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Competition is something in a man's nature. It is natural that there are more male competitiors, because we are more suited to it. Women choose men for mating, they don't need to compete, men compete for women.. Competition just isn't their thing, just like being a fashion model and using lipsticks isn't ours.
This doesn't mean there aren't females who compete in SC2, but they are fewer in number firstly because of this, and also due to gender roles found in society.
From toys to colours, we are seperated into how we are supposed to behave/like from the moment of our birth. Therefore in that logic, video games are something "suited" to a boy, while a girl is supposed to be interested in more girly things like whatever our parents think to be. There are few who want to or who can break away from this cycle, and even fewer who are not scared of the competition aspect of Starcraft.
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On July 15 2011 17:13 Bleak wrote:
Competition is something in a man's nature. It is natural that there are more male competitiors, because we are more suited to it. Women choose men for mating, they don't need to compete, men compete for women.. Competition just isn't their thing, just like being a fashion model and using lipsticks isn't ours.
This doesn't mean there aren't females who compete in SC2, but they are fewer in number firstly because of this, and also due to gender roles found in society.
From toys to colours, we are seperated into how we are supposed to behave/like from the moment of our birth. Therefore in that logic, video games are something "suited" to a boy, while a girl is supposed to be interested in more girly things like whatever our parents think to be. There are few who want to or who can break away from this cycle, and even fewer who are not scared of the competition aspect of Starcraft.
i think women's lack in competitiveness also stems from men's astute perception that competitive women would make horrible mothers. i'm sure those who had abusive mothers can understand what it's like to have a total control freak, who threatens to abandon and abandons their family, often coming back just to be a parasite.
evolution my friend
competition fits a man's fair nature. women who are more partial to the world will be nuts if they also are to be burdened with testosterone
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On July 15 2011 17:12 IzieBoy wrote:
if there is going to be a female pro gamer, she's going to be highly publicized...it's a fact
See, that's fine but if she fails to deliver results, then people should expect her to be heavily criticized for it. If she's getting all that publicity because she's a girl, that's the positive attention right there, if she's not up to par, then it's sort of disproportionate and perpetuates the attitude towards women in the competitive scene. If you're highly publicized for pretty much nothing, then expect to be heavily criticized as well, particularly if you don't deliver results.
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Gamers, regardless of their gender, should get attention for their skills, not for their looks.
This also applies to any other kind of competitive scene.
You want to be recognized by the gamer community? Earn it.
This is no beauty contest. This is war.
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On July 15 2011 11:02 Trajan98 wrote:
Women can compete equally in things such as politics but in gaming and sports they are at a disadvantage. Anything that involves reaction times, physical speed and strength men will excel at over women because men have evolved over millions of years as hunters.
Perhaps only generally though.
I mean, everyone is different.
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Canada11350 Posts
Hm. The whole too much adoring attention = driving women from esports, I'm not sure about. Certainly I agree that both the fanclub pages are premature. I think most would agree with that. But does that equal less women in esports? Lindsey at least seemed to think it cute that there was already a fanclub... so maybe?
A far bigger issue is that everytime a female contributes to esports they get torn apart because they aren't a goddess of starcraft: A woman with the macro of Flash, the multi-tasking of Bisu, the knowledge of Artosis, the body of Nada, the looks of Tasteless, the voice of Day9, and the bm of Idra. Instead they are interested in promoting Starcraft (Anna) or commentate (lil-Susie, kellymilkies) or play and commentate (CheekyDuck?- Starcraft art for sure) or do interviews (several names), etc, etc. Aka small contributions however they can, to the best of their ability. And with very, very few exceptions I can think of, most threads about them stir up a lot of crap- especially those 'evil' female-only tournaments. Oh the villainy!
So it's probably a bit of both- way too much adoration on the one side and absolute derision and even open hostility for anything but a goddess of Starcraft (when we have a very, very small population of talent to draw upon from the other gender.) How dare a female dare darken the halls of our elite esport without arriving a fully-formed Starcraft superstar! It could be both, but my money's on the hostility.
