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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
who has barely if at all done ANYTHING for our scene, is now trying to buy her way into it using her sexuality. The problem with this is that if Kelly had been percieved as more physically attractive, I'm almost certain that a lot of those negative posts wouldn't exist. Don't know about you but I thought she is damn fine. I would think she is simply making the most of her opportunities. Anyway this is all way  | ||
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Aruno
New Zealand748 Posts
On July 15 2011 11:00 SonicTitan wrote: Well, I've had this little rant stored up for a while. Ever since the KellyMilkies thing, to be honest. Let's get your main point out of the way right now: though not stated as articulately as I would like, the first few posters have it right; the main reason you do not see women at the top of the e-sports competitive scene, or any other highly specialized competitive game involving a large amount of skill, is because women are genetically predisposed to be disinterested in competition. Yeah, I said it. Some elements of gender are genetically hardwired. This isn't to say by any means that we (as men OR women) can't overcome these genetic predispositions; after all, we're rational, self-aware beings, right? If it were impossible to overcome genetic wiring, then I would have to agree with certain radical feminists who say men should pay higher taxes because a disproportionate amount of violent crime is committed by men. Bust THAT one out at your next dinner party and see how well it goes over. The point of this is that we can't really blame sexism in the scene for keeping women out of it. The more we try to tell ourselves as a society that men and women are exactly the same, the more evidence to the contrary we seem to find. Women generally have less interest in competition than men. Simple as that. That being said, is the scene sexist? God yes. I've never met a bigger group of pigs than a bunch of highly competitive men gathered together specifically for the benefit of whatever they're competing in. In some ways, it's natural. To be competitive at anything that requires the amount of skill that Starcraft (or rugby, or chess) does, one usually has to possess certain traits that make him a dominant force in social situations. The problem is that these traits, especially in YOUNG men, often manifest as borderline sociopathy. Frankly, the way men my age treat women is often pretty appalling. If women are deemed nominally attractive (I believe "hot" is the colloquial here) then they're allowed to do pretty much whatever they want (this is not a good thing, as I'll explain in a moment) as long as they do it with the understanding that they're not ACTUALLY one of the guys, they're just there for eye-candy and hopefully a fuck later. If they're not deemed attractive, they often fight an uphill battle altogether; the link between the anonymity of the internet and rampant douchebaggery is well-documented, and nowhere is it more evident than when men get together to judge a woman's physical appearance instead of her contribution to the community. That brings me to my next point, which is that women have JUST AS MUCH responsibility as men for changing the perception of the scene. Take the KellyMilkies fiasco: For those that don't know, KellyMilkies is a middling Starcraft player that did some casting for GSL a few seasons back. And that just about sums up her entire SC career. From there, she did a photo shoot in her underwear for a men's magazine and proceeded to plaster it all over the internet. When the shit hit the fan, the thread her shoot was posted in was immediately bogged down with two kinds of posts: those saying she had no business doing a photo shoot at all and those saying that those that didn't like her photo shoot were sexist - and probably gay. I'll say it right now: I was disgusted by the shoot. I never posted in that thread, because the whole thing was a cluster-fuck, but I was absolutely appalled. The problem is that 99% of her detractors were posting ad hominem insults about her physical appearance, instead of the deeper underlying issue with the shoot: this woman, who has barely if at all done ANYTHING for our scene, is now trying to buy her way into it using her sexuality. THAT, friends, is the definition of sexism, and we had every right and reason to run her out of town. The problem with this is that if Kelly had been percieved as more physically attractive, I'm almost certain that a lot of those negative posts wouldn't exist. And holy SHIT if that doesn't smack of patriarchy (a word I'm really, REALLY loathe to use, by the way) I don't know what does. So women that do jack shit for the community get a free pass, as long as they're deemed by a group of oversexed 20-somethings as "hot" enough to fuck? (Sporrer, I'm looking at you.) Women need to stop using their sexuality as an "easy-in" to what's percieved as a boys-only club. This goes for any male dominated scene (heavy metal music particularly comes to mind). Women have just as much of a responsibility to contribute to the community they want to be a part of, and if the only way they can think of to gain acceptance is to show their tits, then they shouldn't be surprised when they get treated like sex objects. I realize this ran kind of long, so let me sum it up: Sexism isn't the main reason women don't compete at high levels. Women just don't like to compete. That said, sexism does exist, and it goes BOTH ways, and BOTH sexes have a responsibility to stop it. I like posts like this. They if nothing else, it's interesting and stirring. This thread just got interesting! | ||
