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On May 27 2011 13:52 StrangrDangr wrote:
There has to be more to the parents kicking him out then their is in the article. It said they initially tried to take away his phone and ground him, but then kicked him out, I'm curious what he did to prompt the next step.
This among other things. If he would have gotten some kind of private meeting with the principal or something then the details would have probably been confidential, can't really speak for Louisiana but in Oklahoma it is. That leads me to believe that it is very probable that we aren't getting the full story from this obviously biased article.
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As much as they were wrong for doing all that, the kids being a smartass. I think they are being awful to him, and aren't acting out their faith at all, but he was playing with fire here. Can't you picture that stuck up atheist guy who calls in and complains about something as minor and traditional as a prayer? He probably spends most of his free time trying to get a hold of the president and telling him to stop finishing his speeches with "God bless you, and God bless America".
He's in the south though, so he knew he was playing with fire. This is just another excuse for TL to hate religion and say how much better a world it would be without it. He's an atheist, he's a douche. They are religious, they are douches. If we get rid of either one, we still have douches.
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the constitution is really sort of overrated
despite that, i don't see how believing in it makes you a "smartass"
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On May 27 2011 13:53 Diglett wrote:
the article is incredibly biased so it's hard to make a good opinion. but all i see a smartass kid trying to troll the school and from that, the whole community screwed him. stupid kid, stupid school, teachers, parents, etc.
Could you explain where the bias in the article is?
On May 27 2011 13:55 ghrur wrote:
You couldn't have quoted a less inflammatory article in a less obviously inflammatory way? Look, I no way condone the actions of the community, but I really hate this article being so heavily biased towards atheists (despite being one.) I'd rather call the community stupid and crazy rather than turn it into a Christian vs Atheists argument.
you too 
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He didn't have to pray. He could have just sat there. If you read the second line of the article it makes it sound like he said the majority should be stopped on account of him. Did they overreact to him? Hell yea they did, but at some point he should have had the common sense to just not say anything.
Actually, the majority did. Prayer at school is unconstitutional by law.
http://www.thenewsstar.com/article/20110526/NEWS01/110526023
Although the Supreme Court made it abundantly clear almost two decades ago that public schools cannot include prayers as part of school events, school dstrict officials have persisted with this practice.”
I agree that the original article was biased, and I did a quick search of the high school on Google News. I believe this should be mentioned, from the same article I posted.
However, during the ceremony, before fellow senior Laci Rae Mattice asked the audience to observe a moment of silence, she recited the Lord’s Prayer.
Principal Stacey Pullen said she was unsure if the school or School Board will face legal action. She said Mattice had been instructed not to mention anything religious.
And this
http://www.bastropenterprise.com/features/x2132687894/Student-challenges-prayer-at-Bastrop-graduation
Not only are school officials dropping the prayer from the ceremony, they are being forced to have the programs for the evening’s events reprinted at a cost Pullen said is undetermined at this time.
I'm a Christian, and I must say this guy did the right thing. Prayer shouldn't be at school. You don't jump a kid because he stood up for what is right. You don't ostracize a kid from your community, just because you don't like him.
However, the original article contains some of the atheist ignorant-them-against-righteous-us attitude. It should be noted that this kid can technically be called an "asshole" and "party-pooper." Yeah prayer is against the law, but so is underage drinking, swearing in front of the ladies (in select states), jaywalking, marijuana, and plenty of other things that I dare any of you to say that you have never partaken in. This kid threatened to call the ACLU, forced the programs to be reprinted (and if the programs were of any quality close to our programs, then that shit ain't cheap). But you know what? This kid should've known that this would happen. Yeah you are doing the right thing in the name of the law, but your being an asshole. Ratting out my friends who do drugs or drink underage would be the right thing in the name of the law too. The community is also a bunch of assholes, but the kid definitely had it coming to him, right or wrong, and the original article fails to mention that. Yeah he did the right thing, now he must live with that.
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On May 27 2011 13:54 rycho wrote:
just another horrible thing religion has done to the world
at least a priest didn't rape him and he wasn't killed in a crusade, it could be worse
This is man doing this in the name of religion, not religion itself. Atleast not christianity. Nowhere in the bible does it preach to ostracize and harrass others.
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On May 27 2011 13:56 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:53 Diglett wrote:
the article is incredibly biased so it's hard to make a good opinion. but all i see a smartass kid trying to troll the school and from that, the whole community screwed him. stupid kid, stupid school, teachers, parents, etc. Could you explain where the bias in the article is?
yes. bias towards the student.
