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On May 27 2011 14:19 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Okay so what if a Muslim student was in the graduation class?
Ah, you beat me too it. I live in an area of Kansas that is fastly becoming suburban, but the rural, bible-belt mindset is slow to leave. I'm not saying that I'm the only liberal in my school, but we could all fit in the bed of a truck.
A few years ago, someone start a FCA club up, a Fellowship of Christian Athletes group that would meet and pray before school. My first thought? 'Hey, that's pretty cool.' I had absolutely no problem with it. Even on days when we would have late arrival (school started two hours later than normal) they would bring in a youth pastor and pray together. I rolled my eyes and kept walking by.
Then they started suggesting we should have in-school prayer, as in between classes. I agreed. As long as they brough in an Imam for me to pray with. Being white and an openly admitted atheist, they all looked perplexed. They thought I was joking and couldn't understand why I would say that. Like the thought of including other religions had never occured to them.
So I'm all for bringing religion into school. Just as soon as I'm allowed to, in the middle of class, get down on my knees and pray to Mecca.
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Really can't defend these peoples actions.
But what kind of atheist picks on religious people, don't you remember they're crazy? :S
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On May 27 2011 14:27 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:25 mastergriggy wrote:
I don't go out of my way to call out atheists because I think thy are wrong, what right does that give this kid to do that to a tradition. Really? It's the Bill of FUCKING Rights. That's what enables him to do that.
+1
lol, it's unconstitutional. It's amazing how some of the responses, do nothing more than pay lip service to this very basic, yet critically important point. It could be a Christian doing it to a Muslim, a Jew to a Hindu, a Mormon to a Scientologist. In a way, the religion (or absence of one) is a skin cover to the issue at hand.
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On May 27 2011 14:22 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:20 sermokala wrote:On May 27 2011 13:50 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 27 2011 13:48 aguy38 wrote:On May 27 2011 13:47 EmeraldSparks wrote:
Everybody involved should probably be sent to a gulag. including the kid? Well, he can go if he wants to. I heard atheists are big on gulags. This post has very great depth and I admire it. On May 27 2011 14:14 Zzoram wrote:
I'm sure all of America would be outraged if a public school with a sizable Muslim population held prayers to Allah but not Christian prayers during graduation. Christianity holds an undoubtedly priviliged place in America despite claims of religious equality and freedom. Theres actually a practicing muslum in my class for graduation. Hes given a pass out of class at the proper times so he can pray in silence and during tests he just does it in class right there. The common consensus is "I don't give a shit" Its like America is Team liquid and the church is another poster. Its been around for so long and contributed so much (and done great sins as well) that the mods put him higher then the newer people. But really Guys its the deep south and the kid was being a smart ass the way he simply "demanded" that the prayer be canceled. They still have chaplains in the military and they still pray in the sport house's before each game in the successful schools. I'm not saying anything about the situation was right but the Person who wrote this (lets be honest) blog is horribly biased and acts like the majority of america is Christian still. Which it frankly isn't. TLDR: I don't want to study evolution and have to have that shuved down my throat to get a good grade in that class but I keep my mouth shut and get though it and don't call the ALCU. The Muslim student is doing a personal prayer, that's fine. The school could've had a moment of silence for all the students to do their own personal prayers. When an individual representing the school does an official prayer on behalf of the school, that's where the violation of the constitutional right occurs. Evolution is science, it's ok to teach science in science class. Prayers are religion, it's not ok for the school to have an official prayer since government isn't allowed to favor one religion over another.
I find the theory of evolution as tought by the science elite to be personally offensive and strongly against my personal views. I find all the "science" behind it to be strongly painted against my religious views. Its the same as if the bible was made into the curriculum for English sense it was the first mass printed book.
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On May 27 2011 14:30 WGarrison wrote:
You have an example of a school allowing a student to practice his religion, which is legal and in fact necessary. Any student in a public school may legally be accommodated for their religion. The law is designed to prevent religious persecution, which means both you cannot prevent a student from practicing a religion and you cannot promote a religion. Reading a prayer out loud at a graduation is promoting a religion and illegal.
I don't know what you did but you somehow attributed that 2nd paragraph as a quote of mine when I didn't write it.
