On June 06 2011 09:08 Fourn wrote: The kid did not deserve that, but he is still an asshole.
What kind of dick knowingly ruins a tradition like that? It really does seem like he was just trying to get himself attention and be an asshole. I applaud the previous atheists of that school who didn't try to pull a stunt like this. Prayer at graduation doesn't affect him in anyway and he should just put up with it because (based on atheist beliefs) they're just thinking thoughts in their head to a God that doesn't exist.
He is an ignorant little prick, but that doesn't justify what happened to him. The world would be a much better place if people like him were not in it and the same goes for the people who are treating him like this. If he could have just accepted the fact that there are people in this world with different beliefs then him, then he would be happily living with his parents right now, but insteade had to make a big deal out of nothing.
It isn't like the school was doing a ritual sacrifice at graduation, it was just a helpless little prayer. What is the big fuckin deal?
I find him to be quite courageous. I would knowingly ruin a tradition like that, too, if given the chance, as a matter of integrity. Traditions based on illegal actions should hold no special place in society. Tradition for the sake of tradition has been debunked so many times in this thread I think I'd be wasting my time to honor that with a response.
Prayer at graduation not only affects him, it affects people all over the country. As you continue to endorse illegal behavior, it will grow and more people will have it forced on them.
By the way, I don't see how not allowing school endorsed prayer affects you. You can still pray in silence, no one is stopping you. There are no thought police. Wow, I love how that argument can turn right around on you.
On June 06 2011 09:55 MozzarellaL wrote: Nothing in the OP suggests the prayer was school sponsored, only that the prayer was traditionally held at graduations. What if, in recognition of this tradition, the student council put together the schedule and planning for graduation (as may be the case in many high schools across the country), and the student council implemented a student-led prayer?
It is entirely student-initiated and student-led. Is is unconstitutional? The school district has nothing to do with it, nor the superintendent, nor the principal, nor the teachers. They could all be atheists. There's no facts in the OP to suggest this wasn't the case.
http://www.nonprophetsradio.com/nonprophets.xml According to an online radio show discussion on "The Non Prophets" with Damon Fowler (he is introduced 3mins in) the school originally did cave into pressure with a "moment of silence" to replace prayer, but instead decided to go ahead with the prayer anyways. There was discussion on the school's graduation Facebook page about whether or not they were going to do the Lord's Prayer after the controversy and if you see the graduation ceremony there clearly is a Lord's Prayer with Jesus being mentioned. It is called a "moment of silence" but it definitely is not.
Also according to lawyers they talked to it doesn't matter if students do it. It is at a school sponsored event and the student speakers are mouthpieces for the school. My example would be if a student used the morning announcements to do a morning prayer, if the school staff had nothing to do with it the school should still be held responsible if they allow it.
You do realize that's all just some lawyer mumbo jumbo, fact that it will be treated as sponsored because they used some shit they already had doesn't mean that you as an independent individual can't see that it has nothing to do with funds. Fact that it's illegal purely because of some interpretable bs, doesn't mean it's morally wrong.
The consistent and incorrect use of the word 'illegal' rankles me more than this guy's treatment at the hands of his neighbors. It isn't fucking illegal. It isn't a fucking crime, nor are there punishable fines for a school to institute a school prayer, so stop saying that it is illegal.
On June 07 2011 00:06 MozzarellaL wrote: The consistent and incorrect use of the word 'illegal' rankles me more than this guy's treatment at the hands of his neighbors. It isn't fucking illegal. It isn't a fucking crime, nor are there punishable fines for a school to institute a school prayer, so stop saying that it is illegal.
Yes, it is illegal. It is a violation of the constitution. The supreme court has been very clear about this. The normal thing for the court to do in this case is issue an injunction requiring that the practice be stopped. They don't normally issue fines. But if you refuse to obey the injunction there are very much fines and other punishments that can be used. In fact, the idea that one branch of government would willfully ignore the rulings of the supreme court is potentially worse than a normal crime, since it calls into question the reliability of the government itself. In some ways it's more equivalent to a coup than a normal crime.
On June 07 2011 00:06 MozzarellaL wrote: The consistent and incorrect use of the word 'illegal' rankles me more than this guy's treatment at the hands of his neighbors. It isn't fucking illegal. It isn't a fucking crime, nor are there punishable fines for a school to institute a school prayer, so stop saying that it is illegal.
And listening to the discussion there are schools that do go to court over this issue and are found to be violating the law. Don't know the cases specifically at the moment, but if you're really questioning whether they exist I'm sure I could find them. On the other hand if you think it shouldn't be illegal well that's another discussion, though one that has been repeated in this thread.
An absolutely shameful response from his community. That sort of behavior is entirely unacceptable, no matter what you think on the prayer question.
As for prayer in schools - Constitutionally, you can't have a prayer (even student-led) as a component of a school-sponsored activity (football game, graduation ceremony, etc.). If a group of students wish to gather for themselves and hold a prayer session before, during, or after the event, then that's their right, but even speaking as a believer and a prayerful one at that, prayer has no place in a public school graduation ceremony.
On June 08 2011 05:13 adun12345 wrote: An absolutely shameful response from his community. That sort of behavior is entirely unacceptable, no matter what you think on the prayer question.
As for prayer in schools - Constitutionally, you can't have a prayer (even student-led) as a component of a school-sponsored activity (football game, graduation ceremony, etc.). If a group of students wish to gather for themselves and hold a prayer session before, during, or after the event, then that's their right, but even speaking as a believer and a prayerful one at that, prayer has no place in a public school graduation ceremony.
At first, I misread your first sentence, and thought you wrote "An absolutely shameful response from THIS community".
EPT
