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On May 10 2011 17:10 GertHeart wrote:
I openly support gay people o.o; I'm a guy, and straight. It's stupid not to support gay people.
Advantages to supporting gay people.
1.) They date guys, leaving more girls for you.
2.) Having gay friends girls tend to like you more easily knowing you aren't a homophobe.
3.) See rule 1.) and 2.)
That's kind of a narrow view of the subject. There are plenty of homosexual females (I'm not talking about the ones in porn)as well, although this thread doesn't seem to touch on that so much especially with that particular youtube video that was linked.
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On May 10 2011 16:00 Halcyondaze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 15:38 acker wrote:On May 10 2011 15:32 Halcyondaze wrote:
If you seriously think Evangelicals as a whole are in favor of this you are more closed minded than you claim Evangelicals to be.
I'm sorry for whatever christian, or maybe the media, has led you to feel this way. Reason he feels that way is because some idiot evangelical group from over here helped convince a few Uguandan congressmen that such a bill was a good idea. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/world/africa/04uganda.html That is the reason why I said "in a favor of this as a whole". Blaming Evangelicals is like blaming Islam for 9/11. If not even a smaller %
You're talking about a country where almost half the populace thinks gay marriage sends people to hell*. I'm not sure that "radical evangelical" can cover that many people.
Anti-gay people aren't splinter groups, they're endemic.
*Well, "is a sin" is more accurate.
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On May 10 2011 17:15 Halcyondaze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 17:05 matjlav wrote:
Blah. I just don't get homophobia at all. Even when I was under 10 years old and had no idea I might be gay, I was still really bewildered when I found out that Christians were supposed to be against gay people. That may have just been a result of me drawing connections between that situation and the anti-racism education everyone my age received in elementary school, but I just cannot relate to this apparently universal urge to marginalize and hate certain groups of people against all evidence.
Bah, people are dumb, and it seems so hopeless to bother trying to change them. Saying Christians are against gay people is a very vague statement. I am a christian and in my opinion on the homosexual community is that they are sinning, just like I do everyday when I lie, steal, take God's name in vain, and a vast number of things. I do not look down upon homosexuals at all, just like I don't look down on somebody who I see lie. I have gay friends, and they know I oppose their beliefs, but I do not claim they are going to hell, or are a bad person for who am I to judge? In my opinion God will judge us all on our sins and just as he says no sin is greater than another. I try my best to love all people, but when I don't, and I "hate" someone, I feel I have sinned. Sin is something that everybody thinks Christians look upon as if they never see it, or experience it. But Christians that I associate with, and the way I believe it is that Christians sin just as much as non-Christians, but we do our best to repent for them and show others that God can take those sins and completely take them away from you.
Yeah, I know all of your semantics now, but I'm talking from the perspective of how I was raised and how I perceived these things when I was growing up and being indoctrinated. Regardless, the idea of seeing homosexuality as wrong or dangerous or whatever is still completely foreign to me. I just don't get it, and I don't see how anyone could hold that opinion.
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On May 10 2011 16:44 Halcyondaze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 16:37 KwarK wrote:On May 10 2011 16:23 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 16:19 Mitchlew wrote:
Interesting how uganda has so many problems yet they focus on something that isn't even a problem. Where can I find a legitimate source anyway. Are you sure there isn't some translation fail where they mean pedofiles and not homosexuals. In my eyes that is what I see, a translation issue. He keeps hitting the point of kids and children, so it seems to me that he means pedophile and not homosexual. (But who really knows) Edit: By He I mean the Ugandan in the Maddow Video Nope, that's just a pretty standard bit of homophobic propaganda. I agree that it is, in the West. Africa is a different world, and while he may be just another idiot trying to claim homosexuals as a whole as pedophiles, he also might have a translation issue. I'm just trying not to jump to conclusions
If you read the bill, it specifically mentions homosexual activity with a person under the age of 18 is one of the three ways for it to trigger the death penalty.
It's definitely not a translation error; these people think it is a legitimate issue.
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Signed for great justice! It seriously makes me both sad and angry whenever i hear about this kind of shit...
