cleaned them. Time went. I was with some of my friends. everyone was talking about the same. How we had survived. What had happened. I asked several if they'd seen my best friends. Noone had. I was scared. thought it was my fault cause we hadn't stuck together. A friend got the key to a hotelroom. We sat there watching the news. Anger, sorrow, so many emotions going through us. My dad called, they had arrived. I took the elevator down. tan out to them. Hugged my brother and my dead for a long time. I cried. My brother cried. It was a good moment. I saw someone looking like my best friend. Shouted his name. He turned. It was him. We hugged for a long time. both of us crying we asked how we'd made it. After a while i registered abain and we drove home. Some others got a lift from us. My best friend came home with us. His brother was there with his best friend. People were gathered at my house. They wouldn't leave until they knew we were okay. We talked. I drank a glass of juice. Ate a Yoghurt. Talked with my mom and my family. Called my best female friend. It was a good call. She said: "I wasn't sure i would ever get this phone call." tears were welling up. We talked for a while. Afterwards i went to bed. It was three o'clock. Mom refused to let me sleep alone, so we slept together.
Some hours have passe. Im still in shock. It still hasnt sunk in. I've seen the bodies of my friends. Several friends are still missing. I'm happy i can swim. Happy to be alive. That God was watching out for me. So many emotions, so man thoughts. I think about the all the people who have lost someone. All the people i have lost. The hell that is and was on the island. This summers most beautiful adventure turned to Norways wors nightmare. source: http://prableen.origo.no/-/bulletin/show/672218_helvete-paa-utoeya
Just read it, it's hard not to cry
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Please don't discuss Norways prison politics here. It seems to work as the statistics show that criminals that have been in jail in Norway are less likely to do something criminal after they have been released than in other countries, like USA.
ANYWAYS, LET'S NOT HAVE THIS DISCUSSION HERE, SHOW SOME RESPECT.
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On July 23 2011 22:41 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 22:37 CCow wrote:On July 23 2011 22:36 Sfydjklm wrote: people like that shouldnt be given any legal loopholes to go free. Well, I'd bet there won't be any in this case. And I don't see how japanese "legal holes" have anything to do with this thread. wow okay i don't know how to put it any simpler, let me try an analogy, what youre saying is an equivalent of "i don't think nuclear plants that are located in a tsunami prone areas located outside of japan should be reinforced for tsunamis just because it happened in japan"
Except forvaring isn't a loophole, it's part of the system by design.
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On July 23 2011 22:42 Sqq wrote: People also need to know that he can't be released into society. Ever. He would be killed as soon as he went outside the prison walls. I don't really understand how a society that "Doesn't want or need a death penalty" would remember this guy for 21 years and then kill him once he's released from prison. I'm reading a lot of mixed signals from the Norwegians in this thread...
Also, it's really sad that some maniac would do this do a bunch of kids. How can somebody do that?
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On July 23 2011 22:45 tree.hugger wrote: Oh my god, I woke up this morning, to hear the count had ballooned. 91 dead at the last reporting. I don't know what to say, I'm sick to my stomach. This is the worst possible news to wake up to, I can't believe it.
Stay strong, Norway.
Thank you
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On July 23 2011 22:45 Maple Bass wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 22:41 Ichobicho wrote: What you think about norwegian sentencing laws, has nothing to do with what this topic is about It has everything to do with this topic - people are either grieving (the posts regarding the victims) or angry (the posts regarding the gunman). .
This thread is about the events that happened in Norway Yesterday. While you are discussing Norwegian laws.
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Horrible stuff and really disturbing events. Coming from a similar society it's just awful to imagine that these things can happen and I feel for those affected by it.
I was glad to see that post about Norway remaining relatively calm about it. If speculating on the motive of such an act I have to expect that he wants to spread fear and wants a bit more ruthless society.
Anyway I don't get why this is a long discussion about forvaring. Seems like there are better things to think about than criticizing the norwegian justice system/police/whatever.
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On July 23 2011 22:46 SEA_GenesiS wrote: Oh god.. WHY would anyone do this.. This is just indescribeable.. That video footage was the worst things I've ever seen in my life... 84 bright futures gone.. Bless Norway.
Whats really strange is that his Facebook is... surprisingly very very normal...
His facebook and twitter were set up on July 17th, it is pretty likely a mirror of how he wants the world to see him. Kind of sad seeing quite some (at least german) media focusing so much on his facebook. Also, as stated before he posted links to musicvideos on his facebook. The songtitles in chronological order are:
Fireworks Out of the Sky Let It All Out Insomnia After All Big Sky Sound of Goodbye Ere the World Crumbles Hold on to Me Holding on to Nothing Freefalling
Which in retroperspective is very disturbing to read.
e: Plus his only tweet was: "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100.000 who have only interests"
>all this has also been posted earlier on in this thread.
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Is the world getting increasingly fucked up?
I used to think this was only a matter of perception, with the media over-covering everything, but then again you have this kind of event, which takes sickness to an unprecedented level.
I have a lot of respect for the way Norway seems to be handling this, and I completely agree with its judiciary system. Indeed anyone's first impulse would be to want to torture and kill this guy, but we can be better and more civilised than that.
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On July 23 2011 22:48 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 22:42 Sqq wrote: People also need to know that he can't be released into society. Ever. He would be killed as soon as he went outside the prison walls. I don't really understand how a society that "Doesn't want or need a death penalty" would remember this guy for 21 years and then kill him once he's released from prison. I'm reading a lot of mixed signals from the Norwegians in this thread... Also, it's really sad that some maniac would do this do a bunch of kids. How can somebody do that?
We as a society believe that prison is a rehabilitation center, not a parking space for criminals to rot. The problem is we have criminals in our society like others, and it would be very popular among them to get the kill on him for status inside their areas. Unlike the US, we have a totally different view on prison and guns. Its just the way we are. We look at you and we're as shocked by the way you conduct prison terms, as you are at us now.
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On July 23 2011 22:37 TheSilverfox wrote: Guys, regarding the legal system in Norway, death sentence, life time in jail etc discussion - could we please take that discussion in a separate thread please?
Personally I think it's better to have this thread about the massacre and information regarding it.
I agree, this thread really doesn't need to be derailed by people's opinions on the Norwegian justice system. My heart and prayers go out to everyone in Norway, stay strong through these tragic times.
+ Show Spoiler +However- to people whining about forvaring, in Canada we too have a similar policy with a maximum life sentence (here it is only 25 years), and we too have means of ensuring someone dangerous enough never leaves prison (in Canada called dangerous offender status). There is no chance, as far as I understood it, that Anders will ever leave prison.
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Ever so deep condolences from your southern brothers. Norwegian flags was in the flagpoles in my city today.
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Latest number is 85 people killed on the island. The Police is still searching for more...
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