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[Old] The massacre in Norway - Page 30

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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect!
Aldehyde
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Sweden939 Posts
July 23 2011 12:01 GMT
#581
On July 23 2011 20:59 BasedSwag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 20:57 DoXa wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:54 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:52 Ciraxis wrote:
Some questions about the motives:

First of all - Anders seems pretty normal? In regards to his political standpoint, what's so different about him? He likes Max Manus? Likes Churchill? He's in the Progress Party? Doesn't like Muslims and immigration? He's a nationalist? What I don't understand is how these seemingly moderate political perspectives eventuated into such a massacre. I am more inclined to believe he was simply a psychopath with too much faith in the radicalism of his political views.

Secondly, the news bulletin here in Australia described him as a "Christian fundamentalist. To what extent is this true? I haven't seen this anywhere, though I heard he called himself a Christian.


Not liking Muslims and immigration is a moderate viewpoint?...


In Western/Middle Europe yes. It's common to not like them. Not hate in particular, but people here are really xenophobic


I'm from the UK and if someone told me they "didn't like Muslims", I'd think they were a right-wing racist idiot.


Here in Sweden, no one would outright say that it's the Muslims they don't like. They'd say something along with "those immigrants." But they're not talking about the Polish, Serbian or other kind of white immigrants, nope, it's the Middle-Eastern ones.
sarge89
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway147 Posts
July 23 2011 12:02 GMT
#582
On July 23 2011 20:58 Aldehyde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 20:48 Mawi wrote:
Did he build the bomb @ the building or "Transported" it there can't seem to find any info about that

And boy i was shocked when he was "white" Saw lots of pictures at the island of dead people was not pleasant ruined my day.

R.I.P to the fallen


Makes me sad that people really think that the only people capable of doing these things must be those damn arabs. To get "shocked" just because the guy is white is just sad on so many levels.

Was kinda relieved when they told us he wasn't a islamist extremist, so we don't get even more distance between the ethnicities here in norway. Glad to see all those "damn these arabs"-posts proven wrong. Thoughts to all those in Oslo and Utøya, waking up and seeing the deathtoll up to 90 was horrible...
super karate monkey death car
vyyye
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden3917 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:05:47
July 23 2011 12:02 GMT
#583
On July 23 2011 20:59 BasedSwag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 20:57 DoXa wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:54 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:52 Ciraxis wrote:
Some questions about the motives:

First of all - Anders seems pretty normal? In regards to his political standpoint, what's so different about him? He likes Max Manus? Likes Churchill? He's in the Progress Party? Doesn't like Muslims and immigration? He's a nationalist? What I don't understand is how these seemingly moderate political perspectives eventuated into such a massacre. I am more inclined to believe he was simply a psychopath with too much faith in the radicalism of his political views.

Secondly, the news bulletin here in Australia described him as a "Christian fundamentalist. To what extent is this true? I haven't seen this anywhere, though I heard he called himself a Christian.


Not liking Muslims and immigration is a moderate viewpoint?...


In Western/Middle Europe yes. It's common to not like them. Not hate in particular, but people here are really xenophobic


I'm from the UK and if someone told me they "didn't like Muslims", I'd think they were a right-wing racist idiot.

Same for a lot of people in Scandinavia. But if someone says "I'm a neo Nazi" people almost automatically assume they are insane and/or violent, while being anti immigration will make some people think he's an idiot and others will "see his point of view". Whatever the case being anti immigration isn't being radical anymore.

I hear people bring up anti immigration in conversations all the time, and shit like "So was his name Mohammed?" after crime X was committed isn't uncommon.
While a lot will strongly disagree with anti immigration (which as someone mentioned means anti Arabs for the most part) views it won't paint anyone as violent, insane or whatever. It's nothing like neo Nazism 20 years ago.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
July 23 2011 12:02 GMT
#584
It's a fucking travesty, my thoughts go out to all Norwegians. Hope the asshole rots in a really small cell for the rest of his pathetic life.
Maple Bass
Profile Joined July 2011
22 Posts
July 23 2011 12:04 GMT
#585
On July 23 2011 20:41 Aylear wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
If I may, I want to briefly give some opinions on how we as a nation have handled this thus far. Some of you may have read my post in the other thread (my reply here), and this is a bit of clarification and some more of the same.