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On May 10 2011 17:17 matjlav wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 17:15 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 17:05 matjlav wrote:
Blah. I just don't get homophobia at all. Even when I was under 10 years old and had no idea I might be gay, I was still really bewildered when I found out that Christians were supposed to be against gay people. That may have just been a result of me drawing connections between that situation and the anti-racism education everyone my age received in elementary school, but I just cannot relate to this apparently universal urge to marginalize and hate certain groups of people against all evidence.
Bah, people are dumb, and it seems so hopeless to bother trying to change them. Saying Christians are against gay people is a very vague statement. I am a christian and in my opinion on the homosexual community is that they are sinning, just like I do everyday when I lie, steal, take God's name in vain, and a vast number of things. I do not look down upon homosexuals at all, just like I don't look down on somebody who I see lie. I have gay friends, and they know I oppose their beliefs, but I do not claim they are going to hell, or are a bad person for who am I to judge? In my opinion God will judge us all on our sins and just as he says no sin is greater than another. I try my best to love all people, but when I don't, and I "hate" someone, I feel I have sinned. Sin is something that everybody thinks Christians look upon as if they never see it, or experience it. But Christians that I associate with, and the way I believe it is that Christians sin just as much as non-Christians, but we do our best to repent for them and show others that God can take those sins and completely take them away from you. Yeah, I know that now, but I'm talking from the perspective of how I was raised and how I perceived these things when I was growing up and being indoctrinated.
Ah, I see.
Sorry for the rant, lol. Just something I am passionate about.
Nowadays Christians have a bad reputation, especially on the internet and the media. I just want to state my way of thinking so people at least know some Christians aren't bigots
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On May 10 2011 17:04 Halcyondaze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 16:58 Omnipresent wrote:On May 10 2011 16:44 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 16:37 KwarK wrote:On May 10 2011 16:23 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 16:19 Mitchlew wrote:
Interesting how uganda has so many problems yet they focus on something that isn't even a problem. Where can I find a legitimate source anyway. Are you sure there isn't some translation fail where they mean pedofiles and not homosexuals. In my eyes that is what I see, a translation issue. He keeps hitting the point of kids and children, so it seems to me that he means pedophile and not homosexual. (But who really knows) Edit: By He I mean the Ugandan in the Maddow Video Nope, that's just a pretty standard bit of homophobic propaganda. I agree that it is, in the West. Africa is a different world, and while he may be just another idiot trying to claim homosexuals as a whole as pedophiles, he also might have a translation issue. I'm just trying not to jump to conclusions You're really going out of your way to defend the people proposing this bill. First, it's not about HIV. They don't talk about HIV when defending the bill. This is a peripheral issue. Secondly, this isn't 1900. The people proposing this bill have access to the same information we do. Uganda is a very poor country, but Bhatti and others have received material support from prominent American politicians and Christian leaders. They're propagating the same homophobic lies and misrepresentations we hear from far right figures in the US and Europe. This isn't happening in a vacuum. The whole homosexual=pedophile idea has been a cornerstone of anti-gay movements for a long time. Bhatti is tapping into that narrative. I understand wanting to take somewhat of a cultural relativistic approach to a lot of international issue, but the killing or long-term imprisonment of innocent homosexuals isn't one of them. That's especially true when such a practice is being sponsored by westerners. What I am doing is going out of my way to break single-mindedness. I have not supported this bill in any way in any of my posts.
I didn't say you supported the bill.
While I'm usually on the side of "breaking single-mindedness," this bill is a pretty cut-and-dry case of homophobic bigotry of the worst kind. The major influences in creating this bill are clear, many of which are western donors. There are a lot of differences between Africa and other regions, but it's not a world apart. We live in a global system. Nothing happens in a vacuum anymore (or ever, depending how you look at it).
The bill has one purpose - to imprison or execute homosexuals in Uganda. Its supporters use a variety of scare tactics to defend (including "protect the children"), but it has been proposed for to marginalize or kill an entire subset of Ugandan society.
It's also important to note that Uganda is already a very tense place for homosexuals. They face a serious threat of violence already. This bill simply gives that violence the authority of the State.
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Keep out of other countries affairs IMO , let them sort out their own business.
