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On July 17 2011 00:26 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 00:18 Magenta wrote:On July 17 2011 00:08 Eleaven wrote:
:S
Does it really matter what gender the characters are in a story? i don't care that lara croft is female, and all her male companions are blithering idiots, it's just standard western storytelling at it's cheesiest. And that's what game storyline are, cheese clichés because games are about game play, and all the good story writers are being paid more money for writing films and books.
Of course men are the norm in a military sci-fi game ;o statistically men outweight women in military roles by an absurd ratio.
Shame to hear you say you get treated badly by everyone and now can only play with a select few people, i've only seen evidence to the contrary within starcraft.. I guess maybe if you go into a chat channel with the name FEMALEGAMURRRR and type "hey guys xD i am such a nerd lol any1 want to help me??" it would give a negative reaction.. but i presume you're not being as ridiculous as that? 0_o
Anyway good luck to you!
yes it matters alot what the norms are. Maybe as a guy you dont feel that as much since there are often more guys. My point was also that they was of portraiting women are also problematic, since they are very onesided and their greates feature is not their personality or interesting history, but looks. Sure there are more males in the military. And more aliens. wait. no, no aliens. So that not really a valid point. haha no i dont, im neither 12 nor ignorant ^^ And not everyone there are obviously a lot of nice guys out there, but quite a few very loud rude ones as well. It's a twisted society however we look at it, false ideals of women in magazines for men to look at, Caricatures of women in my opinion, all the photo shopping etc. It's very bad. But at the same time female media outlets such as female targeted and staffed magazines are constantly reinforcing this principle of competing with other females based on looks. One glance at a female targeted magazine is enough to make a well adjusted person feel sick thanks to the messages they portray. "beauty is only skin deep" and yet 99% of the content of the magazine will be on skin creams, and then other 1% is "how to get more from your man in bed" Women get portrayed in a bad way in the general media that's for sure, but it's only given fuel to the fire when people like the NASL interviewer are granted so much fame just for how they look. That she was given a job is simply unjustifiable by any other measure. Relying on looks is a negative gender stereotype, but it hurts so much when it's women perpetuating it by taking off their clothes at the first sign of popularity and a couple of hundred dollars. also: Esports.
I argree. Its a circular problem that feeds itself. Girls have to be strong enough to not use their looks just to get attention if they wanna be respected and noticed more for their talents. I guys have not listen more and try to understand cus as it is not there are a lot of judgning going on.
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On July 17 2011 10:30 lizzard_warish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 23:43 Magenta wrote:
I have not read all comments here so bear with me if someone already made my point!
There are several reasons why girls dont play videogames. One is that it is often frowned at when a girl plays, like she should have better things to do.
Another is that wherever you go as a female games, alot of guys will treat you in i aweful way. I have been called so manny sexist things, people have ignored me and shut me out just cus im a girl, and that kind of attitude turns girls of and evetually we stay away from gaming communitys. Nowdays i play mostly with my only with my girlfirends. In sweden we have Team Geek Girl, a group for girls that wanna play StarCraft but dont know where to start och just have been treated badly when they tried to play multiplayer. I dont mean there have been trolls, but people how just seems to disslike girl gamers.
Next thing is that the few girls that do get attention are usually very pretty but dont always know that much about games. That feeds the idea that girls dont play videogames, they just have to be pretty. Its is for an example very sad that Kellymilkies did those fotoshoots, because now she just another girl that proves that girls just have to look good, not be good at what they do. Im not saying that Kelly is bad, just that she gets more attention from her fotos than her shoutcasting.
alos, mind you guys of TL, you can bee mighty sexist sometimes, saying this and that about "how girls are and are not". that does indeed turn girls away.
however the biggest reason is that alot of gamedesign turn girls of. Im not saying make pink games. Just avoid gamedesign that will put girls of.
Example, in the campain of Starcraft2. There are three major rolls for women. two who has some sort of realtion to the male lead. Why do women have to be justified by having a loverelation to a male? if blizzard where to feature a woman who was as much of a troll as Tychus, gamergirls would love it. Alow female characters to be more that just pretty, cus that does not give of much emotion.
Girls wanna have big guns, kill zombies and be gritty, funny and ugly. That would make the female characters belivable. Today women in games are mostly there to be pretty. i would love to she female spacemarines for and example. (not damn medics!)