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I wonder if tomorrow we're going to get a news story saying "children defy anti-prayer law by praying out loud in school, are given detention" and then we argue over whether its right to punish someone for their opposition of a perceived unjust law.
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On May 27 2011 14:32 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:22 Zzoram wrote:On May 27 2011 14:20 sermokala wrote:On May 27 2011 13:50 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 27 2011 13:48 aguy38 wrote:On May 27 2011 13:47 EmeraldSparks wrote:
Everybody involved should probably be sent to a gulag. including the kid? Well, he can go if he wants to. I heard atheists are big on gulags. This post has very great depth and I admire it. On May 27 2011 14:14 Zzoram wrote:
I'm sure all of America would be outraged if a public school with a sizable Muslim population held prayers to Allah but not Christian prayers during graduation. Christianity holds an undoubtedly priviliged place in America despite claims of religious equality and freedom. Theres actually a practicing muslum in my class for graduation. Hes given a pass out of class at the proper times so he can pray in silence and during tests he just does it in class right there. The common consensus is "I don't give a shit" Its like America is Team liquid and the church is another poster. Its been around for so long and contributed so much (and done great sins as well) that the mods put him higher then the newer people. But really Guys its the deep south and the kid was being a smart ass the way he simply "demanded" that the prayer be canceled. They still have chaplains in the military and they still pray in the sport house's before each game in the successful schools. I'm not saying anything about the situation was right but the Person who wrote this (lets be honest) blog is horribly biased and acts like the majority of america is Christian still. Which it frankly isn't. TLDR: I don't want to study evolution and have to have that shuved down my throat to get a good grade in that class but I keep my mouth shut and get though it and don't call the ALCU. The Muslim student is doing a personal prayer, that's fine. The school could've had a moment of silence for all the students to do their own personal prayers. When an individual representing the school does an official prayer on behalf of the school, that's where the violation of the constitutional right occurs. Evolution is science, it's ok to teach science in science class. Prayers are religion, it's not ok for the school to have an official prayer since government isn't allowed to favor one religion over another. I find the theory of evolution as tought by the science elite to be personally offensive and strongly against my personal views. I find all the "science" behind it to be strongly painted against my religious views. Its the same as if the bible was made into the curriculum for English sense it was the first mass printed book.
Except that you would probably look at its history, the way it was written. How events influenced its structure, the tone etc.
You would not get up and tell everyone to believe everything in the book.
As for evolution, there is evidence to back it up. The whole idea is for it to be examined and questioned. The foundation of science is questioning, hence if you do an science subject you are expected to question things. If you don't like it, don't go to science class.
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If I were him, I would have just stayed silent. Punishment far outweighs the benefits... Is he trying to be a martyr or something?
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Will there be consequences for schools that break the law and have prayers? Or do states that are more religious just overlook those that flout the regulations in the name of religion.
Pretty sure this isn't the first time it's happened.
And as for those saying he should have just shut up and gone with it, yeah, he could have done that, but he'd just be another sheep that can't tell the difference between legal and illegal. Standing up, and recognizing that something is wrong is the first step in changing it. Just because you won't stand up, doesn't mean you can criticize those that will. (p.s. I'm a coward too)
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On May 27 2011 14:34 meegrean wrote:
If I were him, I would have just stayed silent. Punishment far outweighs the benefits... Is he trying to be a martyr or something?
If I were a betting man I would put money on it that he did it for attention and it just spiraled out of control to what it is now.
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On May 27 2011 14:32 TheLink wrote:
I wonder if tomorrow we're going to get a news story saying "children defy anti-prayer law by praying out loud in school, are given detention" and then we argue over whether its right to punish someone for their opposition of a perceived unjust law.
There is no anti-praying law and students can pray on their own all they want.
When a representative of the school engages the whole graduating class in prayer, it becomes a government prayer and therefore is illegal.
If they just held a moment of silence and people prayed on their own, that's fine and what SHOULD happen, but doesn't because Christianity is a privileged religion.
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[/QUOTE]
yep you are the only one in teamliquid who is smart enough to give a measured response
gold star for you[/QUOTE]
I never said that, but thanks for proving my point.