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SonicTitan
United States249 Posts
On July 15 2011 11:05 Probulous wrote: ^^ is why these threads don't work. Don't know about you but I thought she is damn fine. I would think she is simply making the most of her opportunities. Anyway this is all way I....I don't even know w.... Jesus, you missed the point entirely didn't you? Why am I even telling you that it doesn't matter two fucking wits what she looked like. TRYING TO BUY YOUR WAY INTO A SCENE USING YOUR SEXUALITY IS A SUREFIRE WAY TO MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE A SEX OBJECT. OP talks about gender disparity in e-sports, I addressed that. How the hell is that off-topic? | ||
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nemo14
United States425 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 15 2011 11:07 SonicTitan wrote: I....I don't even know w.... Jesus, you missed the point entirely didn't you? Why am I even telling you that it doesn't matter two fucking wits what she looked like. TRYING TO BUY YOUR WAY INTO A SCENE USE YOUR SEXUALITY IS A SUREFIRE WAY TO MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE A SEX OBJECT. OP talks about gender disparity in e-sports, I addressed that. How the hell is that off-topic? Because, as I outlined in my very first post, he wrote a misleading OP. What he is trying to discuss is whether the growth a these instant fanclubs are good for the community. He uses the Sporrer and Slayers_Eve fanclubs as examples and tries to link this to some grand gender theory. It is a bad OP and your response is worse. As for your point, I would argue she was part of the community before she took her clothes off but clearly you are not trying to have a rational discussion. Cognitive dissonance anyone? Edit: Spelling | ||
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MonkSEA
Australia1227 Posts
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Release
United States4397 Posts
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
Another thing I'd like to comment on is female only tournaments such as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230697 . These do nothing but promote the belief that women cannot compete with men in e-sports ...What? This is an entirely unwarranted assertion. First, the "promote the belief" - no, because nowhere does the tournament ever espouse that belief, the problem instead (if we were to assume that this "belief" is reality) is in the eyes of ignorant beholders who misinterpret what those tournament mean. Look, there's College only CSL's, but the existence of those tournaments do not imply that college players cannot compete with non-college pros. Second, there is obvious benefit to such tournaments that you're flatout ignoring. It's a way to gather people of a particular minority community together, it's undoubtable that people receive greater encouragement and would feel more inclined to participate if they are given a community of people who share something in common to promote that. | ||
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ZergBonjwa
Canada104 Posts
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brain_
United States812 Posts
On July 15 2011 11:00 SonicTitan wrote: Well, I've had this little rant stored up for a while. Ever since the KellyMilkies thing, to be honest. Let's get your main point out of the way right now: though not stated as articulately as I would like, the first few posters have it right; the main reason you do not see women at the top of the e-sports competitive scene, or any other highly specialized competitive game involving a large amount of skill, is because women are genetically predisposed to be disinterested in competition. Yeah, I said it. Some elements of gender are genetically hardwired. This isn't to say by any means that we (as men OR women) can't overcome these genetic predispositions; after all, we're rational, self-aware beings, right? If it were impossible to overcome genetic wiring, then I would have to agree with certain radical feminists who say men should pay higher taxes because a disproportionate amount of violent crime is committed by men. Bust THAT one out at your next dinner party and see how well it goes over. The point of this is that we can't really blame sexism in the scene for keeping women out of it. The more we try to tell ourselves as a society that men and women are exactly the same, the more evidence to the contrary we seem to find. Women generally have less interest in competition than men. Simple as that. That being said, is the scene sexist? God yes. I've never met a bigger group of pigs than a bunch of highly competitive men gathered together specifically for the benefit of whatever they're competing in. In some ways, it's natural. To be competitive at anything that requires the amount of skill that Starcraft (or rugby, or chess) does, one usually has to possess certain traits that make him a dominant force in social situations. The problem is that these traits, especially in YOUNG men, often manifest as borderline sociopathy. Frankly, the way men my age treat women is often pretty appalling. If women are deemed nominally attractive (I believe "hot" is the colloquial here) then they're allowed to do pretty much whatever they want (this is not a good thing, as I'll explain in a moment) as long as they do it with the understanding that they're not ACTUALLY one of the guys, they're just there for eye-candy and hopefully a fuck later. If they're not deemed attractive, they often fight an uphill battle altogether; the link between the anonymity of the internet