It may surprise some of you - especially if you live in the United States, where sensationalism and fear drives the news - to know that the government, the police department, and the media have all been very honest and straightforward in covering this tragedy, and that the people of Norway remain calm and composed (if a lot more sombre than usual) despite the enormity of the tragedy.

For instance, after the explosion and the early reports of the shooting on Utøya, the news simply recycled what they had previously stated: That a bomb had exploded in or near a government office building, that there was a related shooting in a political youth camp on Utøya, and that people had been killed in both of these cases. The ticker line at the bottom of the screen wasn't some quote from a news anchor or the prime minister -- it was the phone number for a hotline offered to the families of the victims.

From the first, there was no public outcry of, how did this happen, how did you let this happen, who is responsible for this travesty. There was no speculation or debate, no expert-witness criticism of foreign or domestic policy, no guesswork. In fact, when an Islamic extremist group claimed responsibility for the attack, few newspapers even deigned it worthy of mention -- the claim was either ignored completely, or there was a small notice buried under other headlines dealing with the actual facts.

At the end of the day, it seems that this was the correct approach: The entire tragedy now appears to be the work of one individual, who in fact had anti-Islamic views. Planned, yes, and executed with chilling efficiency, but to muddy the waters with sensationalist guesswork like some news channels in the UK, the US, and elsewhere did before they even had any of the facts in hand is the kind of thing that can partially obfuscate the actual events in retrospect, especially for onlookers abroad that by nature get a more peripheral glance. In that regard, I am very impressed with how the aftermath has been handled locally.

Later yesterday evening, the prime minister and the minister of justice held a press conference. It was excellently handled. The prime minister, his expression stoic, opened by saying that this abhorrent event will not bring Norway down; that we will be able to remain proud of our strong democracy, and that the open discourse and debate on every topic - no matter how controversial that topic may be - which has been a staple of our freedom of speech, will remain intact -- that we will not be cowed into silence, and that our politics should become even more open in the aftermath, as that is the correct response when faced with this kind of terror.

He also stated that the first priority over the coming days is to save lives, and to provide medical aid to the victims. Later on, there will be further statements as regards to the perpetrator, but for the moment the focus is completely on providing immediate aid.

The media questions at the press conference were of a similar nature: Who is this man, has he given a motive for his actions, what will you do in the coming days, can you clarify this one small thing. Very to the point. And, again, worth of note and admiration: When asked his opinion on the alleged claim of responsibility by the Islamic extremist group, the prime minister said simply, "These groups often claim responsibility for actions they had nothing to do with in an attempt to seem more capable than they really are." It was a great response.

All in all, I admire how the aftermath of this terrible incident was dealt with, and how open and honest the police, the government, and (most of all) the media have been in reporting this obscenity to us and the rest of the world.

---

To switch topics a bit, I've noticed that some people appear to be baffled at our justice system. I will address this briefly by taking on this composite quote:

"He deserves to fry. Norway's justice system is retarded for giving him decent living conditions for the rest of his life."

Really? Killing this human being would bring back the other human beings? Would it lessen the blow of our loss? Most Norwegians don't see it that way; we don't agree with this biblical desire for vengeance. Granted, in this particular case I'm sure some Norwegians will feel differently, but we aren't going to completely alter our justice system for just one man. Even this depraved individual will not get that dubious honour.

Our justice system is one of rehabilitation and reintroduction to society. Those individuals who are simply too damaged to ever be released (of which there are very few) are simply imprisoned for life. Bad people, yes, but still human beings. We won't publicly kill a fellow human being just because we feel like it, out of some desire for revenge. How is that any better than killing someone over an ideological viewpoint? Both are abhorrent. Both are murder.

As for us having a "retarded" justice system? While you were reading about the appallingly decent living conditions provided to our prison population and the leniency granted to our criminals, you should have also looked up some numbers, namely the per capita crime rate and the number of repeat offenders. In both cases, that number is extremely low. The justice system is working a hell of a lot better than that of most countries.

Lastly, the comment that the political youth camp equals indoctrination and likening it to Hitler-Jugend is so ignorant and insulting that I don't even want to tarnish the English language by crafting a response to it, but I'll call it out anyway in order to prevent its propagation as anything but drivel: The young men and women who suffered this living nightmare yesterday were nothing more than enthusiastic youths who were personally and voluntarily interested and engaged in politics, young men and women who take an interest in and care about how the government runs their home.

