On May 27 2011 14:05 StrangrDangr wrote: If someone is an atheist, then they believe that praying is in fact nothing and is just a waste of time. So I am curious what is so wrong with having to sit and have 3 minutes of your time wasted if it comforts and appeases the vast majority of your friends and community. What is the possible downside? It seems selfish to put a few minutes of your time over the wishes of others.
Clearly you are only looking at this from your own perspective. As an atheist I see prayer as beyond useless and the God that is being prayed to as a motivation for all kinds of actions that I don't agree with. People use God to justify all kinds of horrible crimes and actions why would I want to be forced to give into that and just go along with it? I don't care if you prayer but I wouldn't salute a fascist and I don't want to pray to a God who is used as a justification for evil.
people use "its the right thing to do" as a justification or a lot of bad things
or "the general welfare" or "the greater good" or "the well-being of humanity"
are you now going to shun all the people who believe in these things
On May 27 2011 14:08 TheLink wrote: If when I went to high school some random troll killed off an activity I loved then yeah I probably would have bullied him for it. In fact we did give shit to the guys who got our weekly activities cancelled.
He could quite easily have spoken to the principle or something and stated that he did not want to participate in the prayer and things would have been fine (if they aren't then by all means, go all super-intendent on them).
As it stands though he just looks like some punk kid trolled his community and has been ostracized for it, nothing wrong with that. I must admit the family disowning him is pretty disturbing though. That is an insane level of overreaction from them.
Prayer in a public school is a direct violation of very first federal law enacted by the U.S. government; no religion in state/federal run institutions. From a strictly legal sense, he was upholding the law of the federal government.
So this story is a bit adjacent, but I went to a very large, very diverse highschool in a liberal city and every year we had a Diversity Week with food fairs and discussion panels and so on. I don't remember what one of the specific panels was on, but they had the Gay/Straight Alliance on it and a few other religious/social groups. Now at my school, there was also a conservative Christian group that also wanted to be on the panel and their views differed completely from the rest, and they opposed homosexuality in a polite way (again, I don't remember exactly what it was about- maybe safe sex or something.)
The school denied that group access to the discussion and the leader sued the shit out of the school district. I never liked that Christian group and I wasn't a fan of that leader, but I think she was absolutely right in what she did and while it sucked that the school lost millions of dollars over it, in my opinion the blame rests solely on the fucking stupid administrators. I feel the same way here.
On May 27 2011 14:15 WGarrison wrote: There are ways to legally have a prayer at a graduation. A legal prayer at a graduation is a moment of silence allotted for any students to say a private prayer for themselves in their own fashion.
A read out loud prayer at a public school graduation however is indeed unconstitutional. An atheist of course does not have to pray to a read aloud prayer, but the issue is that one religious group is getting an unfair privilege in an inappropriate (illegal) venue. This is oppressing to any individual that is not a part of the privileged religion.
The constitution is written in a specific zero tolerance way to prevent government owned venues for religious persecution in any form. Something as simple as a short prayer at a graduation can lead to full scale religious persecution. The law is written to prevent exactly what is occurring to Fowler. If the law was upheld regularly this whole situation would be a non issue. There would be no read aloud prayer and Fowler would not be in the news.
Please note that I am only speaking to the legality of the issue and that I have no opinions here of the actions of individuals or the merits of religion versus atheism. I believe that the constitutional rights of a student were violated here and the courts need to step up and change the way these cases are handled to prevent religious persecution of any kind in a government funded venue.
BINGO. Simple way to get out of it, let everyone do their own silent prayer or not if they so desire. Reading aloud a Christian prayer makes all the non-Christian students feel like they don't belong at their own graduation.
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Who gives a shit if it's "extremely important" to his community?
lots of people
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: There is something called separation of church and state.
overrated
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: I guess you believe in mob rule?
no
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Slavery never should have been abolished?
yes, because we abolished slavery we cant put these people in gulags
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Mobs should be allowed to do whatever they want?
probably not
Please just go. This post makes no sense and in no way addresses the fundamental point that Travis was trying to make that if you don't stand up for your rights, then they will be trampled. Community views are not always right
my post makes a lot of sense
it is a series of answers to a series of questions
if you dont want rhetorical questions answered maybe you shouldnt ask them
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Who gives a shit if it's "extremely important" to his community?
lots of people
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: There is something called separation of church and state.
overrated
lol, whether or not it is overrated has nothing to do with ACTUAL LEGALITY. but I would disagree with you anyways and say it's severely underrated.
around the world its severely underrated as apostasy will get you killed in some places
but nobody ever died because they had to say a prayer in school, it's not like an allergy
plus legality is overrated just ask TL what it thinks of recreational marijuana usage
So instead of providing a counter argument to the content of Travis' point, you provide meaningless answers to the rhetoric to prove your point? Either you misunderstood, or you are splitting hairs. Point is simple, the boy was legally within his rights to complain, the community overreacted.
