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On May 27 2011 13:54 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:50 Chairman Ray wrote:
The kid got what he deserved. If he's treated so harshly for his actions, then that means prayer in his community is extremely important. That's something he needs to learn to respect. Hopefully he learned something from this. Who gives a shit if it's "extremely important" to his community? There is something called separation of church and state. I guess you believe in mob rule? Slavery never should have been abolished? Mobs should be allowed to do whatever they want?
What is this, I don't even...
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So as long as it's the religion of the majority, it's unwise for the minority to speak up about an unconstitutional practice according to some of you. Let's defend the 1st Amendment when it just suits us.
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On May 27 2011 14:16 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:15 Jswizzy wrote:On May 27 2011 14:05 StrangrDangr wrote:
If someone is an atheist, then they believe that praying is in fact nothing and is just a waste of time. So I am curious what is so wrong with having to sit and have 3 minutes of your time wasted if it comforts and appeases the vast majority of your friends and community. What is the possible downside? It seems selfish to put a few minutes of your time over the wishes of others. Clearly you are only looking at this from your own perspective. As an atheist I see prayer as beyond useless and the God that is being prayed to as a motivation for all kinds of actions that I don't agree with. People use God to justify all kinds of horrible crimes and actions why would I want to be forced to give into that and just go along with it? I don't care if you prayer but I wouldn't salute a fascist and I don't want to pray to a God who is used as a justification for evil. people use "its the right thing to do" as a justification or a lot of bad things or "the general welfare" or "the greater good" or "the well-being of humanity" are you now going to shun all the people who believe in these things
Yeah yeah, a lot of shit happens when some shit is loosely connected to the matter at hand whatever man.
We are not talking about "a lot of bad things." We are talking about the situation at hand, namely the kid being ostracized and threatened based on his beliefs and based on his desire to stand up for his own constitutional rights. Dont bring up some random bullshit about "the general welfare" or "the greater good" being used for bad things because that has nothing to do with this case (plus youre starting to tread dangerously close to "socialism" arguments). Stick to the points.
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I don't go out of my way to call out atheists because I think thy are wrong, what right does that give this kid to do that to a tradition.
Second, what kind of crap is this article spewing? The kid says something because he "knows it's constitutionally wrong"? More likely he just didn't agree with it, and the article writer decided to expand on those feelings.
Also, I'm pretty sure teacher led prayer is unconstitutional. Nothing to do with actually praying as a traditional way to start a ceremony. But, once again, the article writer shows his ignorance.
To sum up my rant, the article writer is a biased idiot, the kid didn't deserve to have been treated that way, and Christians, Atheists, and everyone on Team Liquid is likely to over react about this.
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On May 27 2011 14:24 Spicy Pepper wrote:
So as long as it's the religion of the majority, it's unwise for the minority to speak up about an unconstitutional practice according to some of you. Let's defend the 1st Amendment when it just suits us.
that's good advice
some people are so dumb that they shouldn't have first amendment rights
unfortunately the law doesn't work that way
On May 27 2011 14:25 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:16 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 27 2011 14:15 Jswizzy wrote:On May 27 2011 14:05 StrangrDangr wrote:
If someone is an atheist, then they believe that praying is in fact nothing and is just a waste of time. So I am curious what is so wrong with having to sit and have 3 minutes of your time wasted if it comforts and appeases the vast majority of your friends and community. What is the possible downside? It seems selfish to put a few minutes of your time over the wishes of others. Clearly you are only looking at this from your own perspective. As an atheist I see prayer as beyond useless and the God that is being prayed to as a motivation for all kinds of actions that I don't agree with. People use God to justify all kinds of horrible crimes and actions why would I want to be forced to give into that and just go along with it? I don't care if you prayer but I wouldn't salute a fascist and I don't want to pray to a God who is used as a justification for evil. people use "its the right thing to do" as a justification or a lot of bad things or "the general welfare" or "the greater good" or "the well-being of humanity" are you now going to shun all the people who believe in these things Yeah yeah, a lot of shit happens when some shit is loosely connected to the matter at hand whatever man. We are not talking about "a lot of bad things." We are talking about the situation at hand, namely the kid being ostracized and threatened based on his beliefs and based on his desire to stand up for his own constitutional rights. Dont bring up some random bullshit about "the general welfare" or "the greater good" being used for bad things because that has nothing to do with this case (plus youre starting to tread dangerously close to "socialism" arguments). Stick to the points.
