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There are both cultural and physical reasons for why there are so extremely few women in esports or gaming.
The culture part is the notion that young women must dress in a certain way, behave in a certain way and paint their face so that they look like completely different people. Women are also more scrutinized than men for not upholding these norms. Beeing seen as a dork is more devastating to a woman than to a man because the woman has these ridiculous standards put upon her by pop culture and juvenile people. Only the strong willed independent women will even consider competing in computer games.
I know quite a few women that at the age of 10-12 loved playing video games. But almost none of them actually play them now. When I ask why I get the answer that during the teen years it wasn't acceptable to play computer games as a girl. As the teen years are so formative to what our interests are I think that this might be the biggest reason for why we dont see many women in esports.
The physical part is obviously the difference in hormone levels and the evolutionary incentive to compete. Males have allways competed over land, food (now money) and women vs other men. This strong incentive makes it obvious that men have developed a big will to compete. Since men have had the physical dominance over women for a long long time it has fallen upon them to compete over these things.
With women the main competition has been to attract men. But bear in mind that this competition has also existed for a long time. In our modern society when women are equal to men in terms of right and independence I think that instinct can be used to compete over whatever a woman wants to compete over. From an evolutionary standpoint it wouldn't be too far fetched to see more women develope a more competetive drive because of how they now exist in society. Obviously from an evolutionary perspective this would take a very long time though. But that doesn't discredit the fact that competition allready exist in female social groups to a high level.
Lets face it. You do need a strong drive to compete if you're gonna be sucessful in competetive gaming. You will never become a pro gamer unless you have this drive. You need a big drive to win and be the best. But since women obviously have a competetive mindset to some things in life I believe that the cultural obstacle is the huge thing that doesn't allow women in esports.
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first reply pretty much nailed the thread ;o
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On July 15 2011 13:20 tbrown47 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 13:00 NeverGG wrote:On July 15 2011 12:45 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 15 2011 11:54 NeverGG wrote:
(Before people tear me a new one for giving my opinion please temember that I'm allowed to have one in the same way that you are allowed to have yours.)
I got my ass handed to me, called a ton of names etc for saying that I felt as though KellyMilkies photoshoot wasn't beneficial to the image of women in esports as more than sex objects. At the time I had to wonder if the reaction would have been the same if I myself was attractive. I got called judgemental, narrow-minded and prudish just because I couldn't fathom why anyone wanting respect/to be judged upon something deeper than their aesthetic values would do a shoot like that. Perhaps Kelly had other objectives in mind, but since I don't know her personally and could only go by this article/her photos I don't know/care what her motivations were.
It has been more of an uphill struggle for me to gain respect/get my work out there in certain respects. I've not even got a fanclub despite two years of photo shoots, projects and other work for TL. I feel as though I would have one if I was as attractive as Ms. Sporrer (and probably also if I was still more active on TL.) I did get a lot of comments during my active time on TL, and made a few friends which was nice.
My worst experience actually came working with foreign esports 'journalists' a couple of years back. I found that the majority of them sucked up to the cute game booth girls at the event I was working at, and yet acted very condescendingly to me, or simply ignored me.
I even had one person whom I specifically went out of my way to stop work to meet, and whom ditched me to chat to cute Korean girls instead.
However, in the Korean scene I haven't felt that kind of negativity/lack of interest due to my lack of 'hotness.' It's probably got something to do with the language barrier as well, but I've found the Korean staff far more welcoming than some of the male foreign fans/staff I've met.
As for the issue of girls not gaming. That's simply not true. I'm an avid gamer myself (I love survival horror and RPGs), but since I'm drawn towards games that are not multiplayer my gaming experiences are largely kept to myself. I do know plenty of foreign girls who do game (in the same way as myself, or using online games/multiplayer stuff etc.)
I have found that there's a weird categorization that seems to happen with certain guys who are also into gaming/geek hobbies. Hot girls who are geeks are considered to be positive things, but unattractive girls are sometimes labeled losers/freaks for the same hobbies their 'hot' counterparts share. It'd be nice to feel as though we could be judged upon talent, motivation and achievements first instead of looks. I don't see that happening any time soon though.