I did and interview with Sam Didier, the lead art designer of StarCraft at the releaseparty of Starcraft2 and i asked him why there where so few female characters in the game. He answered that; We dont want to make females just cus they are females, the have to have a purpose. he pretty much put his finger on their problem. Women in games have to have a purpose for beeing women, whilst men just are the norm. Maybe this is a huge shock and jolt to you but: Men are the norm in the military. Women arent even allowed legally in any kind of frontline infantry role in a single military in the western world. Female spacemarine? Utterly implausible and would actually irritate me, because it would be blatant shmoozing [for a largely non existent demographic].
What world do you live in? Women are allowed in a lot of armies. You are just have not read alot about this have you?
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On July 17 2011 18:45 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
Can't read the entire thread, but if women want to be involved in e-sports, they absolutely can. The problem is, being a pro gamer is hard, and if you want to be a pro gamer you have got to earn it. If there are no women that are up to the task of playing 14 hours a day, then tough chance, you're not going to become a pro gamer. Period. Is that sexist? No, it's the complete opposite, anything but this would be sexist. The requirements are equal for both sexes, if you want to parttake you have to put in an equal amount of work. Why would we lower the bar for them? That would be sexism.
Try telling that to a team like SlayerS.
This has gone on long enough.
Question: do any of you think people like NeverGG, lilsusie or mnm had many problems within our community because of their sex?
The short answer is no.
Did they sell themselves to us based on their gender.
Once again, the answer is no.
They know how to handle themselves in a mature fashion. There is no need to play the gender card.
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It's easier for a guy to devote his life to gaming than for a girl. I'm quite certain that it's a lot easier for a guy to convince his parents (and friends etc) to spend all day playing games than it is for a girl (in general).
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On July 17 2011 20:14 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 18:45 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
Can't read the entire thread, but if women want to be involved in e-sports, they absolutely can. The problem is, being a pro gamer is hard, and if you want to be a pro gamer you have got to earn it. If there are no women that are up to the task of playing 14 hours a day, then tough chance, you're not going to become a pro gamer. Period. Is that sexist? No, it's the complete opposite, anything but this would be sexist. The requirements are equal for both sexes, if you want to parttake you have to put in an equal amount of work. Why would we lower the bar for them? That would be sexism. Try telling that to a team like SlayerS. This has gone on long enough. Question: do any of you think people like NeverGG, lilsusie or mnm had many problems within our community because of their sex? The short answer is no. Did they sell themselves to us based on their gender. Once again, the answer is no. They know how to handle themselves in a mature fashion. There is no need to play the gender card.
I dont see you point, try explaining? and no one is playing the "Gendercard".
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On July 17 2011 20:26 Magenta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 20:14 StarStruck wrote:On July 17 2011 18:45 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
Can't read the entire thread, but if women want to be involved in e-sports, they absolutely can. The problem is, being a pro gamer is hard, and if you want to be a pro gamer you have got to earn it. If there are no women that are up to the task of playing 14 hours a day, then tough chance, you're not going to become a pro gamer. Period. Is that sexist? No, it's the complete opposite, anything but this would be sexist. The requirements are equal for both sexes, if you want to parttake you have to put in an equal amount of work. Why would we lower the bar for them? That would be sexism. Try telling that to a team like SlayerS. This has gone on long enough. Question: do any of you think people like NeverGG, lilsusie or mnm had many problems within our community because of their sex? The short answer is no. Did they sell themselves to us based on their gender. Once again, the answer is no. They know how to handle themselves in a mature fashion. There is no need to play the gender card. I dont see you point, try explaining? and no one is playing the "Gendercard".
His point is that every single female in the starcraft community that is widely respected and liked, got there by doing something useful and being good at what they do. Not by saying "im a girl, here's 10 photos of me"
I think that's his point anyway, seems on the money too.
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On July 17 2011 20:14 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 18:45 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
Can't read the entire thread, but if women want to be involved in e-sports, they absolutely can. The problem is, being a pro gamer is hard, and if you want to be a pro gamer you have got to earn it. If there are no women that are up to the task of playing 14 hours a day, then tough chance, you're not going to become a pro gamer. Period. Is that sexist? No, it's the complete opposite, anything but this would be sexist. The requirements are equal for both sexes, if you want to parttake you have to put in an equal amount of work. Why would we lower the bar for them? That would be sexism. Try telling that to a team like SlayerS. This has gone on long enough. Question: do any of you think people like NeverGG, lilsusie or mnm had many problems within our community because of their sex? The short answer is no. Did they sell themselves to us based on their gender. Once again, the answer is no. They know how to handle themselves in a mature fashion. There is no need to play the gender card.
