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[Old] The massacre in Norway - Page 31

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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect!
Phenny
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1435 Posts
July 23 2011 12:19 GMT
#601
On July 23 2011 21:15 kekepop wrote:
guess this has been posted but..
police says that the cameraman did infact make a photo of the killers, after he had killed 7 of his 84 victims

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


I don't want be an arsehole but if a camera man can snap a shot of him that early on in his rampage I find it so devastating that the police/response team couldn't have got out there sooner

This is so damn sad
ribboo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1842 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:20:38
July 23 2011 12:19 GMT
#602
On July 23 2011 21:15 kekepop wrote:
guess this has been posted but..
police says that the cameraman did infact make a photo of the killers, after he had killed 7 of his 84 victims

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

There's another picture as well: (Not censored or anything, think twice before watching.)
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Earll
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Norway847 Posts
July 23 2011 12:20 GMT
#603
On July 23 2011 21:09 DoXa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 21:01 Aldehyde wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:59 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:57 DoXa wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:54 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:52 Ciraxis wrote:
Some questions about the motives:

First of all - Anders seems pretty normal? In regards to his political standpoint, what's so different about him? He likes Max Manus? Likes Churchill? He's in the Progress Party? Doesn't like Muslims and immigration? He's a nationalist? What I don't understand is how these seemingly moderate political perspectives eventuated into such a massacre. I am more inclined to believe he was simply a psychopath with too much faith in the radicalism of his political views.

Secondly, the news bulletin here in Australia described him as a "Christian fundamentalist. To what extent is this true? I haven't seen this anywhere, though I heard he called himself a Christian.


Not liking Muslims and immigration is a moderate viewpoint?...


In Western/Middle Europe yes. It's common to not like them. Not hate in particular, but people here are really xenophobic


I'm from the UK and if someone told me they "didn't like Muslims", I'd think they were a right-wing racist idiot.


Here in Sweden, no one would outright say that it's the Muslims they don't like. They'd say something along with "those immigrants." But they're not talking about the Polish, Serbian or other kind of white immigrants, nope, it's the Middle-Eastern ones.


This is the kind of xenophobia i'm talking about. You don't hear people say "i don't like X". But you hear about those "damn immigrants" all the time. No one will say to you: " i don't like muslims". They will tell you how immigrants destroy our society and so on

[image loading]

Man arrested carrying a knife at the Place the PM currently stays


I might be wrong but I read he was basically just carrying\having a knfife with him because he was scared\did not feel safe\whatever. So I am assuming he was one of the people in the island who is is having trouble coping with it or whatever. Could be very wrong though.
Wat
vyyye
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden3917 Posts
July 23 2011 12:21 GMT
#604
On July 23 2011 21:19 ribboo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 21:15 kekepop wrote:
guess this has been posted but..
police says that the cameraman did infact make a photo of the killers, after he had killed 7 of his 84 victims

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

There's another picture as well: (Not censored or anything, think twice before watching.)
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Is this confirmed to be the guy? I remember reading yesterday that he had a blue jumper with a police logo on it, not a police uniform.
DeSam
Profile Joined April 2010
Belgium84 Posts
July 23 2011 12:21 GMT
#605
what happend at the island?
Wrongspeedy
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1655 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:25:36
July 23 2011 12:22 GMT
#606
Does it really say e-sport on his facebook -_-'. I feel so sorry for everyone who had to suffer this mans insanity.

On July 23 2011 21:19 Phenny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 21:15 kekepop wrote:
guess this has been posted but..
police says that the cameraman did infact make a photo of the killers, after he had killed 7 of his 84 victims

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


I don't want be an arsehole but if a camera man can snap a shot of him that early on in his rampage I find it so devastating that the police/response team couldn't have got out there sooner

This is so damn sad


The camera man could actually be quite far away. And police would still be slow to respond because of the bomb (also thinking there could be more), and it takes a while to get to an island. This guy planned it out over time. No reason he shouldn't get Norway's version of a life sentence.
It is better to be a human dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied.- John Stuart Mill
Dr_Jones
Profile Joined March 2011
Norway252 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:25:56
July 23 2011 12:22 GMT
#607
I can't help but feel that the PM is doing a really good job in handling this situation.. in the interview just now he kept telling the journalists a few things:

- "Our primary concern is to help those who can still be helped and comfort those who have experienced losses."