and rampant douchebaggery is well-documented, and nowhere is it more evident than when men get together to judge a woman's physical appearance instead of her contribution to the community. That brings me to my next point, which is that women have JUST AS MUCH responsibility as men for changing the perception of the scene. Take the KellyMilkies fiasco: For those that don't know, KellyMilkies is a middling Starcraft player that did some casting for GSL a few seasons back. And that just about sums up her entire SC career. From there, she did a photo shoot in her underwear for a men's magazine and proceeded to plaster it all over the internet. When the shit hit the fan, the thread her shoot was posted in was immediately bogged down with two kinds of posts: those saying she had no business doing a photo shoot at all and those saying that those that didn't like her photo shoot were sexist - and probably gay. I'll say it right now: I was disgusted by the shoot. I never posted in that thread, because the whole thing was a cluster-fuck, but I was absolutely appalled. The problem is that 99% of her detractors were posting ad hominem insults about her physical appearance, instead of the deeper underlying issue with the shoot: this woman, who has barely if at all done ANYTHING for our scene, is now trying to buy her way into it using her sexuality. THAT, friends, is the definition of sexism, and we had every right and reason to run her out of town. The problem with this is that if Kelly had been percieved as more physically attractive, I'm almost certain that a lot of those negative posts wouldn't exist. And holy SHIT if that doesn't smack of patriarchy (a word I'm really, REALLY loathe to use, by the way) I don't know what does. So women that do jack shit for the community get a free pass, as long as they're deemed by a group of oversexed 20-somethings as "hot" enough to fuck? (Sporrer, I'm looking at you.) Women need to stop using their sexuality as an "easy-in" to what's percieved as a boys-only club. This goes for any male dominated scene (heavy metal music particularly comes to mind). Women have just as much of a responsibility to contribute to the community they want to be a part of, and if the only way they can think of to gain acceptance is to show their tits, then they shouldn't be surprised when they get treated like sex objects. I realize this ran kind of long, so let me sum it up: Sexism isn't the main reason women don't compete at high levels. Women just don't like to compete. That said, sexism does exist, and it goes BOTH ways, and BOTH sexes have a responsibility to stop it. This reflects my opinions precisely. To anyone who disagrees: imagine the response to Sporrer if she was ugly. | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
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moltenlead
Canada866 Posts
On July 15 2011 11:23 brain_ wrote: This reflects my opinions precisely. To anyone who disagrees: imagine the response to Sporrer if she was ugly. Yet I think that one of the main reasons she showed up at NASL was that she was pretty and she was in the field. I don't think her 0 experience with the community made NASL hire her, I think they were going for sex-appeal to bring in more crowds and act as a sort of "cheerleader". EDIT: Dumb typo. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 15 2011 10:07 Nothingtosay wrote: It is no secret that like many fields e-sports is currently a male dominated arena. While I would have a hard time believing that the vast majority of people wish for e-sports to remain this way; I believe that the actions of the community don't reflect a desire to inject more females into the culture of e-sports. Several recent events have intrigued me enough to the point that I feel that it would helpful to see what other memebers of the community feel about the matter. Please be aware that I am not personally attacking any individual in this thread especially considering the fact that they are not responsible for the actions of TL. Nothing wrong with this. Reasonable introduction, I am expecting something that shows we as a community specifically target females which pushes them away (there are plenty of examples of this). The primary events that sparked this thread where the creation of two fan clubs that personally view as extremely premature. Namely the Lindsey Sporrer fanclub and the slayers_eve fan club. IN all honesty besides being born female what have either of these people done to warrant a fan club at all? The sporrer fanclub has 53 pages in 3 days, the day9 fan club in comparison has 134 pages and has been active for over one year. And the crazy begins. Your premise is that these fanclubs were created simply because these people are females. The Linday Sporrer one was created in response to people bagging her interiews on the weekend. This actually has nothing to do with being female per se. She simply got a bad reputation and people created a thread to show her some support. I mean even if her reputation was created because she is female doesn't mean that her fanclub is somehow baseless. She has fans -> They want a fanclub -> problem? Do people not realize that the undeserved reverence and vigilant e-staring ( I use staring instead of stalking because I don't believe it has even come close to being appropriate for that term) is one of the reason why women are driven from this industry and other ones like it? You may next to warm up if you want to stretch like that. Are you saying that there are less women in ESPORTs because we have premature fanclubs? If you treat women just like anyone else I guarantee more would be willing to participate in e-sports. The reason