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On May 10 2011 17:19 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 16:44 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 16:37 KwarK wrote:On May 10 2011 16:23 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 16:19 Mitchlew wrote:
Interesting how uganda has so many problems yet they focus on something that isn't even a problem. Where can I find a legitimate source anyway. Are you sure there isn't some translation fail where they mean pedofiles and not homosexuals. In my eyes that is what I see, a translation issue. He keeps hitting the point of kids and children, so it seems to me that he means pedophile and not homosexual. (But who really knows) Edit: By He I mean the Ugandan in the Maddow Video Nope, that's just a pretty standard bit of homophobic propaganda. I agree that it is, in the West. Africa is a different world, and while he may be just another idiot trying to claim homosexuals as a whole as pedophiles, he also might have a translation issue. I'm just trying not to jump to conclusions If you read the bill, it specifically mentions homosexual activity with a person under the age of 18 is one of the three ways for it to trigger the death penalty. It's definitely not a translation error; these people think it is a legitimate issue.
The Translation error was in relation to the Maddow Video and the manner of which the interviewee was speaking not to the bill itself.
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On May 10 2011 17:21 Halcyondaze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 17:19 dcemuser wrote:On May 10 2011 16:44 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 16:37 KwarK wrote:On May 10 2011 16:23 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 16:19 Mitchlew wrote:
Interesting how uganda has so many problems yet they focus on something that isn't even a problem. Where can I find a legitimate source anyway. Are you sure there isn't some translation fail where they mean pedofiles and not homosexuals. In my eyes that is what I see, a translation issue. He keeps hitting the point of kids and children, so it seems to me that he means pedophile and not homosexual. (But who really knows) Edit: By He I mean the Ugandan in the Maddow Video Nope, that's just a pretty standard bit of homophobic propaganda. I agree that it is, in the West. Africa is a different world, and while he may be just another idiot trying to claim homosexuals as a whole as pedophiles, he also might have a translation issue. I'm just trying not to jump to conclusions If you read the bill, it specifically mentions homosexual activity with a person under the age of 18 is one of the three ways for it to trigger the death penalty. It's definitely not a translation error; these people think it is a legitimate issue. The Translation error was in relation to the Maddow Video and the manner of which the interviewee was speaking not to the bill itself.
Obviously if the people making the bill thought it was a big enough deal to make it its own part of the law when sexual activities under the age of 18 are already punishable under other laws, a significant portion of the Ugandan culture probably believes that homosexuals are sexual predators.
That's why he asked the question - and he likely isn't the only one who would.
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On May 10 2011 17:20 Halcyondaze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 17:17 matjlav wrote:On May 10 2011 17:15 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 17:05 matjlav wrote:
Blah. I just don't get homophobia at all. Even when I was under 10 years old and had no idea I might be gay, I was still really bewildered when I found out that Christians were supposed to be against gay people. That may have just been a result of me drawing connections between that situation and the anti-racism education everyone my age received in elementary school, but I just cannot relate to this apparently universal urge to marginalize and hate certain groups of people against all evidence.
Bah, people are dumb, and it seems so hopeless to bother trying to change them. Saying Christians are against gay people is a very vague statement. I am a christian and in my opinion on the homosexual community is that they are sinning, just like I do everyday when I lie, steal, take God's name in vain, and a vast number of things. I do not look down upon homosexuals at all, just like I don't look down on somebody who I see lie. I have gay friends, and they know I oppose their beliefs, but I do not claim they are going to hell, or are a bad person for who am I to judge? In my opinion God will judge us all on our sins and just as he says no sin is greater than another. I try my best to love all people, but when I don't, and I "hate" someone, I feel I have sinned. Sin is something that everybody thinks Christians look upon as if they never see it, or experience it. But Christians that I associate with, and the way I believe it is that Christians sin just as much as non-Christians, but we do our best to repent for them and show others that God can take those sins and completely take them away from you. Yeah, I know that now, but I'm talking from the perspective of how I was raised and how I perceived these things when I was growing up and being indoctrinated. Ah, I see. Sorry for the rant, lol. Just something I am passionate about. Nowadays Christians have a bad reputation, especially on the internet and the media. I just want to state my way of thinking so people at least know some Christians aren't bigots
Don't get me wrong - even if you "don't hate homosexuals," I still take very personal offense to anyone that considers homosexuality wrong. Opinions like yours, no matter how passive-aggressive and "loving," serve only to increase the pain that kids growing up gay have to go through. You can't just say "I love them anyway" and act like all of the hurtful consequences of your beliefs go away.