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I don't know anything about Ms. Sporrer. It's very possible that she is interested in learning the material. It's very possible that she has the natural capacity to learn the material. If she can do this, I commend her. However, it looks very, very bad when Josh Suth is tweeting on the day of the event that she is rummaging through Wikipedia in order to get a primer on the game. There are people on this message board with fifteen-plus years of real-time strategy experience who would be dangerously underqualified to speak about the way that the game of StarCraft plays at its highest levels. There are people on this message board who do not care for what IdrA thinks, a man that has been playing these games forty-plus hours per week over the course of the last three years, and played these games at a fantastically high level. And now, a girl who was thrust into a position of authority because she has a marketable talent (i.e. "cute girl talking about video games") has developed a huge fan base because of her affiliation with StarCraft...even though she knows absolutely nothing about StarCraft. I don't say that to be snarky. She doesn't know the game. She may be able to learn the game, but for now, she doesn't know the game. The game doesn't need that kind of baggage. I don't think it's a good thing when the first comparison I can evoke is a comparison with Olivia Munn. Video game journalism and competitive video games needs fewer Olivia Munns. If the subculture can't yield women who know the games and play them at a high level, then that's just something that we're going to have to live with.
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On July 15 2011 17:36 Falling wrote:
[...]
A far bigger issue is that everytime a female contributes to esports they torn apart because they aren't a goddess of starcraft: [...]
They wouldn't get torn apart if nobody would know them.
And why would i want to know a player who isn't above average?
Just because the player is female?
I'm just playing devils advocate here.
___________
I don't have anything against female starcraft 2 players and i like it when they're recognized by the community, but they shouldn't be hyped just because they're female.
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Canada11350 Posts
Maybe they shouldn't be hyped, but how are you going to stop that? Yell at everyone for naturally reacting in surprise that there's female gamer, particularly a good looking one? It's a rarity and therefore noticeable. You can close your eyes and pretend you're colour blind, but when you're the only white dude in a Buyi village in China you're going to get stares. It's natural and I don't see how you're going to stop it nor really why you would want to.
And you're not going to get this goddess of gaming that has that list of attributes above (macro of Flash, etc, etc) until there is a gender equality in esports. And I suggest tearing the heads off of every girl that dares to raise their hand to contribute in the small ways they can, doesn't help.
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On July 15 2011 17:49 Elzar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 17:36 Falling wrote:
[...]
A far bigger issue is that everytime a female contributes to esports they torn apart because they aren't a goddess of starcraft: [...] They wouldn't get torn apart if nobody would know them. And why would i want to know a player who isn't above average? Just because the player is female? I'm just playing devils advocate here. ___________ I don't have anything against female starcraft 2 players and i like it when they're recognized by the community, but they shouldn't be hyped just because they're female.
the thing is... women are just less competitive at sports related activities and this branches into e-sports as well...i've also never heard of a female gladiator...and the legends of certain female heroines such as the Amazon warriors are very silly and unbelievable...if ballet and cheerleading is a sport, it may explain why the quality is kinda static and why they are going out of style..
i've yet to hear of a women who takes steroids just to be better at say soccer or hockey...
look at your pro-gamers today...they seriously are taking things to the extreme just to win... most of the korean pros look like caffeine addicts
women should be hyped...it's called affirmative action
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On July 15 2011 17:57 Falling wrote:
Maybe they shouldn't be hyped, but how are you going to stop that? Yell at everyone for naturally reacting in surprise that there's female gamer, particularly a good looking one? It's a rarity and therefore noticeable. You can close your eyes and pretend you're colour blind, but when you're the only white dude in a Buyi village in China you're going to get stares. It's natural and I don't see how you're going to stop it nor really why you would want to.
And you're not going to get this goddess of gaming that has that list of attributes above (macro of Flash, etc, etc) until there is a gender equality in esports. And
You cant stop the hype.
I was just saying, i dont think they should be hyped. =)
On July 15 2011 17:57 Falling wrote:I suggest tearing the heads off of every girl that dares to raise their hand to contribute in the small ways they can, doesn't help.
Getting attention for doing nothing special doesn't help either.
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On July 15 2011 18:02 IzieBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 17:49 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 17:36 Falling wrote:
[...]
A far bigger issue is that everytime a female contributes to esports they torn apart because they aren't a goddess of starcraft: [...] They wouldn't get torn apart if nobody would know them. And why would i want to know a player who isn't above average? Just because the player is female? I'm just playing devils advocate here. ___________ I don't have anything against female starcraft 2 players and i like it when they're recognized by the community, but they shouldn't be hyped just because they're female. the thing is... women are just less competitive at sports related activities and this branches into e-sports as well... i've yet to hear of a women who takes steroids just to be better at say soccer or hockey... look at your pro-gamers today...they seriously are taking things to the extreme just to win... most of the korean pros look like caffeine addicts women should be hyped...it's called affirmative action
But then they should show us, that the hype was justified.