- "I will comment on the situation as a whole, but I believe it is only right that the police, who are the ones dealing with the investigation, are the ones to inform you of their ongoing investigation as to how and why this happened."

And he kept an informative, factual and collected posture through the entire Q&A. This was also done face to face, and not behind some podium or anything...
wubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwub I love me some dubstep wubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwub
CursedRich
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom737 Posts
July 23 2011 12:23 GMT
#608
Just want to say that my sympathies are with the Norwegian people, what a tragedy, why people feel compelled to do things like this I will never know or understand, horrific.
Chill Winston......
ribboo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1842 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:25:31
July 23 2011 12:24 GMT
#609
On July 23 2011 21:21 vyyye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 21:19 ribboo wrote:
On July 23 2011 21:15 kekepop wrote:
guess this has been posted but..
police says that the cameraman did infact make a photo of the killers, after he had killed 7 of his 84 victims

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

There's another picture as well: (Not censored or anything, think twice before watching.)
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Is this confirmed to be the guy? I remember reading yesterday that he had a blue jumper with a police logo on it, not a police uniform.

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7723857

They look awfully a lot like each other. But I've got no official sources saying it's him, only forum posts and etc. someone can hopefully confirm/deny.

Well, actually, after comparing the images, it's quite obvious they were shot just a couple of seconds after each other. So yeah, it's him.
Wivyx
Profile Joined May 2009
Norway624 Posts
July 23 2011 12:24 GMT
#610
On July 23 2011 21:19 Phenny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 21:15 kekepop wrote:
guess this has been posted but..
police says that the cameraman did infact make a photo of the killers, after he had killed 7 of his 84 victims

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


I don't want be an arsehole but if a camera man can snap a shot of him that early on in his rampage I find it so devastating that the police/response team couldn't have got out there sooner

This is so damn sad


There is no telling when this photo was taken. Might've been minutes before he was arrested.
Ciraxis
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia400 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:27:55
July 23 2011 12:25 GMT
#611
EDIT: spoilered, explicit images.

Can somebody confirm if this photo:+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

matches with the video:
+ Show Spoiler +
Letitz
Profile Joined May 2011
France80 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:30:10
July 23 2011 12:27 GMT
#612
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 23 2011 20:41 Aylear wrote:
If I may, I want to briefly give some opinions on how we as a nation have handled this thus far. Some of you may have read my post in the other thread (my reply here), and this is a bit of clarification and some more of the same.

It may surprise some of you - especially if you live in the United States, where sensationalism and fear drives the news - to know that the government, the police department, and the media have all been very honest and straightforward in covering this tragedy, and that the people of Norway remain calm and composed (if a lot more sombre than usual) despite the enormity of the tragedy.

For instance, after the explosion and the early reports of the shooting on Utøya, the news simply recycled what they had previously stated: That a bomb had exploded in or near a government office building, that there was a related shooting in a political youth camp on Utøya, and that people had been killed in both of these cases. The ticker line at the bottom of the screen wasn't some quote from a news anchor or the prime minister -- it was the phone number for a hotline offered to the families of the victims.

From the first, there was no public outcry of, how did this happen, how did you let this happen, who is responsible for this travesty. There was no speculation or debate, no expert-witness criticism of foreign or domestic policy, no guesswork. In fact, when an Islamic extremist group claimed responsibility for the attack, few newspapers even deigned it worthy of mention -- the claim was either ignored completely, or there was a small notice buried under other headlines dealing with the actual facts.

At the end of the day, it seems that this was the correct approach: The entire tragedy now appears to be the work of one individual, who in fact had anti-Islamic views. Planned, yes, and executed with chilling efficiency, but to muddy the waters with sensationalist guesswork like some news channels in the UK, the US, and elsewhere did before they even had any of the facts in hand is the kind of thing that can partially obfuscate the actual events in retrospect, especially for onlookers abroad that by nature get a more peripheral glance. In that regard, I am very impressed with how the aftermath has been handled locally.

Later yesterday evening, the prime minister and the minister of justice held a press conference. It was excellently handled. The prime minister, his expression stoic, opened by saying that this abhorrent event will not bring Norway down; that we will be able to remain proud of our strong democracy, and that the open discourse and debate on every topic - no matter how controversial that topic may be - which has been a staple of our freedom of speech, will remain intact -- that we will not be cowed into silence, and that our politics should become even more open in the aftermath, as that is the correct response when faced with this kind of terror.