why many girls are afraid of even letting people know that they are female online is because of all the fervent attention it will bring upon them. I'm sure that the mmo players among all ave heard the female members of their guild complaining about what happens when people on their server/realm/world w/e you call it figure out that they are female. This is true and has been discussed to death. Another thing I'd like to comment on is female only tournaments such as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230697 . These do nothing but promote the belief that women cannot compete with men in e-sports which to me seems to be nothing but utter ridiculousness. E-sports are for the most part mental activities the physical requirement is not high enough that sexual dimorphism would have any significant effect. Again, this has been discussed to death. Your belief that somehow these tournaments create a belief women cannot compete with men in ESPORTS is laughable. I would say they are simply tournaments for a specific section of the community. It is just a showing of girl power. There are not a high numbers of girl gamers, this is just a way for those that are girls to get together. There is no crusade to segregate men from this exclusive community. If you want more women in esports stop treating them differently. Women if you want to be treated equally then stop voluntarily segregating yourself with things such as female leagues and tournaments. Treating women like anyone else would simply mean ignoring the fact that they are women. By creating this thread and using the examples you have you have pointed out that you do not infact treat women the same as anyone else. Have you made this thread for other fanclubs that popped overnight? What about invitation leagues? They cater to a specific section of the community, do they deserve ridicule for segregating people? I know I am stretching the point here but how else can I make you see that you are doing exactly the thing you are railing against. Do you think things like the relatively quick fan clubs are hurting or helping the problem? This is only tangentially related to your title, I think you should reread what you have written. I think people should just ignore the fact that there are women in this community and move on to more important things. | ||
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
On July 15 2011 11:19 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Another thing I'd like to comment on is female only tournaments such as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230697 . These do nothing but promote the belief that women cannot compete with men in e-sports I couldn't disagree more, these can only help the opposite gender become more interested in the competitive seen. Imagine you are a young women in her 20's who has been playing Starcraft 2 for a while now and is looking to enter the competitive scene. She opens up the good'ol Firefox and begins scanning the list of small tournaments on TL and see's dozens of them with some up and coming online heroes. "What's this a tournament for girls only?" She asks her self. "I should sign up for that." A tournament for girls only will seem less stressful, and is a good way for female gamers to "get their feet wet" and become accustomed to the competitive seen. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
I got my ass handed to me, called a ton of names etc for saying that I felt as though KellyMilkies photoshoot wasn't beneficial to the image of women in esports as more than sex objects. At the time I had to wonder if the reaction would have been the same if I myself was attractive. I got called judgemental, narrow-minded and prudish just because I couldn't fathom why anyone wanting respect/to be judged upon something deeper than their aesthetic values would do a shoot like that. Perhaps Kelly had other objectives in mind, but since I don't know her personally and could only go by this article/her photos I don't know/care what her motivations were. It has been more of an uphill struggle for me to gain respect/get my work out there in certain respects. I've not even got a fanclub despite two years of photo shoots, projects and other work for TL. I feel as though I would have one if I was as attractive as Ms. Sporrer (and probably also if I was still more active on TL.) I did get a lot of comments during my active time on TL, and made a few friends which was nice. My worst experience actually came working with foreign esports 'journalists' a couple of years back. I found that the majority of them sucked up to the cute game booth girls at the event I was working at, and yet acted very condescendingly to me, or simply ignored me. I even had one person whom I specifically went out of my way to stop work to meet, and whom ditched me to chat to cute Korean girls instead. However, in the Korean scene I haven't felt that kind of negativity/lack of interest due to my lack of 'hotness.' It's probably got something to do with the language barrier as well, but I've found the Korean staff far more welcoming than some of the male foreign fans/staff I've met. As for the issue of girls not gaming. That's simply not true. I'm an avid gamer myself (I love survival horror and RPGs), but since I'm drawn towards games that are not multiplayer my gaming experiences are largely kept to myself. I do know plenty of foreign girls who do game (in the same way as myself, or using online games/multiplayer stuff etc.) I have found that there's a weird categorization that seems to happen with certain guys who are also into gaming/geek hobbies. Hot girls who are geeks are considered to be positive things, but unattractive girls are sometimes labeled losers/freaks for the same hobbies their 'hot' counterparts share. It'd be nice to feel as though we could be judged upon talent, motivation and achievements first instead of looks. I don't see that happening any time soon though. Honestly, I'd love to see what would happen if a girl who isn't considered 'hot' went pro and was good at what she did. It'd definitely be a good gauge of which (male) members of TL are judging us on more than our faces/bodies. (Aka. Who is worth being friends with.) | ||