On May 27 2011 14:27 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Okay do you think they would have allowed a Muslim Prayer to be read at graduation if there was Muslim students? What about Hindu students? How many unbiased news stories would be covering the same exact graduation?
Let me reiterate the part I thought was biased for you: Article writer assumes that the motives of atheist kid are a, b, and c. In all likelihood, it's none of those motives. I don't think it's one of those motives. Am I criticizing the kid, no. Am I criticizing the fact that there is a clear double standard, yes.
On May 27 2011 14:27 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:25 mastergriggy wrote:
I don't go out of my way to call out atheists because I think thy are wrong, what right does that give this kid to do that to a tradition. Really? It's the Bill of FUCKING Rights. That's what enables him to do that.
Maybe you can explain to me where in the bill of rights the school has to cancel the tradition because some guy opposes it? I mean god forbid it goes both ways.
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On May 27 2011 14:23 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:56 travis wrote:On May 27 2011 13:53 Diglett wrote:
the article is incredibly biased so it's hard to make a good opinion. but all i see a smartass kid trying to troll the school and from that, the whole community screwed him. stupid kid, stupid school, teachers, parents, etc. Could you explain where the bias in the article is? On May 27 2011 13:55 ghrur wrote:
You couldn't have quoted a less inflammatory article in a less obviously inflammatory way? Look, I no way condone the actions of the community, but I really hate this article being so heavily biased towards atheists (despite being one.) I'd rather call the community stupid and crazy rather than turn it into a Christian vs Atheists argument. you too  Of course. It takes the actions of a few and generalizes across to the whole. Specifically, it takes the actions of one southern community and generalizes it to all Christians. It also takes the actions of a few atheists as proof of the whole atheistic community. And it does this without reliable statistics that allow you to do so. Example: Show nested quote +There's the ugly reality of anti-atheist bigotry and discrimination across the country -- especially in high schools. According to JT Eberhard, high school specialist for the Secular Student Alliance, "In Alabama, Auburn High School is refusing to allow an SSA affiliate. In Cranston, Rhode Island, a public school is facing an ACLU suit for refusing to take down a sectarian prayer [a banner posted in the school gym]. In Texas we had a student who was told he could have a secular club if he called it a philosophy club and didn't affiliate with the SSA. The list of similar situations is a mile long and these are only the ones I've become aware of in my first four and a half months on the job. The Fowler incident is much closer to being the norm than the exception."
There are rants about religion to be had here as well. There's the level of not only hostility, but panicked hostility, when entrenched religion gets its privileged status threatened. There's the way that religion relies on social consensus to perpetuate itself -- and how, when that consensus is threatened, it commonly reacts by smacking down dissent and expelling dissenters. The first paragraph claims that this is the norm with three examples. Then it transitions to the second paragraph quoted to rant about religion. This is specifically hostile against religion, blaming them as the cause, and therefore the antithesis (atheism) is to be supported. It also insinuates that the norm for religious communities is to harass atheists or have an "anti-atheist bigotry." Really, that's far from the truth. The article also uses diction to stress the connection between the community and Christians in general. Note: Show nested quote + When a high school atheist tried to stop prayer at his graduation, he was harassed and kicked out of his house See, instead of high school student, it's high school atheist right before prayer. At his graduation means that the school is the Christian entity. Further support for this claim? Stressing atheism with Fowler. School with Christian. They = school. Graduation prayer = school. Prayer = Religious, Christian thing to do. School = Christian. Damon = atheist. Making it clear. My god, this quote even juxtaposes the communities by basically saying atheist community = good, Damon's community = Christians = bad. Once again, juxtaposing atheist community with Christian community (because one stepped up to the plate, who didn't? Christian community is implied). So basically, the article is subtly (well, not really) arguing the superiority of the Atheist community to the Christian community. Oh, and of course, there's loaded language here too to specifically cause hatred against the community in question. Ostracized, demeaned, threatened, pilloried, hounded, etc. then connecting those actions back to Christians using the things I said above. Can you really say this isn't biased against the Christian community? Just take a look at the condescending tone it uses too. Implication: Christians ignore the law. Show nested quote +It's a law and a Constitution that protects everybody, not just atheists. If you wouldn't want to be subjected to a government-sponsored Buddhist prayer, you ought not to be subjecting others to a government-sponsored Christian prayer.
