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AutomatonOmega
United States706 Posts
On May 10 2011 12:55 nebulak187 wrote: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Have a great laugh on that (serious) matter  Wow... Thats... Fucked up. Signed the petition. Two-thousand-fucking-eleven. People need to evolve. My favorite part is when he has the kids leave the room after having explained scat activities in graphic detail. | ||
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Halcyondaze
United States509 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:44 BasedSwag wrote: Why don't you believe that kids can be born gay? Homosexuality is documented in too many animal species for me to list, you can no longer argue that it's not a natural occurrence. You have no evidence that what you believe is true (other than what you read in some ancient book), but people who believe otherwise do. And what you have done to the kids by subscribing to this religious view is that they are inherently 'evil' and that it's their own fault for being gay (and evil). The reason I don't believe kids can be born gay is because my end all be all source of information is the faith I have in the Bible. You can call me ignorant, or whatever, but that is what I believe. I also don't believe anyone is inherently evil, but that sin is evil and it affects every one of us. I am not going to get into a debate on whether homosexuality is a natural occurrence or not because that is a black hole of an argument. When you can prove to me how the world began without a supreme being, then you have changed my mind, but until then, this is my opinion. | ||
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Halcyondaze
United States509 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:52 acker wrote: Plenty of Christians still follow rather outdated chunks of the Old Testament. So when I say dump, I mean dump. As in, "almost completely ignore". And that sort of rhetoric goes back to passive-aggressiveness. Saying "this is wrong, but they'll answer to my God later" isn't an argument for anything at all. It's not accepting, it's condescending. God deciding who goes to hell or not is a general statement, not meant for gays or thieves, or murderers, or anyone. It is meant for me, and every other human | ||
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Elzar
Germany204 Posts
When you can prove to me how the world began without a supreme being, then you have changed my mind, but until then, this is my opinion. You cant prove a negative, so this will never happen. /edit Oh and as far as i'm concered, people can believe in whatever the hell they like. You dont think people are born gay? Fine by me. It's not like your believe in people not being born gay will oppress gays in any way. So you can believe in whatever you want, but you can't act in every way you like. | ||
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BasedSwag
Algeria418 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:47 Halcyondaze wrote: The reasons Christians dump the Old Testament is because in the New Testament, in a general sense, Jesus says to. Also, I am not trying to make a pro-gay rights argument for Christians. What I am trying to get across is that Christians, or my view of how a Christian should act, should not condone people to hell because that is for God to decide. It seems to me that you are taking what you believe is Christian and applying it to me. I am just trying to show you how I differ from that So you're saying that Jesus tells people to ignore what God previously had written because it was wrong? That omniscient God wrote something and then decided to change his mind about it? Also, to say that a Christian should not condone people to Hell is incorrect, God himself in the Old Testament literally told people to murder sinners (Samuel 15:2-4), I don't think he really minds if you tell them they're going to Hell, in fact he might be mad at you for not killing them yourself. Jesus himself also condones the killing of a sinners bastard children in the New Testament (Revelation 2:22-23), so even if you completely ignore all of the Old Testament, you still have to deal with that. You say that you "dump the Old Testament" and then say "The reason I don't believe kids can be born gay is because my end all be all source of information is the faith I have in the Bible." Which one is it? You either believe the Bible to be 100% accurate and DO NOT pick & choose what to believe, or you accept that it is not accurate. And if you accept that it is not accurate then you can accept that the parts about homosexuals being immortal sinners is not accurate. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I don't know if I agree with signing this petition - we are not Ugandan, so it's a little odd that we are influencing their domestic policy. On the other hand, it's just so fucked up... But I can't see a situation where this bill doesn't get passed, and in 10 years Ugandan people say "whew, man we were stupid we almost passed that bill, thank god we didn't pass it and we changed out point of view!" Uganda has been pretty bad for a long time... It just needs to be completely changed, something much larger than a bill. | ||
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AutomatonOmega
United States706 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:55 Halcyondaze wrote: When you can prove to me how the world began without a supreme being, then you have changed my mind, but until then, this is my opinion. Since when has a religious zealot ever lent credence to empiricism? | ||
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matjlav
Germany2435 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:37 Halcyondaze wrote: And Herein lies our problem. You believe that kids can "grow up gay". While I don't. And what do you expect me to do? Abandon my own beliefs to cater to others? I am as steadfast in my beliefs as you are in yours. I am not here to make people's lives easier. In my opinion I am on this earth to share what I know, which I just did. You can take it or leave it, but that is how I feel. What have I done to hurt these kids, if they do grow up gay as you say? Live my life? I don't walk up to people and insult them for being gay. This argument you have with my beliefs is not with me, but with my religion. And again, see this from my perspective. If you (in your eyes) had the key to "eternal life", would you not share it? You can justify a whole host of offensive beliefs and actions using religion. Racism, sexism, genocide, you name it. And you know what? The responsibility for those beliefs you hold and the actions you take still ultimately falls on you. If I told you that I don't like interracial marriages because they're against my religion, then would you just say "Oh, he's just trying to help people get into Heaven, so that's cool"? Even if I don't necessarily "hate" those couples? I don't think so. Your beliefs are offensive to me, and I hold you responsible for them, sorry. I'm not urging you to throw away your beliefs to make others happy; I'm urging you to think critically about your beliefs and come to conclusions rather than throwing all of your responsibilities for free thought onto a 2,000 year old book. | ||