Majority != right, particulary when there is law stating so. In this case, community opinion means exactly nothing.
yea it doesnt sound like he was being a smart ass. it sounds like he filed a formal complaint with the principal. it was supposed to be discreet, but the info got "leaked" to everyone else and onward came the shitstorm.
To the people saying he deserved it for being "disrespectful" to everyone else, he was NOT being disrespectful. He wasnt insulting them, he wasnt pulling a stunt. He was trying to stand up for his constitutional rights. He believed in something and stood behind his beliefs. We usually call that being "principled", and when he does that in the face of overwhelming opposition we usually call that "courageous".
On May 27 2011 13:40 Slaughter wrote: *rolls eyes* cue the mass shitstorm from TLs about how religion is horrible. The same crowd that is equally as ignorant and annoying as the religious fanatics.
i dont believe that the atheist crowd is "equally as ignorant" as the religious fanatics. they may be snarkier and equally as mean to the opposing side (well atheists havent killed and tortured their opponents or thrown their own kids under the bus), but dont even try to suggest that people who prefer supporting evidence and rational thought over blind fanaticism is "equally as ignorant".
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Who gives a shit if it's "extremely important" to his community?
lots of people
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: There is something called separation of church and state.
overrated
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: I guess you believe in mob rule?
no
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Slavery never should have been abolished?
yes, because we abolished slavery we cant put these people in gulags
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Mobs should be allowed to do whatever they want?
probably not
Please just go. This post makes no sense and in no way addresses the fundamental point that Travis was trying to make that if you don't stand up for your rights, then they will be trampled. Community views are not always right
my post makes a lot of sense
it is a series of answers to a series of questions
if you dont want rhetorical questions answered maybe you shouldnt ask them
On May 27 2011 14:12 travis wrote:
On May 27 2011 14:07 EmeraldSparks wrote:
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Who gives a shit if it's "extremely important" to his community?
lots of people
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: There is something called separation of church and state.
overrated
lol, whether or not it is overrated has nothing to do with ACTUAL LEGALITY. but I would disagree with you anyways and say it's severely underrated.
around the world its severely underrated as apostasy will get you killed in some places
but nobody ever died because they had to say a prayer in school, it's not like an allergy
plus legality is overrated just ask TL what it thinks of recreational marijuana usage
Yes, TL is the #1 source for law doctrine.
tl fighting \o/
well, it's not about expertise per se, it's just about how much respect people are willing to give the law
which really depends on the particular law in question
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Who gives a shit if it's "extremely important" to his community?
lots of people
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: There is something called separation of church and state.
overrated
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: I guess you believe in mob rule?
no
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Slavery never should have been abolished?
yes, because we abolished slavery we cant put these people in gulags
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Mobs should be allowed to do whatever they want?
probably not
Please just go. This post makes no sense and in no way addresses the fundamental point that Travis was trying to make that if you don't stand up for your rights, then they will be trampled. Community views are not always right
my post makes a lot of sense
it is a series of answers to a series of questions
if you dont want rhetorical questions answered maybe you shouldnt ask them
On May 27 2011 14:12 travis wrote:
On May 27 2011 14:07 EmeraldSparks wrote:
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: Who gives a shit if it's "extremely important" to his community?
lots of people
On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote: There is something called separation of church and state.
overrated
lol, whether or not it is overrated has nothing to do with ACTUAL LEGALITY. but I would disagree with you anyways and say it's severely underrated.
around the world its severely underrated as apostasy will get you killed in some places
but nobody ever died because they had to say a prayer in school, it's not like an allergy
plus legality is overrated just ask TL what it thinks of recreational marijuana usage
So instead of providing a counter argument to the content of Travis' point, you provide meaningless answers to the rhetoric to prove your point? Either you misunderstood, or you are splitting hairs. Point is simple, the boy was legally within his rights to complain, the community overreacted.