Honestly, I'd love to see what would happen if a girl who isn't considered 'hot' went pro and was good at what she did. It'd definitely be a good gauge of which (male) members of TL are judging us on more than our faces/bodies. (Aka. Who is worth being friends with.) On July 10 2011 13:11 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 10 2011 10:37 NeverGG wrote:
'Reducing girls to "Wow she is smoking hot" is as bad as calling them ugly bitches.'
Being judged purely upon your physical appearance as a girl isn't exactly fun. However, (speaking from an experience here on TL and irl) getting told you're part of the ugly bitch squad is definitely worse than being told you're smoking hot. Guys who'd dismiss a girl (as a friend) purely because she isn't 'smoking hot' aren't worth knowing anyway ^_^. This is the third(?)fourth time I've seen you complain about how people see you never. Based on some far away glimpses of memories in a birthday and kitten blog, I didn't think you were that bad looking. I should say "I didn't think you were bad looking" and remove the that... but it's just the way I talk. +1 to the never looks good. God I just want to slap you. Shut up about thinking yourself unnatractive. You don't want that kind of attention. Oow. Actually, I'd like to be attractive. It beats feeling ugly all the time. However, I am not (I had this sentiment drilled into me from a young age by a lot of people), and regardless of what anyone says it does affect how guys treat me. Luckily, I'm currently friends with a few guys who can look past that issue so we can hang out and generally have a fun time related to our hobbies. you are making me sad never :[ id be friends with you i like rpgs and survival horrors edit: ps its my fucking birthday in 40 minutes
Happy Fucking Birthday 
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In regards to female only tournaments, I feel that at the small community level it's no big deal and sure it can encourage them to get involved. At the small community level you could have a Black only, Gay only, Bald only, Blonde only w/e only tournament and because of the small scale of what is generally 50-100 dollars it's not the end of the world.
What I don't agree with is having a larger scale tournament, as some of the weekly events that are popping up for female tournaments, having them as small novelty tournaments are alright but I would never want to see an MLG: Women's Division or any female only tournament with a prize pool over a couple hundred dollars. It doesn't serve any real purpose other than segregating the genders and allowing what would be mediocre players to remain semi-pro within a lesser pool of competition.
Essentially, it's a similar argument to, "Do we want Koreans in foreigner tournaments", you can hold whatever view point you want, but I believe that should sort of carry over to the view of Women's tournaments to remain consistent. If you believe that the best players should win at the end of the day regardless of all else, which I largely do, then you shouldn't really be for female only tournaments.
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On July 15 2011 13:00 SirKibbleX wrote:
Just to be clear: I think KellyMilkies was a terrible caster, a mediocre player, and quite attractive. If she wasn't 'chosen' by someone in the scene specifically for her looks/being a woman, I don't know how she got as far as she did.
That said, show us a girl who plays Starcraft as well as top male players do and we'll talk. What needs clarifying is why most women are so disinterested in competitive pursuits.
Women don't like competition in the same sense that men do. By that I mean that direct one-on-one confrontations with a clear winner and loser are not the way of the fairer sex because that person whose ass you just kicked might be the one who babysits your kids tomorrow while you are off picking berries in the woods. This is why all of the commercials on ESPN are oriented towards men, who relish competition because proving yourself superior to some other guy invariably increases your chances of getting laid later on.
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I think the disparities in gender are only some that exist within esports. The activity is also heavily white, and upper or middle class. In short, most online gamers come from a place of privlege that doesn't allow many to recognize how communities are constructed in exclusionary ways. Whether it be harassing language within games, or a culture that teaches women to not spend their time indoors online, etc is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there's a strong bias in online gaming as well as in many other wakes of life where these biases are built into structures, making the formats seem like their neutral where everyone can freely participate when in fact they're not.
