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On May 27 2011 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think knowing his situation, he should have just obliged and pretended to pray. It's fine that he's standing up for his rights, but as you can see, he didn't gain as much as he lost especially if he knew (and he most likely did) that the surrounding community around him as well as the governing body, were heavily christian.
It's just a bad move on his part, he should have considered more than his individual rights that don't necessarily hurt or affect him to the extent or degree he is in now.
Allowing your constitutional rights to be trodden because you fear the consequences is cowardice. I think the kid did the right thing, it's awful what has happened to him because of it.
I'm saying that as both a catholic and an american.
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is awesome32274 Posts
On May 27 2011 13:40 Slaughter wrote:
*rolls eyes* cue the mass shitstorm from TLs about how religion is horrible. The same crowd that is equally as ignorant and annoying as the religious fanatics.
You seem to have a lot to add to this discussion.
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On May 27 2011 13:57 Spicy Pepper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:39 aguy38 wrote:
but at some point he should have had the common sense to just not say anything. Thomas Paine is rolling over in his grave.
Love the pun 
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I would be interested to see a neutral telling of exactly what happened here. Also, why wouldn't the community be pissed off. His threat to call the ACLU is a lawsuit, suing the school for his own personal enrichment, to the detriment of everyone who pays taxes. Schools are short on funding as it is and this a$$hole wants to sue over this ? It's not about being Christian or Atheist, it's about being an a$$hole.
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On May 27 2011 14:02 valedictory wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:49 travis wrote:
I think it's likely the case that it was poor decisionmaking on his part.. but it largely has to do with what kind of person he is and what kind of character he has. If he is willing to make sacrifices for what he believes in and is willing to handle those consequences then maybe he is ok with what happened. But being that he is still so young, odds are he just didn't have enough foresight. Addressing the young man's foresight, I'm not so sure it's safe to say he didn't have enough really. The government sponsored payer issue is one, but the attraction of this story is just that the community behaved so disproportionately. Certainly it is fair for community members to be upset about the loss of a tradition (though I highly doubt graduation prayer was something particularly nostalgic for many of them), however what sort of actions would a reasonable person expect from an angered community? Gossip mostly I would think. Certainly some outspoken peers; young people speak out of line. I don't think a reasonable person would ever really expect to be 'ostracized' though.
I think it's likely he knew how fanatic the community was and what kind of backlash could come if the information was public that he was going to prevent the school-backed prayer. Just speculation of course. We would probably have to ask him what he thought. Maybe the information is available somewhere, perhaps on reddit.
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On May 27 2011 14:04 Kaitlin wrote:
I would be interested to see a neutral telling of exactly what happened here. Also, why wouldn't the community be pissed off. His threat to call the ACLU is a lawsuit, suing the school for his own personal enrichment, to the detriment of everyone who pays taxes. Schools are short on funding as it is and this a$$hole wants to sue over this ? It's not about being Christian or Atheist, it's about being an a$$hole.
it's about upholding the constitution
a concept easily confused with being an asshole
but i assure you that they are not the same thing
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On May 27 2011 14:00 GeneralissimoNero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:50 Krehlmar wrote:
Either you're trolling, in which case I'd banned you for a month if I was a mod but I'm not, or you're serious in which that's even worse.
EDIT: Not backseat modding here, just saying what consequence I'd bestow upon him because of his attitude towards basic human rights.
(Atleast in the EU, Article 6 rights to private life. I hope YOU'RE trolling. You NEED to be sensitive to your sorroundings. He was disrespectful, and if he wants to prove that Atheists are moral, than he needs to set an example for his community, which is largely unexposed to atheism. The foundation of morality is respect for others, and he should know that. Besides if religion is a sensitive thing in his area, leave it alone. The south is largely African American, if he started shouting racial obscenities, he would get the same reaction. If its sensitive to the area, just leave it be.