So, with all that said, how is our country failing again? Please, let us know -- we desperately need to improve our standing in the Human Development Index. Seriously, can we at least agree that this misguided socialist country of ours appears to be doing something right?


---

I'll end on a much more optimistic note. I mentioned this in my previous post as well, but it's worth repeating: Shortly after the call went out for blood donors, hospitals had to start publicly declining offers from further donors because they had already acquired more than enough of even the rarer blood types. That's how quickly Oslo responded. I think I'm more happy about that than anything else.


Sorry, whilst I appreciate you taking the time to write this post I'd just like to mention that a large factor in Norway being at the top of the HDI is because of their natural resources (such as oil) contributing to a good economy. Whilst I lean towards liberal policies myself I don't feel that it is appropriate to explicitly conclude whether or not your criminal justice system is more right or wrong than any other country's at this stage. What I do respect, however, is what you're saying about your media trying to stick with the facts at this stage. No doubt questions and debate will rage on in the following days and I believe that like schools in the US after Columbine, security presence will be increased at future events.
CCow
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:06:03
July 23 2011 12:05 GMT
#586
http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42341
Live Interview with PM.

If there are any english sites translating, link would be great.
OrchidThief
Profile Joined April 2011
Denmark2298 Posts
July 23 2011 12:06 GMT
#587
I feel like posting just to say how aweful the whole thing is. Why some people feel it necessary to take someones life, just because they disagree with them in some way is deeply disturbing. There is no rationalising senseless killing like this.
SolHeiM
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden1264 Posts
July 23 2011 12:06 GMT
#588
On July 23 2011 21:05 CCow wrote:
http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42341
Live Interview with PM.

If there are any english sites translating, link would be great.


http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

AlJazeera has a live translator right now.
Ichobicho
Profile Joined July 2010
Norway79 Posts
July 23 2011 12:07 GMT
#589
On July 23 2011 21:04 Maple Bass wrote:
Sorry, whilst I appreciate you taking the time to write this post I'd just like to mention that a large factor in Norway being at the top of the HDI is because of their natural resources (such as oil) contributing to a good economy.

Actually if your gonne go there, it's more about how this economy is spent (health care, education etc.) not just cause it "brings a lot of money in".

If you think Norways economy is the main reason we're one top of the HDI you are wrong. it is one of several reasons, like our good health care.
DoXa
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Switzerland1448 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:11:40
July 23 2011 12:09 GMT
#590
On July 23 2011 21:01 Aldehyde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 20:59 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:57 DoXa wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:54 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:52 Ciraxis wrote:
Some questions about the motives:

First of all - Anders seems pretty normal? In regards to his political standpoint, what's so different about him? He likes Max Manus? Likes Churchill? He's in the Progress Party? Doesn't like Muslims and immigration? He's a nationalist? What I don't understand is how these seemingly moderate political perspectives eventuated into such a massacre. I am more inclined to believe he was simply a psychopath with too much faith in the radicalism of his political views.

Secondly, the news bulletin here in Australia described him as a "Christian fundamentalist. To what extent is this true? I haven't seen this anywhere, though I heard he called himself a Christian.


Not liking Muslims and immigration is a moderate viewpoint?...


In Western/Middle Europe yes. It's common to not like them. Not hate in particular, but people here are really xenophobic


I'm from the UK and if someone told me they "didn't like Muslims", I'd think they were a right-wing racist idiot.


Here in Sweden, no one would outright say that it's the Muslims they don't like. They'd say something along with "those immigrants." But they're not talking about the Polish, Serbian or other kind of white immigrants, nope, it's the Middle-Eastern ones.


This is the kind of xenophobia i'm talking about. You don't hear people say "i don't like X". But you hear about those "damn immigrants" all the time. No one will say to you: " i don't like muslims". They will tell you how immigrants destroy our society and so on

[image loading]

Man arrested carrying a knife at the Place the PM currently stays
zul
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany5427 Posts
July 23 2011 12:11 GMT
#591
I was and still am shocked about what happend in norway. my condolences to all the families and friends!
keep it deep! @zulison
trNimitz
Profile Joined October 2010
204 Posts
July 23 2011 12:13 GMT
#592
Always wondered how it could be that such psycho's who do that type of shit in schools never really get that many people. Him managing to get 84 people all by himself is fucking amazing (in a bad way obviously). Guess the terrain makes all the difference (flat and enclosed island would be theoretically much easier to hit than a school building i think).