More telling to me about flame wars erupting is the backlash original posters get when they try to challenge issues they find important to them that challenges dominant viewpoints like sexism, racism, homophobia, anthropocentrism, you name it. There is an immediate rush of the masses to defend the status-quo instead of recognizing that people are raising issues that can be dealt with in a productive manner in ways that would exclude other people. Instead of assuming everyone's a troll about to flame you, look for what can be gained and work to help make their viewpoints understood instead of immediately shot down... ESPECIALLY if it's a viewpoint that speaks against dominant traditions because too often they're disregarded by knee jerk reactions that ensures patriarchal systems prop up gaming communities.
ALSO - @nemo14, I'm troubled by your gender essentialism. "Women don't like competition in the same sense that men do" is inaccurate. Many women like it as much or more than some men do. You assume a static notion of male or female that is (a) an incorrect blanket assumption for everyone that is very over-simplified; and (b) entrenches the very beliefs that ensure the gaming community will continue to not be as open as it could to women... because we believe there's no reason to because women don't want it anyhow.
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On July 15 2011 14:01 sailorferret wrote:
I think the disparities in gender are only some that exist within esports. The activity is also heavily white, and upper or middle class. In short, most online gamers come from a place of privlege that doesn't allow many to recognize how communities are constructed in exclusionary ways. Whether it be harassing language within games, or a culture that teaches women to not spend their time indoors online, etc is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there's a strong bias in online gaming as well as in many other wakes of life where these biases are built into structures, making the formats seem like their neutral where everyone can freely participate when in fact they're not.
More telling to me about flame wars erupting is the backlash original posters get when they try to challenge issues they find important to them that challenges dominant viewpoints like sexism, racism, homophobia, anthropocentrism, you name it. There is an immediate rush of the masses to defend the status-quo instead of recognizing that people are raising issues that can be dealt with in a productive manner in ways that would exclude other people. Instead of assuming everyone's a troll about to flame you, look for what can be gained and work to help make their viewpoints understood instead of immediately shot down... ESPECIALLY if it's a viewpoint that speaks against dominant traditions because too often they're disregarded by knee jerk reactions that ensures patriarchal systems prop up gaming communities.
ALSO - @nemo14, I'm troubled by your gender essentialism. "Women don't like competition in the same sense that men do" is inaccurate. Many women like it as much or more than some men do. You assume a static notion of male or female that is (a) an incorrect blanket assumption for everyone that is very over-simplified; and (b) entrenches the very beliefs that ensure the gaming community will continue to not be as open as it could to women... because we believe there's no reason to because women don't want it anyhow.
When talking about a gender consisting of over 3 billion people, it's quicker and more accurate to make a statement based on the overwhelming majority trend.
If every post about females had to have a ridiculously long list of exceptions and other possibilities, it'd be retarded. Generalisations aren't "disturbing" when used on a global scale like has been used in this thread.
It'd be impolite to use the same generalisations when talking to a person on an individual or small group scale though.
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Only men can behold the eye of the tiger.
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If there were definitely a lot more female gamers in the industry, I'm sure female-only tournaments would banish. And yes, many of us are discouraged by gender discrimination in-game, so some of us usually like to hide the fact that we are females to ensure a more peaceful and mannered game. As a matter of fact, research shows 38% of gamers are females. However, I am sure the very statistics do not apply to highly competitive and strategic games such as SC2 (because of the way two genders are differently wired so we think differently..etcetc).
Honestly, I don't see a problem with a minority group (in this case, females) holding tiny tournaments for themselves. It feels good to meet someone who probably has a lot more in common with you compared to the majority of the boys on bnet. It's kind of nice to have a safe haven where you can say, "I'm a girl, you're a girl, we're all girls, I don't think there will be a problem here. I won't anticipate any crude remarks pertaining to the fact that I am a woman in this tournament." etc etc. It's more of a social thing rather than real competitive gaming. If the prize pool was a lot bigger and the audience were more serious about the these tournaments then I am sure that would be a whole different story.
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I agree with the fanclub completely. Even though I am not a Destiny fan, I was first surprised when the admins first took down Destiny's fanclub back in Jan. I think the message was don't make a fan club who hasn't done anything notable or something along those lines. It's stupid that this Lindsey (who pretty has done nothing except do a couple of interviews) is allowed to keep a fanclub. Double standard much?