I am challenging you to refute this:
Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:50 Chairman Ray wrote:
The kid got what he deserved. If he's treated so harshly for his actions, then that means prayer in his community is extremely important. That's something he needs to learn to respect. Hopefully he learned something from this. ME: Who gives a shit if it's "extremely important" to his community? There is something called separation of church and state. I guess you believe in mob rule? Slavery never should have been abolished? Mobs should be allowed to do whatever they want?
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If someone is an atheist, then they believe that praying is in fact nothing and is just a waste of time. So I am curious what is so wrong with having to sit and have 3 minutes of your time wasted if it comforts and appeases the vast majority of your friends and community. What is the possible downside? It seems selfish to put a few minutes of your time over the wishes of others.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
I'm so glad I have the right to not share my view on this whole situation. That being said, I wish the kid best of luck for the future. Also, his parents are kind of crazy.
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On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote:
Who gives a shit if it's "extremely important" to his community?
lots of people
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote:
There is something called separation of church and state.
overrated
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote:
I guess you believe in mob rule?
no
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote:
Slavery never should have been abolished?
yes, because we abolished slavery we cant put these people in gulags
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote:
Mobs should be allowed to do whatever they want?
probably not
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United States2822 Posts
On May 27 2011 14:04 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:02 valedictory wrote:On May 27 2011 13:49 travis wrote:
I think it's likely the case that it was poor decisionmaking on his part.. but it largely has to do with what kind of person he is and what kind of character he has. If he is willing to make sacrifices for what he believes in and is willing to handle those consequences then maybe he is ok with what happened. But being that he is still so young, odds are he just didn't have enough foresight. Addressing the young man's foresight, I'm not so sure it's safe to say he didn't have enough really. The government sponsored payer issue is one, but the attraction of this story is just that the community behaved so disproportionately. Certainly it is fair for community members to be upset about the loss of a tradition (though I highly doubt graduation prayer was something particularly nostalgic for many of them), however what sort of actions would a reasonable person expect from an angered community? Gossip mostly I would think. Certainly some outspoken peers; young people speak out of line. I don't think a reasonable person would ever really expect to be 'ostracized' though. I think it's likely he knew how fanatic the community was and what kind of backlash could come if the information was public that he was going to prevent the school-backed prayer. Just speculation of course. We would probably have to ask him what he thought. Maybe the information is available somewhere, perhaps on reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/hed7y/threatened_to_contact_aclu_for_prayer_at/
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is awesome32274 Posts
On May 27 2011 13:42 419 wrote:You're very optimistic if you think you can get a productive discussion over this... Show nested quote +One of the chunks of mud that's most commonly slung at atheists is that we're selfish. Amoral.
Among other parts of this article, that's misrepresenting Christian views. The way I see it (as TL's resident fundamentalist!) is that atheists can act morally, but that an absolute moral code can't be rationalized within the bounds of atheism.
That's because there's a different set of morals for religion and for atheists (though do they do have some in common). For this in case in particular though, law is on the side of the student, so I don't think there's much to add other than the community, the school, the teacher and maybe some other people acted outside the law and in immoral ways :p
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51433 Posts
i understand all the commotion from the community, but to NOT HAVE THE BACKING OF YOUR PARENTS?
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Although I must say the article was very biased toward the student, religious prayer should not be allowed in schools, or to be funded by government money. Whether or not he was being a smart ass is not the issue. The response of the community towards him was despicable and should not be tolerated.
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On May 27 2011 14:00 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:57 Diglett wrote:On May 27 2011 13:56 travis wrote:On May 27 2011 13:53 Diglett wrote:
the article is incredibly biased so it's hard to make a good opinion. but all i see a smartass kid trying to troll the school and from that, the whole community screwed him. stupid kid, stupid school, teachers, parents, etc. Could you explain where the bias in the article is? yes. bias towards the student. You need to elaborate. All I saw was a list of facts. In order to say the article is biased you would need opposing facts that back the decision-making of the school/parents/other kids.
written only in perspective of kid.