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On July 15 2011 18:04 Elzar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 18:02 IzieBoy wrote:On July 15 2011 17:49 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 17:36 Falling wrote:
[...]
A far bigger issue is that everytime a female contributes to esports they torn apart because they aren't a goddess of starcraft: [...] They wouldn't get torn apart if nobody would know them. And why would i want to know a player who isn't above average? Just because the player is female? I'm just playing devils advocate here. ___________ I don't have anything against female starcraft 2 players and i like it when they're recognized by the community, but they shouldn't be hyped just because they're female. the thing is... women are just less competitive at sports related activities and this branches into e-sports as well... i've yet to hear of a women who takes steroids just to be better at say soccer or hockey... look at your pro-gamers today...they seriously are taking things to the extreme just to win... most of the korean pros look like caffeine addicts women should be hyped...it's called affirmative action But then they should show us, that the hype was justified.
show us under the female criteria of performance
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Funny how nobody (or did I miss someone?) answered the OP's question...
Fanclubs have no effect, no. Also... who cares? All these non-issues, tsk.
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On July 15 2011 18:11 Dagobert wrote:
Funny how nobody (or did I miss someone?) answered the OP's question...
Fanclubs have no effect, no. Also... who cares? All these non-issues, tsk.
We've answered the OP perfectly
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On July 15 2011 18:11 IzieBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 18:04 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 18:02 IzieBoy wrote:On July 15 2011 17:49 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 17:36 Falling wrote:
[...]
A far bigger issue is that everytime a female contributes to esports they torn apart because they aren't a goddess of starcraft: [...] They wouldn't get torn apart if nobody would know them. And why would i want to know a player who isn't above average? Just because the player is female? I'm just playing devils advocate here. ___________ I don't have anything against female starcraft 2 players and i like it when they're recognized by the community, but they shouldn't be hyped just because they're female. the thing is... women are just less competitive at sports related activities and this branches into e-sports as well... i've yet to hear of a women who takes steroids just to be better at say soccer or hockey... look at your pro-gamers today...they seriously are taking things to the extreme just to win... most of the korean pros look like caffeine addicts women should be hyped...it's called affirmative action But then they should show us, that the hype was justified. show us under the female criteria of performance
That's fine by me. =)
Like i said before, i think it's good when they're getting attention, but they should show us that they're not just eye-candy.
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I think SonicTitan summed up 90% of the things to be discussed in this thread in a great post, kudos to him. I'd have to agree with him 100%.
However, I'd have to say I also dislike how these fanclubs have suddenly sprung up with recent female people involved in e-Sports when there are quite a lot of male people in the community who have done far more and received little/no recognition for it.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 15 2011 10:07 Nothingtosay wrote: It is no secret that like many fields e-sports is currently a male dominated arena. While I would have a hard time believing that the vast majority of people wish for e-sports to remain this way; I believe that the actions of the community don't reflect a desire to inject more females into the culture of e-sports. Several recent events have intrigued me enough to the point that I feel that it would helpful to see what other memebers of the community feel about the matter. Please be aware that I am not personally attacking any individual in this thread especially considering the fact that they are not responsible for the actions of TL. The primary events that sparked this thread where the creation of two fan clubs that personally view as extremely premature . Namely the Lindsey Sporrer fanclub and the slayers_eve fan club. IN all honesty besides being born female what have either of these people done to warrant a fan club at all? The sporrer fanclub has 53 pages in 3 days, the day9 fan club in comparison has 134 pages and has been active for over one year. Do people not realize that the undeserved reverence and vigilant e-staring ( I use staring instead of stalking because I don't believe it has even come close to being appropriate for that term) is one of the reason why women are driven from this industry and other ones like it? If you treat women just like anyone else I guarantee more would be willing to participate in e-sports. The reason why many girls are afraid of even letting people know that they are female online is because of all the fervent attention it will bring upon them. I'm sure that the mmo players among all ave heard the female members of their guild complaining about what happens when people on their server/realm/world w/e you call it figure out that they are female. Another thing I'd like to comment on is female only tournaments such as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230697 . These do nothing but promote the belief that women cannot compete with men in e-sports which to me seems to be nothing but utter ridiculousness. E-sports are for the most part mental activities the physical requirement is not high enough that sexual dimorphism would have any significant effect. If you want more women in esports stop treating them differently. Women if you want to be treated equally then stop voluntarily segregating yourself with things such as female leagues and tournaments. Do you think things like the relatively quick fan clubs are hurting or helping the problem?