"you guys have no idea what i would do to susie.. in short, "i would destroy her"
Caplock21 2 years ago"
"shes fugly
koreankid1337 3 years ago "
"asumness
dam shes kawaii
OMFGHIPPO 3 years ago "
Those are just 3 comments, from a video with lilsusie, there are much more crude comments than that about her, and she was a fun caster to watch. (Also the majority of the comments were related to her sex rather than her being a "good commentator."
Female gamers do get the shit end of the stick in games. I've played with a lot of gals, and have gal friends who played games online, they usually pretend to be guys online, the moment they are a girl they get shit for it, and the sandwich jokes never stop.
Sorry, but this isn't as simple as a lot of people think it is, marry a female gamer, date them. Play on their accounts experience the harassment they get from people on a daily basis if they know there isn't a penis on the other end.
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I think gaming nerds might be the worst community to appear insincere to.
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You have to read between the lines. I said many for a reason. It was never a hot issue before. No pun intended.
Of course there will always be a few bad apples. Furthermore, the examples you gave are nothing more than outbursts by random juveniles. You will get those type of responses regardless of where you are. I've been around these parts for a really long time and I find it funny that this shit is only coming to the forefront now.
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On July 17 2011 21:37 StarStruck wrote:
You have to read between the lines. I said many for a reason. It was never a hot issue before. No pun intended.
Of course there will always be a few bad apples. Furthermore, the examples you gave are nothing more than outbursts by random juveniles. You will get those type of responses regardless of where you are. I've been around these parts for a really long time and I find it funny that this shit is only coming to the forefront now.
Have you seriously never played on your girlfriends account? This is quite a lot of people who act like that. Go on youtube, go check all these female gamers out, Milkies, Megumi, Cheekyduck, Lilsusie, TosSGirl(Any female gamer.)
Any female gamers at all. I'm just stating something I know from experience from other games not just SC2.
It's more the guys who are at fault in the majority not the gals, guys sometimes try to look good too, but you don't see the difference?
This has been going on for a while now.
Guy sleeps with 3 girls in a week, he's a player.
Girl sleeps with 3 guys, she's a slut.
Instead of thinking like this. It's time to change your way of thinking.
My preference is let them do whatever they want. I watch the Iron Lady tournament, I believe everything has to start somewhere, and having their own tournaments is a good way to get them started, less pressure for one, and it's a stepping stone for them to try other online tournaments.
What we as a community should do is welcome them like we do any other guy, let their numbers grow, let them be who they want to be. =/
edit: fixed typo hope I got all.
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On July 17 2011 19:55 Magenta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 00:26 Eleaven wrote:On July 17 2011 00:18 Magenta wrote:On July 17 2011 00:08 Eleaven wrote:
:S
Does it really matter what gender the characters are in a story? i don't care that lara croft is female, and all her male companions are blithering idiots, it's just standard western storytelling at it's cheesiest. And that's what game storyline are, cheese clichés because games are about game play, and all the good story writers are being paid more money for writing films and books.
Of course men are the norm in a military sci-fi game ;o statistically men outweight women in military roles by an absurd ratio.
Shame to hear you say you get treated badly by everyone and now can only play with a select few people, i've only seen evidence to the contrary within starcraft.. I guess maybe if you go into a chat channel with the name FEMALEGAMURRRR and type "hey guys xD i am such a nerd lol any1 want to help me??" it would give a negative reaction.. but i presume you're not being as ridiculous as that? 0_o
Anyway good luck to you!