He also stated that the first priority over the coming days is to save lives, and to provide medical aid to the victims. Later on, there will be further statements as regards to the perpetrator, but for the moment the focus is completely on providing immediate aid.

The media questions at the press conference were of a similar nature: Who is this man, has he given a motive for his actions, what will you do in the coming days, can you clarify this one small thing. Very to the point. And, again, worth of note and admiration: When asked his opinion on the alleged claim of responsibility by the Islamic extremist group, the prime minister said simply, "These groups often claim responsibility for actions they had nothing to do with in an attempt to seem more capable than they really are." It was a great response.

All in all, I admire how the aftermath of this terrible incident was dealt with, and how open and honest the police, the government, and (most of all) the media have been in reporting this obscenity to us and the rest of the world.

---

To switch topics a bit, I've noticed that some people appear to be baffled at our justice system. I will address this briefly by taking on this composite quote:

"He deserves to fry. Norway's justice system is retarded for giving him decent living conditions for the rest of his life."

Really? Killing this human being would bring back the other human beings? Would it lessen the blow of our loss? Most Norwegians don't see it that way; we don't agree with this biblical desire for vengeance. Granted, in this particular case I'm sure some Norwegians will feel differently, but we aren't going to completely alter our justice system for just one man. Even this depraved individual will not get that dubious honour.

Our justice system is one of rehabilitation and reintroduction to society. Those individuals who are simply too damaged to ever be released (of which there are very few) are simply imprisoned for life. Bad people, yes, but still human beings. We won't publicly kill a fellow human being just because we feel like it, out of some desire for revenge. How is that any better than killing someone over an ideological viewpoint? Both are abhorrent. Both are murder.

As for us having a "retarded" justice system? While you were reading about the appallingly decent living conditions provided to our prison population and the leniency granted to our criminals, you should have also looked up some numbers, namely the per capita crime rate and the number of repeat offenders. In both cases, that number is extremely low. The justice system is working a hell of a lot better than that of most countries.

Lastly, the comment that the political youth camp equals indoctrination and likening it to Hitler-Jugend is so ignorant and insulting that I don't even want to tarnish the English language by crafting a response to it, but I'll call it out anyway in order to prevent its propagation as anything but drivel: The young men and women who suffered this living nightmare yesterday were nothing more than enthusiastic youths who were personally and voluntarily interested and engaged in politics, young men and women who take an interest in and care about how the government runs their home.

So, with all that said, how is our country failing again? Please, let us know -- we desperately need to improve our standing in the Human Development Index. Seriously, can we at least agree that this misguided socialist country of ours appears to be doing something right?

---

I'll end on a much more optimistic note. I mentioned this in my previous post as well, but it's worth repeating: Shortly after the call went out for blood donors, hospitals had to start publicly declining offers from further donors because they had already acquired more than enough of even the rarer blood types. That's how quickly Oslo responded. I think I'm more happy about that than anything else.


Bravo. Magnificent response to the trash some have been posting in this thread.

EDIT: Spoilered.
I am but mad north-north-west
Nausea
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden807 Posts
July 23 2011 12:27 GMT
#613
On July 23 2011 21:00 Ciraxis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 20:57 DoXa wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:54 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:52 Ciraxis wrote:
Some questions about the motives:

First of all - Anders seems pretty normal? In regards to his political standpoint, what's so different about him? He likes Max Manus? Likes Churchill? He's in the Progress Party? Doesn't like Muslims and immigration? He's a nationalist? What I don't understand is how these seemingly moderate political perspectives eventuated into such a massacre. I am more inclined to believe he was simply a psychopath with too much faith in the radicalism of his political views.

Secondly, the news bulletin here in Australia described him as a "Christian fundamentalist. To what extent is this true? I haven't seen this anywhere, though I heard he called himself a Christian.


Not liking Muslims and immigration is a moderate viewpoint?...


In Western/Middle Europe yes. It's common to not like them. Not hate in particular, but people here are really xenophobic


Yes, it is increasingly becoming a moderate view in Europe, due to people perceiving Islam as destroying national identity and culture. As BasedSwag wrote, it's not necessarily 'hate', but mainly dislike or perhaps fear.


