EPTGender disparity in E-sports - Page 5
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kellymilkies
Singapore1393 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:10 kellymilkies wrote: Edit: nvm. Smart call, Kelly. I read the post and let's just say the "nvm" is better than what was there prior. | ||
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Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
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kellymilkies
Singapore1393 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:15 Mordiford wrote: Smart call, Kelly. I read the post and let's just say the "nvm" is better than what was there prior. Let's just all eat rainbow cupcakes and smile at the world <3 | ||
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katzby
United States110 Posts
On July 15 2011 15:18 fenX wrote: Women don't go to e-sports because there are no women already in e-sports to teach them, so they can only learn from men or by themselves. And men are bad at teaching and especially bad at teaching to women. Men and women have different ways of thinking (no matters what is the reason behind that, might it be genetics, education, gods or poneys), so they have different ways of learning and understanding. That's why is good to have female gamers leagues, they can learn from each other in their own way and not through the filter of man's brain<>woman's brain translation. Also it's good that female players who are good enough get some attentions, maybe some of them will be able to teach other girls, little girls who starts playing will have someone to look upon, and maybe someday we'll see a genius girl who can compete against men, and she'll probably have a completely different style and understanding of the game. That's kinda dumb and insulting. I'm a girl and I can perfectly understand what my SC2 'teachers' are telling me. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:25 katzby wrote: That's kinda dumb and insulting. I'm a girl and I can perfectly understand what my SC2 'teachers' are telling me. Let's duke it out =) And he didn't mean to be insulting, men and women learn differently, it's a psychology thing. Not sure if he's right but there's truth behind what he's saying at the very least. | ||
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
Wow. So the SC2 community is so lonely/pathetic that we /cheer everytime we see a girl doing anything in esports even if she is incompetent? Awsome. Looks are a huge bonus, but not the most important thing when it comes down to it. If all you want is looks, than pay the girl to stand there holding the microphone for the person being interviewed, while the interviewer is someone actually capable of doing the job. But seriously saying "Here is some eye candy who knows nothing about the game." and people would rather have this than a person who actually knows/follows/loves the game.. is embarrassing. But its just me, but its things like this that support all of the negative stereotypes/assumptions about esports and all of its followers. Lonely quiet horny nerdy guys who have never been in a relationship, will LOVE having a beautiful female involved even if she knows nothing about the scene. Meh I am all for getting more women actually involved, but idk who people are trying to kid by saying "look this beautiful girl is interested in esports! So interested she doesnt even know the names of the 3 playable races... which is almost impossible to not know... if you have played the game even once or even had it explained to you." Forcing it, and coming off fake, is worse than not having any actual interested good looking women. BTW Leah B Jackson is awsome cause she actually knows her shit/actually is a part of the gaming community/culture. She isnt jsut a good-looking puppet like so many women are on the scene. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:16 Greentellon wrote: You can't get women as exited about eSports as men, because men and women are different. This may come as a surprise to you. Only two places think of (right now) where 100% gender neutral treatment is required are law and wages. Otherwise it's just silly to treat as men and women were the same, because they aren't. It's a really tricky balancing act though, particularly when it comes to jobs and sports, particularly eSports. As someone mentioned earlier, the weight lifting requirement for women as firemen is lower but if they ever have to carry someone out of a fire, they aren't going to shed 50 pounds from seeing that the person who has to carry them has breasts so those particular changes of requirements don't really make sense to me. In terms of regular sports, men are considered to be physically superior to their female counterparts so it's not always fair to pair the two together. In regards to eSports, particularly games like Starcraft, the question is whether males can be considered to have a mental advantage that is generally too difficult for females to overcome in which case female tournaments would be appropriate as they are for physical sports. Even as a man, I think it would be kind of unfortunate to say that we're physically superior, and also mentally superior to the point where women have to have their own avenue of competition. Obviously, there's the statement that men are more competitive than women to round out the whole category without demeaning women but competition is essentially present in everything these days so that would once again reach the same point. I just don't see a reason to segregate unless we're trying to say outright that women can't compete with us in any of these avenues. It just seems silly. As for attitude towards women, there are less of them, obviously it will be different, it goes both ways, they get more positive attention and they get more negative attention. What irks me is when they ignore one aspect and pretend they're being victimized when they are being criticized as anyone else would be. I feel it largely balances out, just don't flip your shit and get emotional and people will eventually mellow out. Also, don't act astonished when people focus on you being a female when that's what you've been utilizing to get a leg up in the scene anyways. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