yes it matters alot what the norms are. Maybe as a guy you dont feel that as much since there are often more guys. My point was also that they was of portraiting women are also problematic, since they are very onesided and their greates feature is not their personality or interesting history, but looks. Sure there are more males in the military. And more aliens. wait. no, no aliens. So that not really a valid point. haha no i dont, im neither 12 nor ignorant ^^ And not everyone there are obviously a lot of nice guys out there, but quite a few very loud rude ones as well. It's a twisted society however we look at it, false ideals of women in magazines for men to look at, Caricatures of women in my opinion, all the photo shopping etc. It's very bad. But at the same time female media outlets such as female targeted and staffed magazines are constantly reinforcing this principle of competing with other females based on looks. One glance at a female targeted magazine is enough to make a well adjusted person feel sick thanks to the messages they portray. "beauty is only skin deep" and yet 99% of the content of the magazine will be on skin creams, and then other 1% is "how to get more from your man in bed" Women get portrayed in a bad way in the general media that's for sure, but it's only given fuel to the fire when people like the NASL interviewer are granted so much fame just for how they look. That she was given a job is simply unjustifiable by any other measure. Relying on looks is a negative gender stereotype, but it hurts so much when it's women perpetuating it by taking off their clothes at the first sign of popularity and a couple of hundred dollars. also: Esports. I argree. Its a circular problem that feeds itself. Girls have to be strong enough to not use their looks just to get attention if they wanna be respected and noticed more for their talents. I guys have not listen more and try to understand cus as it is not there are a lot of judgning going on.
Sadly we live in a shallow world, but isnt there more important issues in this world to discuss?
even if there isnt, does it matter that there are girl tournaments, pretty players, cute casters, sexy interview ladies that ask questions like "zvg" ?
does it harm the fabrics of this complex male/female stereotype expectation, that is deemed absolutely necessary to live up to in order to be respected and graced with your approval?
i dunno, sounds coo-koo to me...
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On July 17 2011 21:50 GertHeart wrote:
Have you seriously never played on your girlfriends account? This is quite a lot of people who act like that. Go on youtube, go check all these female gamers out, Milkies, Megumi, Cheekyduck, Lilsusie, TosSGirl(Any female gamer.)
Any female gamers at all. I'm just stating something I know from experience from other games not just SC2.
I know exactly how this community reacts to the women I've been with. I put one of them on cam and the boys go nuts: "Show us your breasts!"; "I'd do your girlfriend!"; etc.
They laugh it off just like me. What do you expect from horny teenagers, which makes up a big part of this demographic? Many of them are only kids and it's the Internet. People will do and say anything. The rules of engagement are different.
It's more the guys who are at fault in the majority not the gals, guys sometimes try to look good too, but you don't see the difference?
Let's not play the blame game. My girlfriends embrace it and like the attention to a certain degree. When it gets over excessive they will tell those guys to stop or give me the this isn't fun anymore look, so I snip it in the butt.
Lindsey Sporre's success rests solely on her looks. Why else would she get the job over someone who is more qualified?
When someone says they are victim of their sex I cannot help but laugh because in many circumstances they embraced it, or they chose to ignore all the facts presented to them. It's not hard to pull the sexiest card and some people handle constructive criticism better than others.
The women I spoke about earlier never had to use their sex to sell themselves to this community. They did it through good contributions. I've already said this. Lindsey was unprepared and the responsibility lies on the person who contracted her.
The TL vets are used to high quality. As a result, we have very high standards and expectations from any contributor regardless of their sex. I must admit people like lilsusie, mnm and NeverGG set the bar pretty high.
You say men try to look good too. We either are or aren't. It's not any different from women. Look, if your good looking, your good looking. How you choose to embrace it is a totally different story. Our community is very open about the men we find attractive in E-Sports.
Did players like NaDa go out of his way to sell his sex appeal? No, most pros are totally oblivious to it. Once you make them aware of it they laugh it off. It's all in good fun. It's what we project on them. Here are a few outstanding cases... Bisu got signed to MBC because the manager thought he had a nice look. At the same time, Bisu was one of the top players in [Shield] along with Sea. Once again, this had nothing to do with Bisu. It was part of the manager's selection process. Then you have players like Kal who got the tuck and now we have Puma saying he'll use some of the 50k to get skin treatment for his face.
To wrap this thought up. It's a lot easier for women to get accepted into gaming circles because they are sparse. Hell, we even had a guy pretend he was a chick for years just to play with the studs of our community. All of this was well before SC2. Once again, the women I mentioned earlier never had to play this card. Instead it was a guy pretending to be a girl who did!
The biggest difference is the sparsity. How you decide to sell yourself to this community is up to you, but remember this: the TL staff, other veterans and myself don't take kindly to people who make poor contributions and lack character.