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On May 27 2011 13:39 aguy38 wrote:
but at some point he should have had the common sense to just not say anything.
Thomas Paine is rolling over in his grave.
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On May 27 2011 13:43 travis wrote:
This is an example of a spot where a kid used poor decisionmaking due to a lack of wisdom. It's not always the best move to stand up and fight. Sometimes it's better to stand apart as an observer.
It's too bad he's in this situation, It would be nice if he could sue the school for having his information leaked and for this situation occuring.
P.S: It sucks that it had to become an atheist/religious issue. Durrr, atheism good, religion bad! Atheists helped him! Why can't it just be that good compassionate people helped him?
This, this...So much this!
As I see it, there is a kid who opposed a community held view that is technically illegal but widely accepted. He got shunned and then vindicated by another community. Really, it has got nothing to do with religion per se, so going high and mighty about how wonderful atheists are is kinda hypocritical.
I thought atheism was supposed to be a rationalist view. This kid needed help, he got it. Brilliant, but to use it as some grandstanding for atheism is silly.
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On May 27 2011 13:50 Krehlmar wrote:
Religious freedome also means freedome from religion.
In America it reads Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
That does not mean freedom from religion. It means others are protected in their exercise of religion in public.
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On May 27 2011 13:52 Jswizzy wrote:Why should he be forced to pray to a false god? Christians wouldn't like it if they were forced to pray to some pagan god or Allah. Here is a good article on the subject. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46828Anyways if people want to pray on their own time that's there own business but forcing your beliefs on everyone else no cool in my book. It shows a lake of empathy and respect for others.
No one was forcing him to pray. He was pointing out that they can't have an official school sponsored prayer in kinda a dick way. The school should and could have just done the prayer in an "unofficial" way so it was legal and he couldn't bitch/participate.
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On May 27 2011 13:57 Diglett wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:56 travis wrote:On May 27 2011 13:53 Diglett wrote:
the article is incredibly biased so it's hard to make a good opinion. but all i see a smartass kid trying to troll the school and from that, the whole community screwed him. stupid kid, stupid school, teachers, parents, etc. Could you explain where the bias in the article is? yes. bias towards the student.
You need to elaborate. All I saw was a list of facts. In order to say the article is biased you would need opposing facts that back the decision-making of the school/parents/other kids.
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On May 27 2011 13:50 Krehlmar wrote:
Either you're trolling, in which case I'd banned you for a month if I was a mod but I'm not, or you're serious in which that's even worse.
EDIT: Not backseat modding here, just saying what consequence I'd bestow upon him because of his attitude towards basic human rights.
(Atleast in the EU, Article 6 rights to private life.
I hope YOU'RE trolling. You NEED to be sensitive to your sorroundings. He was disrespectful, and if he wants to prove that Atheists are moral, than he needs to set an example for his community, which is largely unexposed to atheism. The foundation of morality is respect for others, and he should know that.
Besides if religion is a sensitive thing in his area, leave it alone. The south is largely African American, if he started shouting racial obscenities, he would get the same reaction. If its sensitive to the area, just leave it be.
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Ah, didn't know the bit about the Lord's prayer. That does change things a bit. I thought he was just a local tradition along the lines of may your futures be bright and happy etc etc....
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United States2822 Posts
On May 27 2011 13:56 vindKtiv wrote:Show nested quote +
He didn't have to pray. He could have just sat there. If you read the second line of the article it makes it sound like he said the majority should be stopped on account of him. Did they overreact to him? Hell yea they did, but at some point he should have had the common sense to just not say anything.
Actually, the majority did. Prayer at school is unconstitutional by law. http://www.thenewsstar.com/article/20110526/NEWS01/110526023Show nested quote +Although the Supreme Court made it abundantly clear almost two decades ago that public schools cannot include prayers as part of school events, school dstrict officials have persisted with this practice.” I agree that the original article was biased, and I did a quick search of the high school on Google News. I believe this should be mentioned, from the same article I posted. Show nested quote +However, during the ceremony, before fellow senior Laci Rae Mattice asked the audience to observe a moment of silence, she recited the Lord’s Prayer.