I don't mean to derail the topic, but yeah. You may not be as bad as the folks in Uganda, but you are still hurting people in significant ways.
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On May 10 2011 17:21 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Keep out of other countries affairs IMO , let them sort out their own business.
It's pretty easy to argue about whether massive human rights violations by the state is that country's "own business." To me, that sounds like it's everyone's business, especially since the US gives Uganda so much aid.
Either way, didn't you open this thread a couple days ago? Your country tag says Australia, but it's a thread about the US. You had some pretty strong opinions about another country's business then, and the legislation discussed hadn't even been proposed yet (and in all likelihood never will be).
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On May 10 2011 17:28 matjlav wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 17:20 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 17:17 matjlav wrote:On May 10 2011 17:15 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 17:05 matjlav wrote:
Blah. I just don't get homophobia at all. Even when I was under 10 years old and had no idea I might be gay, I was still really bewildered when I found out that Christians were supposed to be against gay people. That may have just been a result of me drawing connections between that situation and the anti-racism education everyone my age received in elementary school, but I just cannot relate to this apparently universal urge to marginalize and hate certain groups of people against all evidence.
Bah, people are dumb, and it seems so hopeless to bother trying to change them. Saying Christians are against gay people is a very vague statement. I am a christian and in my opinion on the homosexual community is that they are sinning, just like I do everyday when I lie, steal, take God's name in vain, and a vast number of things. I do not look down upon homosexuals at all, just like I don't look down on somebody who I see lie. I have gay friends, and they know I oppose their beliefs, but I do not claim they are going to hell, or are a bad person for who am I to judge? In my opinion God will judge us all on our sins and just as he says no sin is greater than another. I try my best to love all people, but when I don't, and I "hate" someone, I feel I have sinned. Sin is something that everybody thinks Christians look upon as if they never see it, or experience it. But Christians that I associate with, and the way I believe it is that Christians sin just as much as non-Christians, but we do our best to repent for them and show others that God can take those sins and completely take them away from you. Yeah, I know that now, but I'm talking from the perspective of how I was raised and how I perceived these things when I was growing up and being indoctrinated. Ah, I see. Sorry for the rant, lol. Just something I am passionate about. Nowadays Christians have a bad reputation, especially on the internet and the media. I just want to state my way of thinking so people at least know some Christians aren't bigots Don't get me wrong - even if you "don't hate homosexuals," I still take very personal offense to anyone that considers homosexuality wrong. Opinions like yours, no matter how passive-aggressive and "loving," serve only to increase the pain that kids growing up gay have to go through. You can't just say "I love them anyway" and act like all of the hurtful consequences of your beliefs go away.
Amen. This passive-aggressive religious stuff is infuriating to the extreme.
"Hey, you're doing things that might send you to my personal hell, but I love you anyways" is sanctimonious. And not in the good way.
Gay rights isn't a question of "wrong, but tolerable". It's right or wrong.
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On May 10 2011 17:21 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Keep out of other countries affairs IMO , let them sort out their own business.
Why would you do that?
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On May 10 2011 17:28 matjlav wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 17:20 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 17:17 matjlav wrote:On May 10 2011 17:15 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 17:05 matjlav wrote:
Blah. I just don't get homophobia at all. Even when I was under 10 years old and had no idea I might be gay, I was still really bewildered when I found out that Christians were supposed to be against gay people. That may have just been a result of me drawing connections between that situation and the anti-racism education everyone my age received in elementary school, but I just cannot relate to this apparently universal urge to marginalize and hate certain groups of people against all evidence.