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Jonas :)
United States511 Posts
So anyone that says that women aren't capable of performing at the level of men in starcraft I don't believe. | ||
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Svetz
Australia311 Posts
The problem is that 99% of her detractors were posting ad hominem insults about her physical appearance, instead of the deeper underlying issue with the shoot: this woman, who has barely if at all done ANYTHING for our scene, is now trying to buy her way into it using her sexuality. Apart from commentating pretty much every SEA tourney for the last year? | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 15 2011 11:54 NeverGG wrote: (Before people tear me a new one for giving my opinion please temember that I'm allowed to have one in the same way that you are allowed to have yours.) I got my ass handed to me, called a ton of names etc for saying that I felt as though KellyMilkies photoshoot wasn't beneficial to the image of women in esports as more than sex objects. At the time I had to wonder if the reaction would have been the same if I myself was attractive. I got called judgemental, narrow-minded and prudish just because I couldn't fathom why anyone wanting respect/to be judged upon something deeper than their aesthetic values would do a shoot like that. Perhaps Kelly had other objectives in mind, but since I don't know her personally and could only go by this article/her photos I don't know/care what her motivations were. It has been more of an uphill struggle for me to gain respect/get my work out there in certain respects. I've not even got a fanclub despite two years of photo shoots, projects and other work for TL. I feel as though I would have one if I was as attractive as Ms. Sporrer (and probably also if I was still more active on TL.) I did get a lot of comments during my active time on TL, and made a few friends which was nice. My worst experience actually came working with foreign esports 'journalists' a couple of years back. I found that the majority of them sucked up to the cute game booth girls at the event I was working at, and yet acted very condescendingly to me, or simply ignored me. However, in the Korean scene I haven't felt that kind of negativity/lack of interest due to my lack of 'hotness.' It's probably got something to do with the language barrier as well, but I've found the Korean staff far more welcoming than some of the male foreign fans/staff I've met. I even had one person whom I specifically went out of my way to stop work to meet, and whom ditched me to chat to cute Korean girls instead. As for the issue of girls not gaming. That's simply not true. I'm an avid gamer myself (I love survival horror and RPGs), but since I'm drawn towards games that are not multiplayer my gaming experiences are largely kept to myself. I do know plenty of foreign girls who do game (in the same way as myself, or using online games/multiplayer stuff etc.) I have found that there's a weird categorization that seems to happen with certain guys who are also into gaming/geek hobbies. Hot girls who are geeks are considered to be positive things, but unattractive girls are sometimes labeled losers/freaks for the same hobbies their 'hot' counterparts share. It'd be nice to feel as though we could be judged upon talent, motivation and achievements first instead of looks. I don't see that happening any time soon though. Honestly, I'd love to see what would happen if a girl who isn't considered 'hot' went pro and was good at what she did. It'd definitely be a good gauge of which (male) members of TL are judging us on more than our faces/bodies. (Aka. Who is worth being friends with.) Now where is my hug emoticon.... Pm'd Edit: I just hope that with time this community will mature. Maybe I am being overly optimistic but that is all we have. That is one of the great hopes that comes with a larger community. Hopefully it will force people to take a good look at how they treat others and change. Sponsorships, big tournies, press coverage. All these things put greater scutiny on our representatives, and hopefully this will lead to a more professional community. Fingers crossed! | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On July 15 2011 11:36 Retgery wrote: I couldn't disagree more, these can only help the opposite gender become more interested in the competitive seen. Imagine you are a young women in her 20's who has been playing Starcraft 2 for a while now and is looking to enter the competitive scene. She opens up the good'ol Firefox and begins scanning the list of small tournaments on TL and see's dozens of them with some up and coming online heroes. "What's this a tournament for girls only?" She asks her self. "I should sign up for that." A tournament for girls only will seem less stressful, and is a good way for female gamers to "get their feet wet" and become accustomed to the competitive seen. That quotation is from the OP btw, the quotation you have is misattributing it to me when I was also criticizing that statement, lol. | ||
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