Majority != right, particulary when there is law stating so. In this case, community opinion means exactly nothing.
if the questions you ask have meaningless answers the questions were probably meaningless in the first place that's why rhetorical questions fucking blow as a tactic of debate
he was legally within his rights indeed but you have missed the point that i was making
On May 27 2011 14:16 Jibba wrote: So this story is a bit adjacent, but I went to a very large, very diverse highschool in a liberal city and every year we had a Diversity Week with food fairs and discussion panels and so on. I don't remember what one of the specific panels was on, but they had the Gay/Straight Alliance on it and a few other religious/social groups. Now at my school, there was also a conservative Christian group that also wanted to be on the panel and their views differed completely from the rest (again, I don't remember exactly what it was about- maybe safe sex or something.)
The school denied that group access to the discussion and the leader sued the shit out of the school district. I never liked that Christian group and I wasn't a fan of that leader, but I think she was absolutely right in what she did and while it sucked that the school lost millions of dollars over it, in my opinion the blame rests solely on the fucking stupid administrators. I feel the same way here.
Sometimes fundamentalist Christian groups get banned because they harass people by publicly slandering women who get abortions and handing out graphic images of aborted fetuses. However, if they want to oppose abortion in a calm manner that doesn't get in the face of students who don't want to hear it, that should be allowed.
On May 27 2011 13:47 EmeraldSparks wrote: Everybody involved should probably be sent to a gulag.
including the kid?
Well, he can go if he wants to.
I heard atheists are big on gulags.
This post has very great depth and I admire it.
On May 27 2011 14:14 Zzoram wrote: I'm sure all of America would be outraged if a public school with a sizable Muslim population held prayers to Allah but not Christian prayers during graduation. Christianity holds an undoubtedly priviliged place in America despite claims of religious equality and freedom.
Theres actually a practicing muslum in my class for graduation. Hes given a pass out of class at the proper times so he can pray in silence and during tests he just does it in class right there. The common consensus is "I don't give a shit" Its like America is Team liquid and the church is another poster. Its been around for so long and contributed so much (and done great sins as well) that the mods put him higher then the newer people.
But really Guys its the deep south and the kid was being a smart ass the way he simply "demanded" that the prayer be canceled. They still have chaplains in the military and they still pray in the sport house's before each game in the successful schools. I'm not saying anything about the situation was right but the Person who wrote this (lets be honest) blog is horribly biased and acts like the majority of america is Christian still. Which it frankly isn't.
TLDR: I don't want to study evolution and have to have that shuved down my throat to get a good grade in that class but I keep my mouth shut and get though it and don't call the ALCU.
On May 27 2011 14:05 StrangrDangr wrote: If someone is an atheist, then they believe that praying is in fact nothing and is just a waste of time. So I am curious what is so wrong with having to sit and have 3 minutes of your time wasted if it comforts and appeases the vast majority of your friends and community. What is the possible downside? It seems selfish to put a few minutes of your time over the wishes of others.
Clearly you are only looking at this from your own perspective. As an atheist I see prayer as beyond useless and the God that is being prayed to as a motivation for all kinds of actions that I don't agree with. People use God to justify all kinds of horrible crimes and actions why would I want to be forced to give into that and just go along with it? I don't care if you prayer but I wouldn't salute a fascist and I don't want to pray to a God who is used as a justification for evil.
The people that do those horrible crimes and use God to justify them would still do those things and just come up with some other justification if not God. In this cause and effect scenerio you describe religion is not the cause, Idiocricy is.
"Faith is not something that can be left at the schoolhouse door, and indeed the Constitution does not attempt to impose such an unreasonable standard. I support protecting religious freedom for all faiths. However, I oppose and I believe the Constitution prohibits mandated school prayer in public schools. My reason for opposing school prayer rests upon the idea that defending the separation between church and state is neither a Democratic nor a Republican idea, but an American idea. I do support a student's right to voluntarily pray in school or practice a moment of silence. I voted in favor of an amendment that gave individuals in public school the opportunity for silent prayer with appropriate constitutional safeguards. I believe that we must remain vigilant to ensure that no student is forced to pray and that the contents of any prayer are not dictated by school officials.'
This seems like the right idea. Schools should be full of prayer, but not mandated prayers.
On May 27 2011 14:14 Zzoram wrote: I'm sure all of America would be outraged if a public school with a sizable Muslim population held prayers to Allah but not Christian prayers during graduation. Christianity holds an undoubtedly priviliged place in America despite claims of religious equality and freedom.