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Omnipresent
United States871 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:47 Halcyondaze wrote: The reasons Christians dump the Old Testament is because in the New Testament, in a general sense, Jesus says to. Also, I am not trying to make a pro-gay rights argument for Christians. What I am trying to get across is that Christians, or my view of how a Christian should act, should not condone people to hell because that is for God to decide. It seems to me that you are taking what you believe is Christian and applying it to me. I am just trying to show you how I differ from that This is off topic, but I think I should correct you. Paul says to forget the old testament, not Jesus. And depending on which bits you read from Paul, he also says the exact opposite. I can provide specifics if you want, just send a PM. Either way, most of the anti-gay parts of the bible, and all of the explicitly anti-gay parts, are in the old testament. It's kind of hard to say, "the bible tells me it's a sin, but I'm also going to leave out the Old Testament." The question that's pertinent to this thread is whether it's acceptable to prevent others from engaging in activity that doesn't effect you in any way, even if you think it's bad. I submit that is isn't, and I'd like to hear your case that it is (if you hold that view). As a side not, I'm not a Christian. I've just read their books. | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:55 Halcyondaze wrote: The reason I don't believe kids can be born gay is because my end all be all source of information is the faith I have in the Bible. You can call me ignorant, or whatever, but that is what I believe. I also don't believe anyone is inherently evil, but that sin is evil and it affects every one of us. I am not going to get into a debate on whether homosexuality is a natural occurrence or not because that is a black hole of an argument. It's a black hole if reality doesn't exist. On May 10 2011 17:57 Halcyondaze wrote: God deciding who goes to hell or not is a general statement, not meant for gays or thieves, or murderers, or anyone. It is meant for me, and every other human Non-sequitur. I see nothing about how or why you choose to classify things as sins or not, nor how you can choose to live a life path without judging others. Assuming, of course, your god has laws or rules on this stuff. If it's more of an individual path, then that's a whole other can of worms. | ||
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HULKAMANIA
United States1219 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:31 acker wrote: So one can either agree with you about homosexuality or they are harming children? That sounds to me like an exceptionally poor way to frame the disagreement, one that would be personally offensive to a lot of people. Disapproving of homosexuality in the abstract does not inhere harming homosexual individuals in practice. There is such a thing as treating someone with respect and kindness even if you don't approve of things about them. I would say the capacity to do so is a cornerstone of emotional maturity and frankly a necessity of getting along with anyone for any length of time. | ||
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matjlav
Germany2435 Posts
On May 10 2011 18:06 HULKAMANIA wrote: So one can either agree with you about homosexuality or they are harming children? That sounds to me like an exceptionally poor way to frame the disagreement, one that would be personally offensive to a lot of people. Yup, I say the same things about racism and sexism too! And I don't care if it offends you, or racists, or sexists. On May 10 2011 18:06 HULKAMANIA wrote: Disapproving of homosexuality in the abstract does not inhere harming homosexual individuals in practice. There is such a thing as treating someone with respect and kindness even if you don't approve of things about them. I would say the capacity to do so is a cornerstone of emotional maturity and frankly a necessity of getting along with anyone for any length of time. If you understand that I fundamentally hold heterosexists in any form in the same regard as I hold racists, you will understand my feelings toward them. I don't mean to make it sound like my entire pro-gay argument stems from comparing people to racists, but it is a good way to simplify the justification for my unconditional disdain for anyone that holds anti-gay sentiments of any kind. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4315 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:30 Omnipresent wrote: It's pretty easy to argue about whether massive human rights violations by the state is that country's "own business." To me, that sounds like it's everyone's business, especially since the US gives Uganda so much aid. Either way, didn't you open this thread a couple days ago? Your country tag says Australia, but it's a thread about the US. You had some pretty strong opinions about another country's business then, and the legislation discussed hadn't even been proposed yet (and in all likelihood never will be). OK so what about the USAs use of depleted uranium in Iraq and Afghanistan.Thats a human rights issue.Try sorting out your own affairs before going after others. As for the topic i made thats going off topic a little here but generally police state policy they bring in in the USA or UK they will try to bring into Australia.They are bringing in TSA style radiation naked body scanners to Sydney airport soon for example.They tried to bring in the road pricing by the mile in the UK but there was over 1.5 million signed a petition against it on number10.gov e-petitions site.There is a continuity of agenda between western governments , it's not comparable to compare that to interfering with 3rd world or developing countries affairs. | ||