Okay. I hope that's clear Implication: I know the law; I know the Constitution. You don't because you're a Christian. Let me explain it for you. Show nested quote +In other words: Because the majority of students want an unconstitutional prayer at their graduation, therefore they're in the right. Implication: Christians think majority is always right, despite it being unconstitutional. Show nested quote +There's the lack of understanding in the United States about fundamental civics: the all-too-common belief that "majority rules" in every situation, and the all-too-common failure to comprehend the principle that the minority has basic civil rights. Implication: Christians across the US don't understand fundamental civics. Show nested quote +And of course -- duh -- there's separation of church and state. There's the principle that a public school should not be sponsoring prayers at graduations. What with that being a government establishment of religion and all, and thus being -- oh, what's that word? -- unconstitutional. Implication: Christians don't understand separation of Church and State. Yup. I would be fine reporting the event, but making a whole deal of Christians are bad vs Atheists are good just annoys the crap out of me.
lmao sick, that was ridiculously thorough
I don't agree with everything you say here but there is definitely enough to prove bias
But anyways I guess I just have a tendency to overlook bias when it isn't manipulating the facts
oh lol you are quoting the OP huh
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Oh, just thought up a good comparison.
I went to a predominantly Muslim school (I'm agnostic), and during school events/graduation dinner I was forced to eat halal meat as nothing else was provided. Should I have declared that this was illegal and forced my own graduation dinner to be cancelled? I mean I'm against animal cruelty and the whole slit the throat and let them bleed out thing.
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On May 27 2011 14:32 sermokala wrote:I find the theory of evolution as tought by the science elite to be personally offensive and strongly against my personal views. I find all the "science" behind it to be strongly painted against my religious views. Its the same as if the bible was made into the curriculum for English sense it was the first mass printed book.
What the hell? Please tell us you are trolling. Please. If not, that is so sad.
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On May 27 2011 14:25 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:24 Spicy Pepper wrote:
So as long as it's the religion of the majority, it's unwise for the minority to speak up about an unconstitutional practice according to some of you. Let's defend the 1st Amendment when it just suits us. that's good advice some people are so dumb that they shouldn't have first amendment rights unfortunately the law doesn't work that way
Youre unbelievable man. If people followed that advice, slavery would never have been abolished, the civil rights act would never have gone through, etc. If people just decided to hide in their corners when a strong threat passed overhead, nothing would ever change for the better. It might be "smarter" to sit back, renounce your beliefs, and go along your merry way, but if no one fights for what they believe in, how do we progress as a society?
Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:25 Supamang wrote:On May 27 2011 14:16 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 27 2011 14:15 Jswizzy wrote:On May 27 2011 14:05 StrangrDangr wrote:
If someone is an atheist, then they believe that praying is in fact nothing and is just a waste of time. So I am curious what is so wrong with having to sit and have 3 minutes of your time wasted if it comforts and appeases the vast majority of your friends and community. What is the possible downside? It seems selfish to put a few minutes of your time over the wishes of others. Clearly you are only looking at this from your own perspective. As an atheist I see prayer as beyond useless and the God that is being prayed to as a motivation for all kinds of actions that I don't agree with. People use God to justify all kinds of horrible crimes and actions why would I want to be forced to give into that and just go along with it? I don't care if you prayer but I wouldn't salute a fascist and I don't want to pray to a God who is used as a justification for evil. people use "its the right thing to do" as a justification or a lot of bad things or "the general welfare" or "the greater good" or "the well-being of humanity" are you now going to shun all the people who believe in these things Yeah yeah, a lot of shit happens when some shit is loosely connected to the matter at hand whatever man. We are not talking about "a lot of bad things." We are talking about the situation at hand, namely the kid being ostracized and threatened based on his beliefs and based on his desire to stand up for his own constitutional rights. Dont bring up some random bullshit about "the general welfare" or "the greater good" being used for bad things because that has nothing to do with this case (plus youre starting to tread dangerously close to "socialism" arguments). Stick to the points. the person i was talking to was actually talking about "all kinds of horrible crimes and actions" and somehow he started talking about fascism also but apparently i'm now the one derailing the conversation with random bullshit how exciting