Completely mixing up cause and effect, as well as different topics, just because both contain "women." | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:27 Djzapz wrote: Let's duke it out =) And he didn't mean to be insulting, men and women learn differently, it's a psychology thing. Not sure if he's right but there's truth behind what he's saying at the very least. Dude what the hell are you talking about? Who told you that men and women learn differently? This is one of the most offensive standpoints I've seen. There are many different ways to learn and none of them are exclusive to males or females. Don't make up your own facts and then say "it's a psychology thing". If you're gonna talk about differences in men and women you can talk about hormone levels and cultural differences. You can not talk about how womens brains are magically different from mens. Cause they aren't. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:37 StarBrift wrote: Dude what the hell are you talking about? Who told you that men and women learn differently? This is one of the most offensive standpoints I've seen. There are many different ways to learn and none of them are exclusive to males or females. Don't make up your own facts and then say "it's a psychology thing". If you're gonna talk about differences in men and women you can talk about hormone levels and cultural differences. You can not talk about how womens brains are magically different from mens. Cause they aren't. Didn't you hear? Men can't teach women, women can only really learn from one another, and in order to learn from one another, women need to play tournaments against each other, because the standard for tournaments is to try and coach your opponent obviously. Oh... Oh... And then, little girls will look up to you. The post that started this chain is honestly a little idiotic in my opinion. | ||
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DisneylandSC
Netherlands435 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:37 StarBrift wrote: Dude what the hell are you talking about? Who told you that men and women learn differently? This is one of the most offensive standpoints I've seen. There are many different ways to learn and none of them are exclusive to males or females. Don't make up your own facts and then say "it's a psychology thing". If you're gonna talk about differences in men and women you can talk about hormone levels and cultural differences. You can not talk about how womens brains are magically different from mens. Cause they aren't. What the hell are you talking about there are no difference between a woman's brain and a man's brain? They're not "magically different", they are different. Men have an easier time with some topics in school and women are better with other topics. Men and women process things differently. Some methods of teaching apply better to men, some methods apply better to women. Some teachers may get better results with one gender or the other. It's not stupid... And if it was offensive to you, I'm sorry, maybe you misunderstood me... there truly is nothing offensive about what I'm saying. | ||
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ampson
United States2355 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:27 MaestroSC wrote: It is embarrasing in my point of view the treatment that women (particularly good looking ones) get. Getting a job simply because of your looks, and not even being able to adequately do your job, and then getting a fan club of 53 pages in 3 days. Wow. So the SC2 community is so lonely/pathetic that we /cheer everytime we see a girl doing anything in esports even if she is incompetent? Awsome. Looks are a huge bonus, but not the most important thing when it comes down to it. If all you want is looks, than pay the girl to stand there holding the microphone for the person being interviewed, while the interviewer is someone actually capable of doing the job. But seriously saying "Here is some eye candy who knows nothing about the game." and people would rather have this than a person who actually knows/follows/loves the game.. is embarrassing. But its just me, but its things like this that support all of the negative stereotypes/assumptions about esports and all of its followers. Lonely quiet horny nerdy guys who have never been in a relationship, will LOVE having a beautiful female involved even if she knows nothing about the scene. Meh I am all for getting more women actually involved, but idk who people are trying to kid by saying "look this beautiful girl is interested in esports! So interested she doesnt even know the names of the 3 playable races... which is almost impossible to not know... if you have played the game even once or even had it explained to you." Forcing it, and coming off fake, is worse than not having any actual interested good looking women. BTW Leah B Jackson is awsome cause she actually knows her shit/actually is a part of the gaming community/culture. She isnt jsut a good-looking puppet like so many women are on the scene. This