This is why people used to rag on Riku quite a bit and still do. In many cases we're unaware of the messages we're sending to others. Whether it be intentional or unintentional. More often than not it's unintentional. The only way to solve this mystery is for someone to tell you directly.
For example, I might come across as being an ass but that wasn't my initial intention.
This has been going on for a while now.
Guy sleeps with 3 girls in a week, he's a player.
Girl sleeps with 3 guys, she's a slut.
Instead of thinking like this time to change your way of thinking.
Great, now we're going into societal conventions that go far beyond the world of gaming. I'm not going to argue because I find it hocus pocus myself. I've worked in the nightlife industry for years, so I know how it works. Players aren't any different from male whores.
My preference is let them do whatever they want. I watch the Iron Lady tournament, I believe everything has to start somewhere, and having their own tournaments is a good way to get them started, less pressure for one, and it's a stepping stone for them to try other online tournaments.
Like I said before, this community has high standards and expectations. If you churn out crap, the community will pounce on you regardless of your sex.
What we as a community should do is welcome them like we do any other guy, let their numbers grow, let them be who they want to be. =/
Unfortunately, that doesn't happen as I already pointed out. The good women contributors are sparse in this community. They will continue to receive preferential treatment from the people who don't know any better regardless of what you think of their contributions. Likewise, they will have to deal with more shit. It comes with the territory of being the opposite sex on these forums. How you deal with it is another story.
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guy who sleeps with 3 girls in a week, he's a slut
morons
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I think the problem is with guy gamers also, recently 2 fan clubs for Lyndsey sporrer and slayers eve have been getting pages and pages of posts ... but for what? slayers eve has yet to do anything and lyndsey did a few interviews? i think if we give so much attention to them it only hurts in the long run because it sets the bar so low for skill level etc.
but like others i just dont think the interest in esports is there for the vast majority or girls/gamer.
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Thank you OP, these were my thoughts. More equality, less raging nerd fandom.
Edit: After going back and reading the entire thread I've realized this discussion is all over the place :O
Children aren't pets, feminism, 50 repeats of the OP, other women's sports.
I wonder if it's entirely inappropriate to say a portion of team liquid.. is a little awkward when it comes to women and it manifests in their posts or as the OP put it "e-staring"
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I honestly gave up reading at page 3. All I wanted to say is if a woman actually had the skill to win some tournaments I wouldn't give a shit about the fact she's a woman... people who think otherwise just need to get laid so hard...
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my opinion is that theres no reason for hosting videogame-related (esport) events that involve only females.
Females should feel free to sing up and play in all the competitions: starcraft 2 is fun for everyone at every level and the amount of practice and the mindset one decides to use is completely unrelated to the gender.
Again, everyone is free to host whatever even with whatever rules... just saying that we are doing E-sports here and no actual sports.
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the point of female only tourneys is to raise awareness that there are girls who do enjoy this game. It is also a way to help connect more girls to each other since it is hard to find one another. It creates a community. In addition to all this, these tournaments did start off with lower level play but now we are starting to see more and more master girls sign up. Flo, who participates and has won a few of these tourneys now competes at MLG. She probably would've never gotten noticed by a team if she didnt do these female tourneys and wouldnt have had the opportunity to play at MLG.
The female tourneys are a good thing. I mean CatZ is calling for foreigner only tourneys to help develop the foreign esports scene and the same thing applies to women. Having female tourneys, gets more girls involved. A community has developed around it and so has tighter competition.
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Well, women just don't really play videogames. It's just one of those things that evolve into being dominated by men, just like writing good (classic) literature, practicing philosophy or penis modelling.
Women in turn have nursing, cooking,gossip,fashion and a host of other things we men just don't bother getting into. Thus is life :D
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On August 14 2011 08:59 PiRate647 wrote:
Well, women just don't really play videogames. It's just one of those things that evolve into being dominated by men, just like writing good (classic) literature, practicing philosophy or penis modelling.
Women in turn have nursing, cooking,gossip,fashion and a host of other things we men just don't bother getting into. Thus is life :D
The reasons why women never had the chance to do those things (even though women did right good classic literature ever heard of Frankenstein or machinal?) is because they were oppressed by men not because they are incapable.
EDIT: except for penis modeling of course, why would you even list that one?
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EPT