Principal Stacey Pullen said she was unsure if the school or School Board will face legal action. She said Mattice had been instructed not to mention anything religious. And this http://www.bastropenterprise.com/features/x2132687894/Student-challenges-prayer-at-Bastrop-graduationShow nested quote +
Not only are school officials dropping the prayer from the ceremony, they are being forced to have the programs for the evening’s events reprinted at a cost Pullen said is undetermined at this time.
I'm a Christian, and I must say this guy did the right thing. Prayer shouldn't be at school. You don't jump a kid because he stood up for what is right. You don't ostracize a kid from your community, just because you don't like him. However, the original article contains some of the atheist ignorant-them-against-righteous-us attitude. It should be noted that this kid can technically be called an "asshole" and "party-pooper." Yeah prayer is against the law, but so is underage drinking, swearing in front of the ladies (in select states), jaywalking, marijuana, and plenty of other things that I dare any of you to say that you have never partaken in. This kid threatened to call the ACLU, forced the programs to be reprinted (and if the programs were of any quality close to our programs, then that shit ain't cheap). But you know what? This kid should've known that this would happen. Yeah you are doing the right thing in the name of the law, but your being an asshole. Ratting out my friends who do drugs or drink underage would be the right thing in the name of the law too. The community is also a bunch of assholes, but the kid definitely had it coming to him, right or wrong, and the original article fails to mention that. Yeah he did the right thing, now he must live with that.
Thanks for the additional links on the situation. I've edited them into the OP, if that's okay with you.
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If he was intelligent enough to recognize a violation of the establishment clause, he was intelligent to understand the sort of backlash he would receive from the community. He did nothing wrong, but if he didn't want this to happen to him, he shouldn't have acted the way he did.
That being said, if the record of events is true, I would say extremism is just as scary in America as it is in the Middle-East. Such a community/parental reaction is not justifiable on any basis. The Supreme Court has remained firm in its stance on pray in public schools--majority opinion does not make illegal activities legal.
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On May 27 2011 13:57 Spicy Pepper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:39 aguy38 wrote:
but at some point he should have had the common sense to just not say anything. Thomas Paine is rolling over in his grave.
Tomas Paine wasn't the smartest man in the world. Look at his time in France.
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lol. being in someone else's shoes. thats pretty much the cure.
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On May 27 2011 13:49 travis wrote:
I think it's likely the case that it was poor decisionmaking on his part.. but it largely has to do with what kind of person he is and what kind of character he has. If he is willing to make sacrifices for what he believes in and is willing to handle those consequences then maybe he is ok with what happened. But being that he is still so young, odds are he just didn't have enough foresight.
Addressing the young man's foresight, I'm not so sure it's safe to say he didn't have enough really. The government sponsored payer issue is one, but the attraction of this story is just that the community behaved so disproportionately. Certainly it is fair for community members to be upset about the loss of a tradition (though I highly doubt graduation prayer was something particularly nostalgic for many of them), however what sort of actions would a reasonable person expect from an angered community? Gossip mostly I would think. Certainly some outspoken peers; young people speak out of line. I don't think a reasonable person would ever really expect to be 'ostracized' though.
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Wow. Sounds like pretty much everyone involved in this was acting poorly.
I love the theme of the article - atheists good, theists bad. The whole way through it is slanted towards Fowler. It is written expressly to make you on his side. Meh. Poor and biased writing, really. And I don't agree with his actions anyways. Seperation of Church and State is guaranteed by the Constitution, nobody is arguing that. But I really disagree with him trying to force them to cancel the traditional prayer. And he was trying to force them to cancel it, regardless of what the atricle says - threatening to call in the ACLU, which the article specifically says it already in a lawsuit against another school for refusing to change their own religious traditions? That's a threat, a demand to cancel the prayer. I went to a university with plenty of religious traditions, and I knew a lot of atheists who joined in them simply as a cultural exercise, enjoying the traditions which we are left from religion. It wasn't trying to force them to convert, just as this prayer wasn't trying to force Fowler to. He had the option of opting out. Instead he tried to force everyone to follow his beliefs, tried to force his own views on the majority. Is it any wonder people were angry?
Having said that, the reaction was shockingly overboard. He has the right to his views, even if I think he acted like an idiot in the first place. Hounding him, attacking him, threats of bodily violence? It's sad people think that is an acceptable way to act, even if he was attacking something dear to them. He is being bullied, and from the sound of it one teacher at least doesn't really care. Still, his parents are acting the worst in this. Throwing him out for standing up against something he disagrees with? Wow. I hope that if my kids stand up for something I don't agree with I can at least understand their position.
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