Fair enough. He did go off topic. But wait, somehow just because someone else does it means its ok for you to do it? Hmmm, im starting to see a pattern in your thought process here
Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:25 mastergriggy wrote:
To sum up my rant, the article writer is a biased idiot, the kid didn't deserve to have been treated that way, and Christians, Atheists, and everyone on Team Liquid is likely to over react about this. yep you are the only one in teamliquid who is smart enough to give a measured response gold star for you
ridiculous
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On May 27 2011 14:30 Natsumar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:19 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Okay so what if a Muslim student was in the graduation class? Ah, you beat me too it. I live in an area of Kansas that is fastly becoming suburban, but the rural, bible-belt mindset is slow to leave. I'm not saying that I'm the only liberal in my school, but we could all fit in the bed of a truck. A few years ago, someone start a FCA club up, a Fellowship of Christian Athletes group that would meet and pray before school. My first thought? 'Hey, that's pretty cool.' I had absolutely no problem with it. Even on days when we would have late arrival (school started two hours later than normal) they would bring in a youth pastor and pray together. I rolled my eyes and kept walking by. Then they started suggesting we should have in-school prayer, as in between classes. I agreed. As long as they brough in an Imam for me to pray with. Being white and an openly admitted atheist, they all looked perplexed. They thought I was joking and couldn't understand why I would say that. Like the thought of including other religions had never occured to them. So I'm all for bringing religion into school. Just as soon as I'm allowed to, in the middle of class, get down on my knees and pray to Mecca.
Because your white and an atheist why would you need an Imam? That Youth pastor was probably asked to do it and he came willingly whats wrong with that? As long as hes a visitor and not an employee of the state its perfectly fine.
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On May 27 2011 14:23 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:56 travis wrote:On May 27 2011 13:53 Diglett wrote:
the article is incredibly biased so it's hard to make a good opinion. but all i see a smartass kid trying to troll the school and from that, the whole community screwed him. stupid kid, stupid school, teachers, parents, etc. Could you explain where the bias in the article is? On May 27 2011 13:55 ghrur wrote:
You couldn't have quoted a less inflammatory article in a less obviously inflammatory way? Look, I no way condone the actions of the community, but I really hate this article being so heavily biased towards atheists (despite being one.) I'd rather call the community stupid and crazy rather than turn it into a Christian vs Atheists argument. you too Of course. It takes the actions of a few and generalizes across to the whole. Specifically, it takes the actions of one southern community and generalizes it to all Christians. It also takes the actions of a few atheists as proof of the whole atheistic community. And it does this without reliable statistics that allow you to do so. Example: Show nested quote +There's the ugly reality of anti-atheist bigotry and discrimination across the country -- especially in high schools. According to JT Eberhard, high school specialist for the Secular Student Alliance, "In Alabama, Auburn High School is refusing to allow an SSA affiliate. In Cranston, Rhode Island, a public school is facing an ACLU suit for refusing to take down a sectarian prayer [a banner posted in the school gym]. In Texas we had a student who was told he could have a secular club if he called it a philosophy club and didn't affiliate with the SSA. The list of similar situations is a mile long and these are only the ones I've become aware of in my first four and a half months on the job. The Fowler incident is much closer to being the norm than the exception."