Really sorry for you skandinavians, afaik you're countries and people are absolutely awesome. :/
CCow
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:14:08
July 23 2011 12:13 GMT
#593
On July 23 2011 21:09 DoXa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 21:01 Aldehyde wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:59 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:57 DoXa wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:54 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:52 Ciraxis wrote:
Some questions about the motives:

First of all - Anders seems pretty normal? In regards to his political standpoint, what's so different about him? He likes Max Manus? Likes Churchill? He's in the Progress Party? Doesn't like Muslims and immigration? He's a nationalist? What I don't understand is how these seemingly moderate political perspectives eventuated into such a massacre. I am more inclined to believe he was simply a psychopath with too much faith in the radicalism of his political views.

Secondly, the news bulletin here in Australia described him as a "Christian fundamentalist. To what extent is this true? I haven't seen this anywhere, though I heard he called himself a Christian.


Not liking Muslims and immigration is a moderate viewpoint?...


In Western/Middle Europe yes. It's common to not like them. Not hate in particular, but people here are really xenophobic


I'm from the UK and if someone told me they "didn't like Muslims", I'd think they were a right-wing racist idiot.


Here in Sweden, no one would outright say that it's the Muslims they don't like. They'd say something along with "those immigrants." But they're not talking about the Polish, Serbian or other kind of white immigrants, nope, it's the Middle-Eastern ones.


This is the kind of xenophobia i'm talking about. You don't hear people say "i don't like X". But you hear about those "damn immigrants" all the time. No one will say to you: " i don't like muslims". They will tell you how immigrants destroy our society and so on


Whatsoever, the supect has more than those "moderate" views. By any european standarts.
His views are extreme in every aspect, don't think there is a point in arguing this...
So, I don't think it matters if or where in europe it can be seen as "moderate" to "not like muslims" in this context.
Maenander
Profile Joined November 2002
Germany4926 Posts
July 23 2011 12:13 GMT
#594
On July 23 2011 21:02 vyyye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 20:59 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:57 DoXa wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:54 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:52 Ciraxis wrote:
Some questions about the motives:

First of all - Anders seems pretty normal? In regards to his political standpoint, what's so different about him? He likes Max Manus? Likes Churchill? He's in the Progress Party? Doesn't like Muslims and immigration? He's a nationalist? What I don't understand is how these seemingly moderate political perspectives eventuated into such a massacre. I am more inclined to believe he was simply a psychopath with too much faith in the radicalism of his political views.

Secondly, the news bulletin here in Australia described him as a "Christian fundamentalist. To what extent is this true? I haven't seen this anywhere, though I heard he called himself a Christian.


Not liking Muslims and immigration is a moderate viewpoint?...


In Western/Middle Europe yes. It's common to not like them. Not hate in particular, but people here are really xenophobic


I'm from the UK and if someone told me they "didn't like Muslims", I'd think they were a right-wing racist idiot.

Same for a lot of people in Scandinavia. But if someone says "I'm a neo Nazi" people almost automatically assume they are insane and/or violent, while being anti immigration will make some people think he's an idiot and others will "see his point of view". Whatever the case being anti immigration isn't being radical anymore.

I hear people bring up anti immigration in conversations all the time, and shit like "So was his name Mohammed?" after crime X was committed isn't uncommon.
While a lot will strongly disagree with anti immigration (which as someone mentioned means anti Arabs for the most part) views it won't paint anyone as violent, insane or whatever. It's nothing like neo Nazism 20 years ago.

Anti-immigration is too general a term.
There is a difference between proposing a stricter control of immigration (every state in the world does control immigration), and being racist towards immigrants.
kekepop
Profile Joined November 2010
55 Posts
July 23 2011 12:15 GMT
#595
guess this has been posted but..
police says that the cameraman did infact make a photo of the killers, after he had killed 7 of his 84 victims

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
.Enigma.
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden1461 Posts
July 23 2011 12:17 GMT
#596
What the hell?!