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SomeONEx
Sweden641 Posts
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HULKAMANIA
United States1219 Posts
On May 10 2011 18:10 matjlav wrote: Yup, I say the same things about racism and sexism too! And I don't care if it offends you, or racists, or sexists. If you understand that I fundamentally hold heterosexists in any form in the same regard as I hold racists, you will understand my feelings toward them. I don't mean to make it sound like my entire pro-gay argument stems from comparing people to racists, but it is a good way to simplify the justification for my unconditional disdain for anyone that holds anti-gay sentiments of any kind. I'll quote myself from earlier this week: On May 08 2011 15:22 HULKAMANIA wrote: I couldn't agree more. It's just a golden rule of internet arguing that if you successfully compare something to Hitler or racism you win the argument. | ||
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kalleralle
Sweden183 Posts
On May 10 2011 14:39 Doorhandle wrote: I have to say Im a little disgusted by the sentiments expressed in this thread. People are acting like you can control whether you are homosexual or not; it's morally wrong to be who you are? But with that aside, this law is absolutely unbelievable, is the UN not stepping in? And on another note to one of the comments above, why is it only Christians that can see that this is wrong? Everyone else has morals too you know, we dont have to be "sensible Christians" to disagree with this. You fail so hard. The reason we accept homosexuality has nothing to do with whether the homosexuals can help it or not. Pedophiles can't help their sexual orientation but that doesn't make pedophelia acceptable does it? No, the reason homosexuality should not be a crime is because it is an act done between free consenting adults that does not harm or infringe on the rights of other people. So we have no right to stop it. Pedophelia on the other hand cannot be consentual(and does harm) so we cannot accept it. Your basis for defending the rights of gays is completely wrong and hurtful to the gay community because it opens up for the pedophelia argument your hear sometimes. | ||
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Halcyondaze
United States509 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:59 BasedSwag wrote: So you're saying that Jesus tells people to ignore what God previously had written because it was wrong? That omniscient God wrote something and then decided to change his mind about it? The 2 verses you quoted. Samuel - that is old testiment and yes that did happen, but that is not Christianity. Christianity = Christ, which is the new testament. Revelation is a book of metaphor, it is not something Christian beliefs stim from. Jesus tells people that he is the way, the New way. The old testament. I am now on my phone because my computer died. I will comment more in the morning. I cannot explain the entirety of the bible and the corolation between new and old testament on my computer, much less my phone. The Bible is something that must be looked upon in it's entirety if it is going to be used in this type of argument because it is a belief issue, not something specific. Also, to say that a Christian should not condone people to Hell is incorrect, God himself in the Old Testament literally told people to murder sinners (Samuel 15:2-4), I don't think he really minds if you tell them they're going to Hell, in fact he might be mad at you for not killing them yourself. Jesus himself also condones the killing of a sinners bastard children in the New Testament (Revelation 2:22-23), so even if you completely ignore all of the Old Testament, you still have to deal with that. You say that you "dump the Old Testament" and then say "The reason I don't believe kids can be born gay is because my end all be all source of information is the faith I have in the Bible." Which one is it? You either believe the Bible to be 100% accurate and DO NOT pick & choose what to believe, or you accept that it is not accurate. And if you accept that it is not accurate then you can accept that the parts about homosexuals being immortal sinners is not accurate. | ||
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SaYyId
Portugal277 Posts
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matjlav
Germany2435 Posts
On May 10 2011 18:14 HULKAMANIA wrote: I'll quote myself from earlier this week: Yes, comparisons to racism are common arguments in internet rhetoric. That doesn't mean they're invalid. I make that comparison because it should be an effective way of getting you to consider the reasons you hold your own beliefs and thus use your beliefs to better understand my own. When you understand why you hold people who are racist in any form in low regard, you will understand why I hold homophobic people in any form in low regard. Why it is that I consider homophobia to be morally on par with racism is another argument, one that I am willing to have, but the racism comparison addresses the issue of "why are you so intolerant of people with different beliefs than you." | ||
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Omnipresent
United States871 Posts
On May 10 2011 18:13 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: OK so what about the USAs use of depleted uranium in Iraq and Afghanistan.Thats a human rights issue.Try sorting out your own affairs before going after others. As for the topic i made thats going off topic a little here but generally police state policy they bring in in the USA or UK they will try to bring into Australia.They are bringing in TSA style radiation naked body scanners to Sydney airport soon for example.They tried to bring in the road pricing by the mile in the UK but there was over 1.5 million signed a petition against it on number10.gov e-petitions site.There is a continuity of agenda between western governments , it's not comparable to compare that to interfering with 3rd world or developing countries affairs. I'm not sure how to argue. You're simultaneously moving the goal post and trying to defend why you're sometimes concerned with the affairs of other countries and sometimes are not. It's not relevant. All I want to know is your position on this issue. Are you saying a law that provides the death penalty for homosexuality is something we shouldn't be concerned about? | ||
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