Bah, people are dumb, and it seems so hopeless to bother trying to change them. Saying Christians are against gay people is a very vague statement. I am a christian and in my opinion on the homosexual community is that they are sinning, just like I do everyday when I lie, steal, take God's name in vain, and a vast number of things. I do not look down upon homosexuals at all, just like I don't look down on somebody who I see lie. I have gay friends, and they know I oppose their beliefs, but I do not claim they are going to hell, or are a bad person for who am I to judge? In my opinion God will judge us all on our sins and just as he says no sin is greater than another. I try my best to love all people, but when I don't, and I "hate" someone, I feel I have sinned. Sin is something that everybody thinks Christians look upon as if they never see it, or experience it. But Christians that I associate with, and the way I believe it is that Christians sin just as much as non-Christians, but we do our best to repent for them and show others that God can take those sins and completely take them away from you. Yeah, I know that now, but I'm talking from the perspective of how I was raised and how I perceived these things when I was growing up and being indoctrinated. Ah, I see. Sorry for the rant, lol. Just something I am passionate about. Nowadays Christians have a bad reputation, especially on the internet and the media. I just want to state my way of thinking so people at least know some Christians aren't bigots Don't get me wrong - even if you "don't hate homosexuals," I still take very personal offense to anyone that considers homosexuality wrong. Opinions like yours, no matter how passive-aggressive and "loving," serve only to increase the pain that kids growing up gay have to go through. You can't just say "I love them anyway" and act like all of the hurtful consequences of your beliefs go away. I don't mean to derail the topic, but yeah. You may not be as bad as the folks in Uganda, but you are still hurting people in significant ways.
And Herein lies our problem. You believe that kids can "grow up gay". While I don't. And what do you expect me to do? Abandon my own beliefs to cater to others? I am as steadfast in my beliefs as you are in yours. In my opinion I am on this earth to share what I know, which I just did. You can take it or leave it, but that is how I feel.
What have I done to hurt these kids, if they do grow up gay as you say? Live my life? I don't walk up to people and insult them for being gay. This argument you have with my beliefs is not with me, but with my religion.
And again, see this from my perspective. If you (in your eyes) had the key to "eternal life", would you not share it?
Edit: "I am not here to make people's lives easier." I took this out, because I reread it and realized that it came off wrong. Didn't mean to say that.
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On May 10 2011 17:37 Halcyondaze wrote:
And Herein lies our problem. You believe that kids can "grow up gay". While I don't. And what do you expect me to do? Abandon my own beliefs to cater to others? I am as steadfast in my beliefs as you are in yours. I am not here to make people's lives easier. In my opinion I am on this earth to share what I know, which I just did. You can take it or leave it, but that is how I feel.
You have the right to your thoughts. But you aren't making a good argument for Christianity for being pro-gay rights...more like the "they'll meet my God later" type of "tolerance"...and acceptance it most certainly isn't.
I do know some Christians that do support gay rights, but they've pretty much completely dumped the Old Testament. I think.
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On May 10 2011 17:16 Inschato wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 17:10 GertHeart wrote:
I openly support gay people o.o; I'm a guy, and straight. It's stupid not to support gay people.
Advantages to supporting gay people.
1.) They date guys, leaving more girls for you.
2.) Having gay friends girls tend to like you more easily knowing you aren't a homophobe.
3.) See rule 1.) and 2.) That's kind of a narrow view of the subject. There are plenty of homosexual females (I'm not talking about the ones in porn)as well, although this thread doesn't seem to touch on that so much especially with that particular youtube video that was linked.
I have no problem with them either, I used to have a lesbian friend who played DDR with me o.o; No problems there either.
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On May 10 2011 17:37 Halcyondaze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 17:28 matjlav wrote:On May 10 2011 17:20 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 17:17 matjlav wrote:On May 10 2011 17:15 Halcyondaze wrote:On May 10 2011 17:05 matjlav wrote:
Blah. I just don't get homophobia at all. Even when I was under 10 years old and had no idea I might be gay, I was still really bewildered when I found out that Christians were supposed to be against gay people. That may have just been a result of me drawing connections between that situation and the anti-racism education everyone my age received in elementary school, but I just cannot relate to this apparently universal urge to marginalize and hate certain groups of people against all evidence.