Theres actually a practicing muslum in my class for graduation. Hes given a pass out of class at the proper times so he can pray in silence and during tests he just does it in class right there. The common consensus is "I don't give a shit" Its like America is Team liquid and the church is another poster. Its been around for so long and contributed so much (and done great sins as well) that the mods put him higher then the newer people.
But really Guys its the deep south and the kid was being a smart ass the way he simply "demanded" that the prayer be canceled. They still have chaplains in the military and they still pray in the sport house's before each game in the successful schools. I'm not saying anything about the situation was right but the Person who wrote this (lets be honest) blog is horribly biased and acts like the majority of america is Christian still. Which it frankly isn't.
TLDR: I don't want to study evolution and have to have that shuved down my throat to get a good grade in that class but I keep my mouth shut and get though it and don't call the ALCU.
The Muslim student is doing a personal prayer, that's fine. The school could've had a moment of silence for all the students to do their own personal prayers. When an individual representing the school does an official prayer on behalf of the school, that's where the violation of the constitutional right occurs.
Evolution is science, it's ok to teach science in science class.
Prayers are religion, it's not ok for the school to have an official prayer since government isn't allowed to favor one religion over another.
The school should have just had a "moment of silence" to create a solemn segment during which christians could pray and the atheists could think. Instead, the christofascist administration made the kid's life tremendously harder and put the district at risk of an expensive lawsuit.
On May 27 2011 14:05 StrangrDangr wrote: If someone is an atheist, then they believe that praying is in fact nothing and is just a waste of time. So I am curious what is so wrong with having to sit and have 3 minutes of your time wasted if it comforts and appeases the vast majority of your friends and community. What is the possible downside? It seems selfish to put a few minutes of your time over the wishes of others.
I'm not going to talk about this case in particular, but, from my own experience:
I went to a catholic school, and there were a bunch of things that annoyed me. I guess it's my fault, or my parents actually, but I couldn't really leave school without leaving a lot of friends behind. My school was pretty good in terms of education, and there was a prayer every day, in the first class we had, then we read a passage (I hope this is the correct english term) of the Bible, and then "discussed it". This took about 20-30' of class depending on the discussion (which was moderated by a catholic priest, so it wasn't really a discussion).
On any catholic holiday (like easter, or any special ocassion) we had a mass we had to attend, and if you didn't, you had to stay in the class alone, looking at the walls. This repeated itself with lots of catholic celebrations. It just felt like a waste of time to me.
The only actual thing I actually though it was not a waste of time, is when we went to poorer places in the city to help younger kids with their homework, or to cook for them, or teach them something.
Again, I don't know about this case, but when I graduated from High School, we had a mass, and then the actual ceremony. I was happy to see I wasn't the only one who skipped the mass, because I knew a lot of my high school peers didn't believe in it. I know a bunch who didn't but went anyway because they didn't want to feel "left out".
Also, sorry for the rant, but it feels like kids are being used to prove the greatness of some church with this celebrations when half of them don't know what they are actually preaching, or praying about.
edit: Besides my rant. Bottom line, why should he be forced to stay there if he doesn't believe in it and it's illegal?
On May 27 2011 13:53 Diglett wrote: the article is incredibly biased so it's hard to make a good opinion. but all i see a smartass kid trying to troll the school and from that, the whole community screwed him. stupid kid, stupid school, teachers, parents, etc.
Could you explain where the bias in the article is?
On May 27 2011 13:55 ghrur wrote: You couldn't have quoted a less inflammatory article in a less obviously inflammatory way? Look, I no way condone the actions of the community, but I really hate this article being so heavily biased towards atheists (despite being one.) I'd rather call the community stupid and crazy rather than turn it into a Christian vs Atheists argument.
you too
Of course.
It takes the actions of a few and generalizes across to the whole. Specifically, it takes the actions of one southern community and generalizes it to all Christians. It also takes the actions of a few atheists as proof of the whole atheistic community. And it does this without reliable statistics that allow you to do so.
Example:
There's the ugly reality of anti-atheist bigotry and discrimination across the country -- especially in high schools. According to JT Eberhard, high school specialist for the Secular Student Alliance, "In Alabama, Auburn High School is refusing to allow an SSA affiliate. In Cranston, Rhode Island, a public school is facing an ACLU suit for refusing to take down a sectarian prayer [a banner posted in the school gym]. In Texas we had a student who was told he could have a secular club if he called it a philosophy club and didn't affiliate with the SSA. The list of similar situations is a mile long and these are only the ones I've become aware of in my first four and a half months on the job. The Fowler incident is much closer to being the norm than the exception."