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On May 27 2011 14:05 StrangrDangr wrote:
If someone is an atheist, then they believe that praying is in fact nothing and is just a waste of time. So I am curious what is so wrong with having to sit and have 3 minutes of your time wasted if it comforts and appeases the vast majority of your friends and community. What is the possible downside? It seems selfish to put a few minutes of your time over the wishes of others.
At first that was my mentality, but the fact that it was the lord's prayer that was recited kind of changed that.
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On May 27 2011 14:02 Sanctimonius wrote:
Wow. Sounds like pretty much everyone involved in this was acting poorly.
I love the theme of the article - atheists good, theists bad. The whole way through it is slanted towards Fowler. It is written expressly to make you on his side. Meh. Poor and biased writing, really. And I don't agree with his actions anyways. Seperation of Church and State is guaranteed by the Constitution, nobody is arguing that. But I really disagree with him trying to force them to cancel the traditional prayer. And he was trying to force them to cancel it, regardless of what the atricle says - threatening to call in the ACLU, which the article specifically says it already in a lawsuit against another school for refusing to change their own religious traditions? That's a threat, a demand to cancel the prayer. I went to a university with plenty of religious traditions, and I knew a lot of atheists who joined in them simply as a cultural exercise, enjoying the traditions which we are left from religion. It wasn't trying to force them to convert, just as this prayer wasn't trying to force Fowler to. He had the option of opting out. Instead he tried to force everyone to follow his beliefs, tried to force his own views on the majority. Is it any wonder people were angry?
Having said that, the reaction was shockingly overboard. He has the right to his views, even if I think he acted like an idiot in the first place. Hounding him, attacking him, threats of bodily violence? It's sad people think that is an acceptable way to act, even if he was attacking something dear to them. He is being bullied, and from the sound of it one teacher at least doesn't really care. Still, his parents are acting the worst in this. Throwing him out for standing up against something he disagrees with? Wow. I hope that if my kids stand up for something I don't agree with I can at least understand their position.
He didn't force anyone to believe anything, just didn't want to pray to something false and followed the law.
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United States22883 Posts
On May 27 2011 14:00 GeneralissimoNero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:50 Krehlmar wrote:
Either you're trolling, in which case I'd banned you for a month if I was a mod but I'm not, or you're serious in which that's even worse.
EDIT: Not backseat modding here, just saying what consequence I'd bestow upon him because of his attitude towards basic human rights.
(Atleast in the EU, Article 6 rights to private life. I hope YOU'RE trolling. You NEED to be sensitive to your sorroundings. He was disrespectful, and if he wants to prove that Atheists are moral, than he needs to set an example for his community, which is largely unexposed to atheism. The foundation of morality is respect for others, and he should know that.
This is completely absurd. Not only does he have no obligation to prove that atheists are moral, just as the assholes who harassed him don't have to prove Christians are moral, but your foundation of morality is dubious at best, especially when the community heeded no such thing towards atheists.
Smart ass or not, he is right and he took a stand for US Law, against a bunch of people who disagreed.
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This is a strictly legal issue in my eyes. Everyone commenting negatively about a person attempting to see to it that the foundations of our (USA) legal system are upheld are clearly ludicrous. Legally, this is what I see:
a) Mr. Fowler attempts to prevent his rights from being infringed on.
b) School agrees and then student's information is leaked. NOTE! Information Leaked!? As in, a HUGE breach of privacy which immediately means numerous officials did not control their flow of confidential information.
c) Numerous assault charges (physical threats of violence and death = assault).
etc.
To me, I can remove myself from the religious aspect of this debate and consider it a strictly legal one. I hope you all can actually do the same in an attempt to understand the purely legal ramifications of this.
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If when I went to high school some random troll killed off an activity I loved then yeah I probably would have bullied him for it. In fact we did give shit to the guys who got our weekly activities cancelled.
He could quite easily have spoken to the principle or something and stated that he did not want to participate in the prayer and things would have been fine (if they aren't then by all means, go all super-intendent on them).
As it stands though he just looks like some punk kid trolled his community and has been ostracized for it, nothing wrong with that. I must admit the family disowning him is pretty disturbing though. That is an insane level of overreaction from them.
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