I find this quite true, HOWEVER this is not uncommon in all sports and there is probably a reason for this
Name any sports, theres always a womens only league championship such as the WNBA or the FIFA women's world cup
Its nothing new and Starcraft is beginning to show what other sports have in terms of gender based championships. Yes it can be argued that this is E-Sports, that men don't have the advantage in terms of their structure body over a female which I guess is present in sports.
IT IS NOTHING NEW there have been arguments and debates of gender based tournaments for a lot of sports
So what I want is someone to buildup on my post, what is the real reason for gender base sports tournaments? Is it because of the male biological advantage over female? Is having a girls only e-sports or any sports tournaments truly a bad thing? I disagree, however we dont see a tournament thats called MALES ONLY NBA or anything like this? What are your guys opinions of this?
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I think the OP is missing the part where Women aren't as good at men when it comes to gaming. Statistically speaking at least.
This is a pretty good post
"Women can compete equally in things such as politics but in gaming and sports they are at a disadvantage. Anything that involves reaction times, physical speed and strength men will excel at over women because men have evolved over millions of years as hunters."
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51485 Posts
Right, to all those who consider "Eye candy" girls effecting our community you need to step back from your little world you live in, and turn on a television once in a while. Women are used as a "marketing tool" i know this is really bad, but it is the truth. Pretty woman sell, and they do this very well!
The reason you see Sporrer @ NASL, isnt for the fact she is a pro gamer, or loves SC2 so much she begged for a job...She is there simply to attract more fans to watch because some "eye candy" is there and males like this.
Is this wrong? Well, yes and no in my opinion. You have a Lindsay who was offered the job, accepted it knowing nothing about SC2 and deep down probably because she is a very pretty lady and would be used as one. Then you have the other side, where NASL clearly picked her for being a marketing tool to help boost its profile to the rest of the world, by having these peices of eye candy interviewing and talking into the camera.
So to me, there being used as a marketing tool? In a buisness perspective, i find this fine, money makes the world turn round, not trolls on the internet and not sexism groups. If the people like Lindsay accept the job like this without knowing about the game, so be it, there the ones who will be known as "money grabbers" or "fame whores" whatever.
However, there are 2 current females who are doing alot for the SC2 scene who are very nice "eye candy" these are Incontrols girl friend "Anna Proser" who is Miss Oregon and Miss USA contestant, who even tried to speak about SC2 ini her Miss Oregon pagent speech thing they have to do (you know when they say about world peace and stuff). She is very beautiful yet there is no huge fuss about her? And no trolls QQn them at every possible moment? Also theres "Seltzer" (Rachel Quirico) she aswell is a peice of eye candy, but she has her on SC2 site, lots of news in the SC2 scene, and always helping out. And was pretty funny in her interviews @ NASL. But again theres no huge fuss about her? No trolls QQn her because shes there for her looks whatever? Seems to me that theres alot of shes ok, but shes not. That is what i call "Sexism" not the Lindsay case, or the Kelly issue, but the fact that you only talk about certain females in the SC2 community and not all of them.
And to even mention SlayerS_Eve is just STUPID. She is probably going to be an epic player, she has won offline tournaments before as stated in the post. She was picked out by SlayerS Jessica, boxers girl friend/wife because she herself probably wanted more girls into the SC2 scene, and that SHE IS GOOD AT THE GAME. Just because she is female and is "good looking" is not the reason, the post says something about looks, but thats just miss translation im sure of it.
People need E-Sports to grow, and to grow to bigger audiences is with "eye candy" helping to bring people in. Take american football, theres cheerleaders on the pitch every time out, and a big half time show (In NBA aswell wheres theres more timeouts) yet i dont see any complaints about this? When pretty girls in short skirts "dancing" around getting more people to turn up to the basketball game!
So in my opinion if you want to "BM" Lindsay and any other eye candy marketing tool, BM the company that hired them, or the tournament in our cases.
So dont hate women for being pretty, hate NASL for hiring them!
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EPT