the person i was talking to was actually talking about "all kinds of horrible crimes and actions" and somehow he started talking about fascism also but apparently i'm now the one derailing the conversation with random bullshit
how exciting
On May 27 2011 14:25 mastergriggy wrote:
To sum up my rant, the article writer is a biased idiot, the kid didn't deserve to have been treated that way, and Christians, Atheists, and everyone on Team Liquid is likely to over react about this.
yep you are the only one in teamliquid who is smart enough to give a measured response
gold star for you
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do you think religion will ever fade out? as society changes and evolves, you think anyone claiming religion will be given a padded cell?
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I am simply baffled by his parents. Unbelievable.
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On May 27 2011 14:20 StrangrDangr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:15 Jswizzy wrote:On May 27 2011 14:05 StrangrDangr wrote:
If someone is an atheist, then they believe that praying is in fact nothing and is just a waste of time. So I am curious what is so wrong with having to sit and have 3 minutes of your time wasted if it comforts and appeases the vast majority of your friends and community. What is the possible downside? It seems selfish to put a few minutes of your time over the wishes of others. Clearly you are only looking at this from your own perspective. As an atheist I see prayer as beyond useless and the God that is being prayed to as a motivation for all kinds of actions that I don't agree with. People use God to justify all kinds of horrible crimes and actions why would I want to be forced to give into that and just go along with it? I don't care if you prayer but I wouldn't salute a fascist and I don't want to pray to a God who is used as a justification for evil. The people that do those horrible crimes and use God to justify them would still do those things and just come up with some other justification if not God. In this cause and effect scenerio you describe religion is not the cause, Idiocricy is.
No, most of them wouldn't.
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We all know most chrisitans are retarded...
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On May 27 2011 14:25 mastergriggy wrote:
I don't go out of my way to call out atheists because I think thy are wrong, what right does that give this kid to do that to a tradition.
Second, what kind of crap is this article spewing? The kid says something because he "knows it's constitutionally wrong"? More likely he just didn't agree with it, and the article writer decided to expand on those feelings.
Also, I'm pretty sure teacher led prayer is unconstitutional. Nothing to do with actually praying as a traditional way to start a ceremony. But, once again, the article writer shows his ignorance.
To sum up my rant, the article writer is a biased idiot, the kid didn't deserve to have been treated that way, and Christians, Atheists, and everyone on Team Liquid is likely to over react about this.
Okay do you think they would have allowed a Muslim Prayer to be read at graduation if there was Muslim students? What about Hindu students? How many unbiased news stories would be covering the same exact graduation?
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United States22883 Posts
On May 27 2011 14:25 mastergriggy wrote:
I don't go out of my way to call out atheists because I think thy are wrong, what right does that give this kid to do that to a tradition. Really? It's the Bill of FUCKING Rights. That's what enables him to do that.
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On May 27 2011 14:26 FearTheReaperMan wrote:
We all know most chrisitans are retarded...
really not even a warn?
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On May 27 2011 14:24 Spicy Pepper wrote:
So as long as it's the religion of the majority, it's unwise for the minority to speak up about an unconstitutional practice according to some of you. Let's defend the 1st Amendment when it just suits us.
I bet all these religious zealots are Tea Party members who love talking about the Constitution too.
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his parents are asses enough said.
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On May 27 2011 14:24 Chairman Ray wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:54 travis wrote:On May 27 2011 13:50 Chairman Ray wrote:
The kid got what he deserved. If he's treated so harshly for his actions, then that means prayer in his community is extremely important. That's something he needs to learn to respect. Hopefully he learned something from this. Who gives a shit if it's "extremely important" to his community? There is something called separation of church and state. I guess you believe in mob rule? Slavery never should have been abolished? Mobs should be allowed to do whatever they want? What is this, I don't even...
Really helpful post man. Youre clearly really trying hard to understand your opponent's position...
Hes saying that just because everyone does something doesnt mean its right. Youre saying that he shouldnt stand up for himself simply because more people oppose his viewpoint. Standing up for himself is not disrespect. He wasnt mocking them, he made a formal complaint about a legitimate matter. To be honest, suggesting that he should back down from his position just because everyone around him disagrees is pretty cowardly.