Bah, people are dumb, and it seems so hopeless to bother trying to change them. Saying Christians are against gay people is a very vague statement. I am a christian and in my opinion on the homosexual community is that they are sinning, just like I do everyday when I lie, steal, take God's name in vain, and a vast number of things. I do not look down upon homosexuals at all, just like I don't look down on somebody who I see lie. I have gay friends, and they know I oppose their beliefs, but I do not claim they are going to hell, or are a bad person for who am I to judge? In my opinion God will judge us all on our sins and just as he says no sin is greater than another. I try my best to love all people, but when I don't, and I "hate" someone, I feel I have sinned. Sin is something that everybody thinks Christians look upon as if they never see it, or experience it. But Christians that I associate with, and the way I believe it is that Christians sin just as much as non-Christians, but we do our best to repent for them and show others that God can take those sins and completely take them away from you. Yeah, I know that now, but I'm talking from the perspective of how I was raised and how I perceived these things when I was growing up and being indoctrinated. Ah, I see. Sorry for the rant, lol. Just something I am passionate about. Nowadays Christians have a bad reputation, especially on the internet and the media. I just want to state my way of thinking so people at least know some Christians aren't bigots Don't get me wrong - even if you "don't hate homosexuals," I still take very personal offense to anyone that considers homosexuality wrong. Opinions like yours, no matter how passive-aggressive and "loving," serve only to increase the pain that kids growing up gay have to go through. You can't just say "I love them anyway" and act like all of the hurtful consequences of your beliefs go away. I don't mean to derail the topic, but yeah. You may not be as bad as the folks in Uganda, but you are still hurting people in significant ways. And Herein lies our problem. You believe that kids can "grow up gay". While I don't. And what do you expect me to do? Abandon my own beliefs to cater to others? I am as steadfast in my beliefs as you are in yours. I am not here to make people's lives easier. In my opinion I am on this earth to share what I know, which I just did. You can take it or leave it, but that is how I feel. What have I done to hurt these kids, if they do grow up gay as you say? Live my life? I don't walk up to people and insult them for being gay. This argument you have with my beliefs is not with me, but with my religion. And again, see this from my perspective. If you (in your eyes) had the key to "eternal life", would you not share it?
Why don't you believe that kids can be born gay? Homosexuality is documented in too many animal species for me to list, you can no longer argue that it's not a natural occurrence. You have no evidence that what you believe is true (other than what you read in some ancient book), but people who believe otherwise do. And what you have done to the kids by subscribing to this religious view is that they are inherently 'evil' and that it's their own fault for being gay (and evil).
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On May 10 2011 17:40 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 17:37 Halcyondaze wrote:
And Herein lies our problem. You believe that kids can "grow up gay". While I don't. And what do you expect me to do? Abandon my own beliefs to cater to others? I am as steadfast in my beliefs as you are in yours. I am not here to make people's lives easier. In my opinion I am on this earth to share what I know, which I just did. You can take it or leave it, but that is how I feel. You aren't making a good argument for Christianity for being pro-gay rights, I think. I do know some Christians that do support gay rights, but they've pretty much completely dumped the Old Testament.
The reasons Christians dump the Old Testament is because in the New Testament, in a general sense, Jesus says to.
Also, I am not trying to make a pro-gay rights argument for Christians. What I am trying to get across is that Christians, or my view of how a Christian should act, should not condone people to hell because that is for God to decide. It seems to me that you are taking what you believe is Christian and applying it to me. I am just trying to show you how I differ from that
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On May 10 2011 17:47 Halcyondaze wrote:
The reasons Christians dump the Old Testament is because in the New Testament, in a general sense, Jesus says to.
Also, I am not trying to make a pro-gay rights argument for Christians. What I am trying to get across is that Christians, or my view of how a Christian should act, should not condone people to hell because that is for God to decide. It seems to me that you are taking what you believe is Christian and applying it to me. I am just trying to show you how I differ from that
Plenty of Christians still follow rather outdated chunks of the Old Testament. So when I say dump, I mean dump. As in, "almost completely ignore".
And that sort of rhetoric goes back to passive-aggressiveness. Saying "this is wrong, but they'll answer to my God later" isn't an argument for anything at all. It's not accepting, it's condescending.
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EPT