There are rants about religion to be had here as well. There's the level of not only hostility, but panicked hostility, when entrenched religion gets its privileged status threatened. There's the way that religion relies on social consensus to perpetuate itself -- and how, when that consensus is threatened, it commonly reacts by smacking down dissent and expelling dissenters.
The first paragraph claims that this is the norm with three examples. Then it transitions to the second paragraph quoted to rant about religion. This is specifically hostile against religion, blaming them as the cause, and therefore the antithesis (atheism) is to be supported. It also insinuates that the norm for religious communities is to harass atheists or have an "anti-atheist bigotry." Really, that's far from the truth.
The article also uses diction to stress the connection between the community and Christians in general. Note:
When a high school atheist tried to stop prayer at his graduation, he was harassed and kicked out of his house
See, instead of high school student, it's high school atheist right before prayer. At his graduation means that the school is the Christian entity. Further support for this claim?
Damon Fowler, an atheist student
Stressing atheism with Fowler. School with Christian.
They went ahead and had the graduation prayer anyway.
They = school. Graduation prayer = school. Prayer = Religious, Christian thing to do. School = Christian.
And Damon is fortunate enough to have the backing of the atheist community
Damon = atheist. Making it clear. My god, this quote even juxtaposes the communities by basically saying atheist community = good, Damon's community = Christians = bad.
And that's the way the atheist community has stepped up to the plate
Once again, juxtaposing atheist community with Christian community (because one stepped up to the plate, who didn't? Christian community is implied).
So basically, the article is subtly (well, not really) arguing the superiority of the Atheist community to the Christian community.
Oh, and of course, there's loaded language here too to specifically cause hatred against the community in question. Ostracized, demeaned, threatened, pilloried, hounded, etc. then connecting those actions back to Christians using the things I said above. Can you really say this isn't biased against the Christian community? Just take a look at the condescending tone it uses too.
Oh, and by the way? They went ahead and had the graduation prayer anyway.
Implication: Christians ignore the law.
It's a law and a Constitution that protects everybody, not just atheists. If you wouldn't want to be subjected to a government-sponsored Buddhist prayer, you ought not to be subjecting others to a government-sponsored Christian prayer.
Okay. I hope that's clear
Implication: I know the law; I know the Constitution. You don't because you're a Christian. Let me explain it for you.
In other words: Because the majority of students want an unconstitutional prayer at their graduation, therefore they're in the right.
Implication: Christians think majority is always right, despite it being unconstitutional.
There's the lack of understanding in the United States about fundamental civics: the all-too-common belief that "majority rules" in every situation, and the all-too-common failure to comprehend the principle that the minority has basic civil rights.
Implication: Christians across the US don't understand fundamental civics.
And of course -- duh -- there's separation of church and state. There's the principle that a public school should not be sponsoring prayers at graduations. What with that being a government establishment of religion and all, and thus being -- oh, what's that word? -- unconstitutional.
Implication: Christians don't understand separation of Church and State.
Yup. I would be fine reporting the event, but making a whole deal of Christians are bad vs Atheists are good just annoys the crap out of me.
On May 27 2011 14:19 Supamang wrote: yea it doesnt sound like he was being a smart ass. it sounds like he filed a formal complaint with the principal. it was supposed to be discreet, but the info got "leaked" to everyone else and onward came the shitstorm.
To the people saying he deserved it for being "disrespectful" to everyone else, he was NOT being disrespectful. He wasnt insulting them, he wasnt pulling a stunt. He was trying to stand up for his constitutional rights. He believed in something and stood behind his beliefs. We usually call that being "principled", and when he does that in the face of overwhelming opposition we usually call that "courageous".
On May 27 2011 13:40 Slaughter wrote: *rolls eyes* cue the mass shitstorm from TLs about how religion is horrible. The same crowd that is equally as ignorant and annoying as the religious fanatics.
i dont believe that the atheist crowd is "equally as ignorant" as the religious fanatics. they may be snarkier and equally as mean to the opposing side (well atheists havent killed and tortured their opponents or thrown their own kids under the bus), but dont even try to suggest that people who prefer supporting evidence and rational thought over blind fanaticism is "equally as ignorant".
Oh I have to disagree, being an atheist has nothing to do with rationality or even logic. There are plenty of stupid ass atheists out there. Not believing in God doesn't make you rational being that demands evidence automatically. I was also more pointing to the fact that the "dumb" portion of both groups are ignorant about what the other side is really about and thats the problem because the dumb people always scream the loudest.
EPT