There are rants about religion to be had here as well. There's the level of not only hostility, but panicked hostility, when entrenched religion gets its privileged status threatened. There's the way that religion relies on social consensus to perpetuate itself -- and how, when that consensus is threatened, it commonly reacts by smacking down dissent and expelling dissenters. The first paragraph claims that this is the norm with three examples. Then it transitions to the second paragraph quoted to rant about religion. This is specifically hostile against religion, blaming them as the cause, and therefore the antithesis (atheism) is to be supported. It also insinuates that the norm for religious communities is to harass atheists or have an "anti-atheist bigotry." Really, that's far from the truth. The article also uses diction to stress the connection between the community and Christians in general. Note: Show nested quote + When a high school atheist tried to stop prayer at his graduation, he was harassed and kicked out of his house See, instead of high school student, it's high school atheist right before prayer. At his graduation means that the school is the Christian entity. Further support for this claim? Stressing atheism with Fowler. School with Christian. They = school. Graduation prayer = school. Prayer = Religious, Christian thing to do. School = Christian. Damon = atheist. Making it clear. My god, this quote even juxtaposes the communities by basically saying atheist community = good, Damon's community = Christians = bad. Once again, juxtaposing atheist community with Christian community (because one stepped up to the plate, who didn't? Christian community is implied). So basically, the article is subtly (well, not really) arguing the superiority of the Atheist community to the Christian community. Oh, and of course, there's loaded language here too to specifically cause hatred against the community in question. Ostracized, demeaned, threatened, pilloried, hounded, etc. then connecting those actions back to Christians using the things I said above. Can you really say this isn't biased against the Christian community? Just take a look at the condescending tone it uses too. Implication: Christians ignore the law. Show nested quote +It's a law and a Constitution that protects everybody, not just atheists. If you wouldn't want to be subjected to a government-sponsored Buddhist prayer, you ought not to be subjecting others to a government-sponsored Christian prayer.
Okay. I hope that's clear Implication: I know the law; I know the Constitution. You don't because you're a Christian. Let me explain it for you. Show nested quote +In other words: Because the majority of students want an unconstitutional prayer at their graduation, therefore they're in the right. Implication: Christians think majority is always right, despite it being unconstitutional. Show nested quote +There's the lack of understanding in the United States about fundamental civics: the all-too-common belief that "majority rules" in every situation, and the all-too-common failure to comprehend the principle that the minority has basic civil rights. Implication: Christians across the US don't understand fundamental civics. Show nested quote +And of course -- duh -- there's separation of church and state. There's the principle that a public school should not be sponsoring prayers at graduations. What with that being a government establishment of religion and all, and thus being -- oh, what's that word? -- unconstitutional. Implication: Christians don't understand separation of Church and State. Yup. I would be fine reporting the event, but making a whole deal of Christians are bad vs Atheists are good just annoys the crap out of me.
First of all, let me commend you for your efforts and style. This is exactly the type of constructive posting that leads to healthy debates.
But... you are quoting the OP, not the article. Clearly, as you also so thoroughly shown in your own way, the OP is not unbiased.
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On May 27 2011 14:36 mastergriggy wrote:
yep you are the only one in teamliquid who is smart enough to give a measured response
gold star for you[/QUOTE]
I never said that, but thanks for proving my point.
On May 27 2011 14:27 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Okay do you think they would have allowed a Muslim Prayer to be read at graduation if there was Muslim students? What about Hindu students? How many unbiased news stories would be covering the same exact graduation?
Let me reiterate the part I thought was biased for you: Article writer assumes that the motives of atheist kid are a, b, and c. In all likelihood, it's none of those motives. I don't think it's one of those motives. Am I criticizing the kid, no. Am I criticizing the fact that there is a clear double standard, yes.
On May 27 2011 14:27 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:25 mastergriggy wrote:
I don't go out of my way to call out atheists because I think thy are wrong, what right does that give this kid to do that to a tradition. Really? It's the Bill of FUCKING Rights. That's what enables him to do that.
Maybe you can explain to me where in the bill of rights the school has to cancel the tradition because some guy opposes it? I mean god forbid it goes both ways.
[/QUOTE]
If it's tradition to run red lights would you be mad if someone stood up and said it's illegal?
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And as for those saying he should have just shut up and gone with it, yeah, he could have done that, but he'd just be another sheep that can't tell the difference between legal and illegal. Standing up, and recognizing that something is wrong is the first step in changing it. Just because you won't stand up, doesn't mean you can criticize those that will. (p.s. I'm a coward too)
I don't think it is so much cowardice as it is respecting those around you. Im a vegetarian, I have strong beliefs against eating meat but I don't attempt to stop others who enjoy meat. It is not out of cowardice towards what they may think or say if I tried, but rather I respect that they enjoy meat and that them eating it is not hurting me in anyway. (not the strongest example as in this case their is no law backing me... but whatever)
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