post is amazing. I want more women in eSports as well, but getting them in JUST for their looks will not help anything. They need to have at least a fundamental understanding of the game that they were hired to cover or play. What SlayerSJessica is doing is awesome, and I have high hopes for Eve, I hope she is determined enough to reach a very high level. (though people shouldnt be making a fanclub with no content till she plays, imo) But what NASL did was not awesome. I would have rather had a fat guy with acne do those interviews as long as he was in silver league or above. And if this fat guy did a good job with these interviews, I would love for him to have a fan club because of his interviewing prowess. That would at least make us not look like nerds who are desperate to see hot girls so much that it is to the point where we don't even give a crap if they know anything about our game. Anna Prosser. Leah B Jackson. Eleine Sun, Seltzer. These are 4 women who have been ACTIVE in the esports scene. Another thing they have in common is that they all lack fanclubs. Yet teamliquid feels compelled to give a model with no game knowledge a 50 page fanclub. The difference is that they are not marketed for their looks. It's sad really, when a model with no knowledge is deemed more valuable to the community than long time contributors, and it doesn't look good to the outside. | ||
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Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:30 Mordiford wrote: It's a really tricky balancing act though, particularly when it comes to jobs and sports, particularly eSports. I said wages not "jobs". By that I mean, for equal skill set, performance and time commitment in same company/work place you get the same wage regardless of gender. Of course companies and such are allowed to select the most suitable candidate regardless of what gender he is. The simple fact is that if 99% of programmers who apply to jobs (I took that number out of my hat) are men, then how can you have "gender equality" when women simply do not want to. Because we are different. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:59 Greentellon wrote: I said wages not "jobs". By that I mean, for equal skill set, performance and time commitment in same company/work place you get the same wage regardless of gender. Of course companies and such are allowed to select the most suitable candidate regardless of what gender he is. The simple fact is that if 99% of programmers who apply to jobs (I took that number out of my hat) are men, then how can you have "gender equality" when women simply do not want to. Because we are different. I'm not sure what you mean by equality in that regard, you can technically have equal opportunity for both genders even in something like programming where 99% of applicants and staff are males, it generally doesn't work out that way, but that's what "equality" implies in that sense. All applicants judged on their merit and not on their gender, unfortunately, that doesn't end up being the case. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
On July 15 2011 10:20 rogzardo wrote: Most women don't want to play starcraft. Also, the sky is blue and 2+2=4 lol why is that? i know how to get more female players...put moderators into starcraft...you can be banned for raging especially against a female. | ||
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iRaYP
Scotland66 Posts
On July 15 2011 16:30 Mordiford wrote: It's a really tricky balancing act though, particularly when it comes to jobs and sports, particularly eSports. As someone mentioned earlier, the weight lifting requirement for women as firemen is lower but if they ever have to carry someone out of a fire, they aren't going to shed 50 pounds from seeing that the person who has to carry them has breasts so those particular changes of requirements don't really make sense to me. In terms of regular sports, men are considered to be physically superior to their female counterparts so it's not always fair to pair the two together. In regards to eSports, particularly games like Starcraft, the question is whether males can be considered to have a mental advantage that is generally too difficult for females to overcome in which case female tournaments would be appropriate as they are for physical sports. Even as a man, I think it would be kind of unfortunate to say that we're physically superior, and also mentally superior to the point where women have to have their own avenue of competition. Obviously, there's the statement that men are more competitive than women to round out the whole category without demeaning women but competition is essentially present in everything these days so that would once again reach the same point. I just don't see a reason to segregate unless we're trying to say outright that women can't compete with us in any of these avenues. It just seems silly. As for attitude towards women, there are less of them, obviously it will be different, it goes both ways, they get more positive attention and they get more negative attention. What irks me is when they ignore one aspect and pretend they're being victimized when they are being criticized as anyone else would be. I feel it largely balances out, just don't flip your shit and get emotional and people will eventually mellow out. Also, don't act astonished when people focus on you being a female when that's what you've been utilizing to get a leg up in the scene anyways. This, I couldn't of said it better myself, In particular the last part. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
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