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Even if women were treated equally, there wouldn't be masses of them playing SC IMO.
First, there are already fewer females in gaming in general I'm pretty sure. Second, even though this gap has been closing, the majority of females don't seem to be attracted to highly competitive games.
That being said, I do think that both the community and certain types of girls who do enter the competitive scene hurt female growth in it. The gaming community, like the host said, often gives undue attention to girls (they don't even have to be that hot tbh) and in turn, most of the girls which stay around are those which crave that type of attention.
Those who aren't obsessing over these women eventually become annoyed and simply expect every women in the gaming community is bad and only there as eye candy. Viscous cycle, since this attitude further discourages genuinely talented women from entering the community.
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Less women compared to men in a competitive environment.... you act like this not a norm.
All I have to say about this is, Danika Patrick. Hot, crappy at racing (comparatively to her peers), super popular. Women who have accomplished nothing but are attractive and popular happens in EVERY competitive environment with a decent following. This is no different.
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Women don't go to e-sports because there are no women already in e-sports to teach them, so they can only learn from men or by themselves. And men are bad at teaching and especially bad at teaching to women. Men and women have different ways of thinking (no matters what is the reason behind that, might it be genetics, education, gods or poneys), so they have different ways of learning and understanding.
That's why is good to have female gamers leagues, they can learn from each other in their own way and not through the filter of man's brain<>woman's brain translation. Also it's good that female players who are good enough get some attentions, maybe some of them will be able to teach other girls, little girls who starts playing will have someone to look upon, and maybe someday we'll see a genius girl who can compete against men, and she'll probably have a completely different style and understanding of the game.
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On July 15 2011 14:15 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 14:01 sailorferret wrote:
I think the disparities in gender are only some that exist within esports. The activity is also heavily white, and upper or middle class. In short, most online gamers come from a place of privlege that doesn't allow many to recognize how communities are constructed in exclusionary ways. Whether it be harassing language within games, or a culture that teaches women to not spend their time indoors online, etc is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there's a strong bias in online gaming as well as in many other wakes of life where these biases are built into structures, making the formats seem like their neutral where everyone can freely participate when in fact they're not.
More telling to me about flame wars erupting is the backlash original posters get when they try to challenge issues they find important to them that challenges dominant viewpoints like sexism, racism, homophobia, anthropocentrism, you name it. There is an immediate rush of the masses to defend the status-quo instead of recognizing that people are raising issues that can be dealt with in a productive manner in ways that would exclude other people. Instead of assuming everyone's a troll about to flame you, look for what can be gained and work to help make their viewpoints understood instead of immediately shot down... ESPECIALLY if it's a viewpoint that speaks against dominant traditions because too often they're disregarded by knee jerk reactions that ensures patriarchal systems prop up gaming communities.
ALSO - @nemo14, I'm troubled by your gender essentialism. "Women don't like competition in the same sense that men do" is inaccurate. Many women like it as much or more than some men do. You assume a static notion of male or female that is (a) an incorrect blanket assumption for everyone that is very over-simplified; and (b) entrenches the very beliefs that ensure the gaming community will continue to not be as open as it could to women... because we believe there's no reason to because women don't want it anyhow. When talking about a gender consisting of over 3 billion people, it's quicker and more accurate to make a statement based on the overwhelming majority trend. If every post about females had to have a ridiculously long list of exceptions and other possibilities, it'd be retarded. Generalisations aren't "disturbing" when used on a global scale like has been used in this thread. It'd be impolite to use the same generalisations when talking to a person on an individual or small group scale though.
Eleaven clarified my position quite well. Thank you!
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So many skewed misconceptions about the difference between man and woman in this thread...
Not all women scoot by in life just by being good looking, a lot of them actually achieved something also in sports. eSports is less physical than real sports so there is absolutely no reason why a woman should not be able to dominate here. eSports don't require more willpower or whatever than most other forms of sports where women are doing well.
The reason why no woman has done so yet is simply because of lack of interest and remnants of oppinion that gaming is not socially acceptable. That is my oppinion anyway and probably not a fact as so many of your posts claim to be.