Keep in mind that there is a big difference in "not liking muslims" and dislike for the problems of integrating the islam culture into western society.
Set it ablaze!
CCow
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany335 Posts
July 23 2011 12:28 GMT
#614
On July 23 2011 21:25 Ciraxis wrote:
Can somebody confirm if this photo:[image loading]
matches with the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GbPYwP9wKo&feature=player_embedded

No idea, doesn't seem so to me. I'd think all the islands coastline looks somewhat similiar if you compare to the birds-view-photos of the islands posted earlier.
Tiazi
Profile Joined February 2010
Netherlands761 Posts
July 23 2011 12:29 GMT
#615
I feel sick reading about this.

I cant watch anymore of this now.
"A brilliant yet deluded man once said, 'Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos.' Gumiho is that agent of chaos." -monk
Brundlefly
Profile Joined July 2010
Norway56 Posts
July 23 2011 12:29 GMT
#616
No, the video from the coast was after the gunman was arrested. 1st picture is of gunman.
kekepop
Profile Joined November 2010
55 Posts
July 23 2011 12:29 GMT
#617
On July 23 2011 21:24 Wivyx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 21:19 Phenny wrote:
On July 23 2011 21:15 kekepop wrote:
guess this has been posted but..
police says that the cameraman did infact make a photo of the killers, after he had killed 7 of his 84 victims

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


I don't want be an arsehole but if a camera man can snap a shot of him that early on in his rampage I find it so devastating that the police/response team couldn't have got out there sooner

This is so damn sad


There is no telling when this photo was taken. Might've been minutes before he was arrested.



Hmm

the first tweets and rumours about a shooting at Utøya occured at about 17.30?
The cameraman said they had to go back to refuell at 18.39. When they turned around they saw the specialpolice entering the island. But yes, no telling when this pic was taken
ComeWithMe_
Profile Joined May 2011
Romania31 Posts
July 23 2011 12:29 GMT
#618
this is just sad...why nobody was around to stop him when the first bullets where shot ?
Herb is the healing of a nation, alcohol is the destruction
Ciraxis
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia400 Posts
July 23 2011 12:30 GMT
#619
On July 23 2011 21:29 Brundlefly wrote:
No, the video from the coast was after the gunman was arrested. 1st picture is of gunman.


I was stating that with reference to the geographical location. As in, is it located in the same place? Are the images of the same place?
Guybrush
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
Spain4744 Posts
July 23 2011 12:30 GMT
#620
On July 23 2011 20:34 Nausea wrote:
I think his motives for doing this is as following:

The politicians are for multiculturalism, and never dares to say anything negative about the islam culture, out of fear of terror etc.

I think that he in some twisted way thought: "Ok, so then if the opposition threatens with terror they may have to chose who they are afraid of".

Ofcourse this is just speculation.



This is exactly what I was thinking when I heard he was a conservative right wing christian as well. This isn't a satanist or a muslim extremist that is alienated by the western society. This guy is as norwegian as you can get. He's probably a person feeling his rights such as freedom of expression are threatened by Islamists (cartoon controversy, Muhammed drawings etc.) and angry at the general attitude among top politicians concerning this. It's almost as if he's saying "If I can't use my freedom of expression I will not threaten to kill people I will actually kill them". Except he never said that so it's just speculation of course.

Also I noticed he liked Dogville on his profile, which is also one of my own favorite films because it raises questions about ethics and morality. If you have seen the film you may draw parallels to his mindset when he's planned his horrible actions.+ Show Spoiler +
He feels violated and oppressed like Kidmans character and finally decides enough is enough. "Revenge" so to speak. Or making a comment about enforcement of death penalty by performing numerous disgusting acts.


The image with the kid begging for his life was horrifying. And it adds even more absurdity and a chilling feeling that the gunman is wearing that police uniform. The coldness and systematical presicion of the killer is one of the things that makes this event so special. This isnt a suicide bomber or a person shooting a few people which is over in a few seconds. Those people are often deeply disturbed. However this person has pulled the trigger with killing shots 84 times and many more less devastating shots over such a long time (2 hours? WTF). AND THEY ARE KIDS. I have no words.

RIP
Live2Win is awesome. Happy new year scarabi!
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