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On May 27 2011 14:25 mastergriggy wrote:
I don't go out of my way to call out atheists because I think thy are wrong, what right does that give this kid to do that to a tradition.
Second, what kind of crap is this article spewing? The kid says something because he "knows it's constitutionally wrong"? More likely he just didn't agree with it, and the article writer decided to expand on those feelings.
Also, I'm pretty sure teacher led prayer is unconstitutional. Nothing to do with actually praying as a traditional way to start a ceremony. But, once again, the article writer shows his ignorance.
To sum up my rant, the article writer is a biased idiot, the kid didn't deserve to have been treated that way, and Christians, Atheists, and everyone on Team Liquid is likely to over react about this.
Slave owning is a tradition in the south? What right did we have to challenge it in the south? Just because something is tradition doesn't mean that it is a sacred right.
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For a country that likes to think we are tolerant we sure just love our fights. If people just had a fundamental respect for each other and their personal beliefs then this crap wouldn't go on. But no we all have to be right and they have to be wrong and therefore we need to fight over fundamental beliefs.
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On May 27 2011 14:07 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote:
Who gives a shit if it's "extremely important" to his community? lots of people Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote:
There is something called separation of church and state. overrated no yes, because we abolished slavery we cant put these people in gulags Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:05 travis wrote:
Mobs should be allowed to do whatever they want? probably not
I disagree with the attacks against you they are unfounded, however, how can you justify calling separation of church and state overrated?
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I can't understand why so many people here would be saying that the atheist is at fault. This is no predantic smartassery, this is an utmost clear case of the school acting against law. If you don't like that, be against the law but not against that kid.
And that type of response of the christians around him is just unbelievable. What an affront to constitutional rights, law and common sense.
On May 27 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:15 WGarrison wrote:
There are ways to legally have a prayer at a graduation. A legal prayer at a graduation is a moment of silence allotted for any students to say a private prayer for themselves in their own fashion.
A read out loud prayer at a public school graduation however is indeed unconstitutional. An atheist of course does not have to pray to a read aloud prayer, but the issue is that one religious group is getting an unfair privilege in an inappropriate (illegal) venue. This is oppressing to any individual that is not a part of the privileged religion.
The constitution is written in a specific zero tolerance way to prevent government owned venues for religious persecution in any form. Something as simple as a short prayer at a graduation can lead to full scale religious persecution. The law is written to prevent exactly what is occurring to Fowler. If the law was upheld regularly this whole situation would be a non issue. There would be no read aloud prayer and Fowler would not be in the news.
Please note that I am only speaking to the legality of the issue and that I have no opinions here of the actions of individuals or the merits of religion versus atheism. I believe that the constitutional rights of a student were violated here and the courts need to step up and change the way these cases are handled to prevent religious persecution of any kind in a government funded venue. BINGO. Simple way to get out of it, let everyone do their own silent prayer or not if they so desire. Reading aloud a Christian prayer makes all the non-Christian students feel like they don't belong at their own graduation.
A valuable point. Even I, having christian roots, feel alien in a christian church nowadays. There are good elements to it, those related to humanism, but there also are strange, occult, ritualised elements to it that alienate me.
A moment of silence giving room for personal prayers is a whole different story. Do what you want, believers, but don't drag me into it.
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Show nested quote +I'm sure all of America would be outraged if a public school with a sizable Muslim population held prayers to Allah but not Christian prayers during graduation. Christianity holds an undoubtedly priviliged place in America despite claims of religious equality and freedom. Theres actually a practicing muslum in my class for graduation. Hes given a pass out of class at the proper times so he can pray in silence and during tests he just does it in class right there. The common consensus is "I don't give a shit" Its like America is Team liquid and the church is another poster. Its been around for so long and contributed so much (and done great sins as well) that the mods put him higher then the newer people.
You have an example of a school allowing a student to practice his religion, which is legal and in fact necessary. Any student in a public school may legally be accommodated for their religion. The law is designed to prevent religious persecution, which means both you cannot prevent a student from practicing a religion and you cannot promote a religion. Reading a prayer out loud at a graduation is promoting a religion and illegal.
Edit: Sorta fixed some weird nested quote issues
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