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On July 15 2011 15:18 fenX wrote:
Women don't go to e-sports because there are no women already in e-sports to teach them, so they can only learn from men or by themselves. And men are bad at teaching and especially bad at teaching to women. Men and women have different ways of thinking (no matters what is the reason behind that, might it be genetics, education, gods or poneys), so they have different ways of learning and understanding.
That's why is good to have female gamers leagues, they can learn from each other in their own way and not through the filter of man's brain<>woman's brain translation. Also it's good that female players who are good enough get some attentions, maybe some of them will be able to teach other girls, little girls who starts playing will have someone to look upon, and maybe someday we'll see a genius girl who can compete against men, and she'll probably have a completely different style and understanding of the game.
This seems really dumb to me. Men aren't good at teaching, yet somehow all the males in eSports do fine learning from one another, but you qualify that with "Men are especially bad at teaching to women". Yeah man, that's why there aren't any male professors right, oh wait...
I don't believe that men are bad at teaching or especially bad at teaching women. How would female leagues lead to females teaching females better? They can still learn from each other in practice and just go compete with everyone else. This is piss poor reasoning to support female leagues in my opinion, there are so many weird transitions in there... Yeah, a girl will come up with some amazing new style and understanding by practicing with other girls, right? Little girls can't look up to girls unless they have female only leagues, right?
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I want to say that I disagree with the OP. There are very few females in e-sports because they're not interested for the most part. Simple as that. They tend not to like videogames and they tend not to like competition - so obviously it's not too interesting for many.
1- A few are genuinely interested and they're useful to the community, and sure they have to put up with BS, but I think that someone with enough of a passion to do that will manage to deal with it. I can't think of many names in SC2 specifically, but we have a few.
2- A few more are genuinely interested, but they only get known because of their gender. Good for them, but it's frustrating to see more qualified contenders being left out because they're male. + Show Spoiler +As a comparison, to be a fireman, there are weight-lifting tests - the charge to pass the test is lower for women here. People won't get less fat if a woman has to carry them through a fire, though.
3- Others are paid to look good at NASL and they couldn't care less. Collecting that paycheck, really. You can certainly find bronze players who would be willing to do it for free and would do a much better job. I don't want to sound sexist, I'm not - but it's a Starcraft event so your staff should know what Starcraft is...
4- Others are useless to the community but get a rise out of the guys. They're around FOR that. I won't give any name, but for those of you who read blogs, there's this (relatively) new forum user who's essentially here to blog about her life, post NSFW pictures of herself... It's not a SC platform for her, it's just her personal area to reach people or whatever. Instead of starting a real blog, might as well do TL and have a secure reader-base. I mean, just like any nerd forums, it's not surprising that there are many lonely guys on TL, ready to give those people all the attention they'll ever need.
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SC2 is a Strategy game. Strategy is a man's prowess. Not a woman's.
At least, in general :-)
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:01 PhiliBiRD wrote:
SC2 is a Strategy game. Strategy is a man's prowess. Not a woman's.
At least, in general :-) I Rofled.
Quite true though - ask a woman "Hey do you ever fantasise about how to run a country, building armies and thinking of military strategies?"
Answer is a definitive 'NO'
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On July 15 2011 16:04 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 16:01 PhiliBiRD wrote:
SC2 is a Strategy game. Strategy is a man's prowess. Not a woman's.
At least, in general :-) I Rofled. Quite true though - ask a woman "Hey do you ever fantasise about how to run a country, building armies and thinking of military strategies?" Answer is a definitive 'NO'
Then she files for divorce and gets half your stuff. Guess that's more of a tactic than a strategy though.
But no they're definitely capable of thinking strategically IMO. My gf doesn't even play Starcraft but she watches and is willing to talk about it. She comes to some pretty logical conclusions sometimes whereas some guys have played 500+ games and they're still stuck in bronze and don't understand why you can't open by making 3 pylons and 2 assimilators before gate. I would say that sometimes, her reasoning even adds some depth to how I play. Sometimes it's completely wrong too but the foundations are generally pretty darn good considering that she doesn't play.
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EPT