I wake up and I see that over 80 people are dead?! :S Oh man...
"Jupiters c*ck!" - Quintus Lentulus Batiatus
eohs
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States677 Posts
July 23 2011 12:18 GMT
#597
My thoughts and prayers are with Norway sad day sad fucking day.
WELCOME TO THE PARTY
vyyye
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden3917 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:19:25
July 23 2011 12:18 GMT
#598
On July 23 2011 21:13 Maenander wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 21:02 vyyye wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:59 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:57 DoXa wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:54 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:52 Ciraxis wrote:
Some questions about the motives:

First of all - Anders seems pretty normal? In regards to his political standpoint, what's so different about him? He likes Max Manus? Likes Churchill? He's in the Progress Party? Doesn't like Muslims and immigration? He's a nationalist? What I don't understand is how these seemingly moderate political perspectives eventuated into such a massacre. I am more inclined to believe he was simply a psychopath with too much faith in the radicalism of his political views.

Secondly, the news bulletin here in Australia described him as a "Christian fundamentalist. To what extent is this true? I haven't seen this anywhere, though I heard he called himself a Christian.


Not liking Muslims and immigration is a moderate viewpoint?...


In Western/Middle Europe yes. It's common to not like them. Not hate in particular, but people here are really xenophobic


I'm from the UK and if someone told me they "didn't like Muslims", I'd think they were a right-wing racist idiot.

Same for a lot of people in Scandinavia. But if someone says "I'm a neo Nazi" people almost automatically assume they are insane and/or violent, while being anti immigration will make some people think he's an idiot and others will "see his point of view". Whatever the case being anti immigration isn't being radical anymore.

I hear people bring up anti immigration in conversations all the time, and shit like "So was his name Mohammed?" after crime X was committed isn't uncommon.
While a lot will strongly disagree with anti immigration (which as someone mentioned means anti Arabs for the most part) views it won't paint anyone as violent, insane or whatever. It's nothing like neo Nazism 20 years ago.

Anti-immigration is too general a term.
There is a difference between proposing a stricter control of immigration (every state in the world does control immigration), and being racist towards immigrants.

I don't disagree, it's just the term both straight out racists/extreme right wings and the ones who actually have issues with the immigration policies use. Either way you're hardly regarded as an extremist nutter if you want X and Y to leave the country.

Just on Al Jazeera, 28 wounded in hospitals of which 20 are in critical condition. Hope they can be saved.
Brundlefly
Profile Joined July 2010
Norway56 Posts
July 23 2011 12:19 GMT
#599
http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/07/23/nyheter/terror/innenriks/utoya/17426381/

(still) pixelated picture of the guy who was arrested at the press conference today.

His facebook, twitter, blog in 3.... 2....
dangerjoe
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Denmark1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-23 12:21:14
July 23 2011 12:19 GMT
#600
On July 23 2011 21:09 DoXa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2011 21:01 Aldehyde wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:59 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:57 DoXa wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:54 BasedSwag wrote:
On July 23 2011 20:52 Ciraxis wrote:
Some questions about the motives:

First of all - Anders seems pretty normal? In regards to his political standpoint, what's so different about him? He likes Max Manus? Likes Churchill? He's in the Progress Party? Doesn't like Muslims and immigration? He's a nationalist? What I don't understand is how these seemingly moderate political perspectives eventuated into such a massacre. I am more inclined to believe he was simply a psychopath with too much faith in the radicalism of his political views.

Secondly, the news bulletin here in Australia described him as a "Christian fundamentalist. To what extent is this true? I haven't seen this anywhere, though I heard he called himself a Christian.


Not liking Muslims and immigration is a moderate viewpoint?...


In Western/Middle Europe yes. It's common to not like them. Not hate in particular, but people here are really xenophobic


I'm from the UK and if someone told me they "didn't like Muslims", I'd think they were a right-wing racist idiot.


Here in Sweden, no one would outright say that it's the Muslims they don't like. They'd say something along with "those immigrants." But they're not talking about the Polish, Serbian or other kind of white immigrants, nope, it's the Middle-Eastern ones.


This is the kind of xenophobia i'm talking about. You don't hear people say "i don't like X". But you hear about those "damn immigrants" all the time. No one will say to you: " i don't like muslims". They will tell you how immigrants destroy our society and so on

[image loading]

Man arrested carrying a knife at the Place the PM currently stays


The man arrested seems to claim that he is from AUF, the youth labour party. He told the press he had a knife on him. He is supposed to be one of the kids from Utøya.

Edit: He also told he felt unsafe, thats why he had a knife.
Ask Beavis, I get nothing Butt-head
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