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Keep it civil guys. Alright I am sick of warning people: Trolling, flame baiting, and derailing will result in insta bans. The same goes for conspiracy theorists and stupidity generally. Confirmation was as follows - On-site DNA test which came back as 99% positive. - photos of face sent to CIA and confirmed with photo analysis - confirmed by 20 year old wife who live in pakistan. This thread is specifically dedicated to the details surrounding the raid/his death. | ||
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mathemagician1986
Germany549 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:02 Angra wrote: If Germany were in the exact situation the US has been in with this, Germany's citizens would react in literally the exact same way. Sorry. Now please stop with all this country superiority bullshit. all right all right, I'll just shut up and let you have a party  | ||
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Awesomeness
Germany1361 Posts
On May 02 2011 18:51 kaileah wrote: This reminds me of Plato's Republic where Plato debates with his students what justice means. Our definitions of justice are completely different. To you, it is not just to torture an individual. For me, it is if that individual has information that can save thousands of lives but refuses to share it. That person is an accessory to said crime and is immediately a participant to said crime. For you, terrorists and mass murderers should be treated the same as someone who gets a misdemeanor. Put them in jail and lock them up. To me, a mass murderer no longer has the right to live. If you put an end to the life of a mass murderer, then you just saved the lives of others who could have become victims. its not hypocrisy but just different perspectives. So you have blind faith in your government to identify the ones who have information "woth torturing for"? It's not like the "trials" against most of them are fair by _anyone's_ standards. I believe that everyone who is accused of a crime should have a fair trial with judges who are not biased. I believe that torture is not acceptable in a democracy. I believe that human rights should be universal, you obviosly don't. So yeah, we do have different perspectives. | ||
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DoXa
Switzerland1448 Posts
On May 02 2011 18:58 ImFromPortugal wrote: Some pics of Americans celebrating: http://static.publico.pt/docs/Mundo/osamabinladen/ that is what probably most europeans see, not the "act of justice". | ||
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Zerokaiser
Canada885 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:05 Awesomeness wrote: I believe that human rights should be universal, you obviosly don't. So yeah, we do have different perspectives. When somebody commits heinous crimes and destroys the lives of thousands, they relinquish their rights as far as I'm concerned. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On May 02 2011 18:54 LedFarmer wrote: I have lost a lot of respect for Europeans after reading some responses in this thread. My brother was murdered, and his killer was never put to justice. I understand that killing the person who killed my brother would not bring him back. However it would make me feel good knowing that the person who took my brothers life was no longer living. My guess is a lot of people here in this thread have never had someone close to them killed, or they would have a different perspective on this issue. Also lots of people are looking at Americans celebrating the death of Osama, actually what is occurring is the celebration of justice, apparently a concept that some people don't understand. Yes because teamliquid posters speak for all Europeans, as stated in the European constitution. Not disagreeing with your point (and I fully understand why people are happy; personnally I am more freaked out than happy), just think the first sentence is a bit ridiculous. | ||
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DoXa
Switzerland1448 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:06 Zerokaiser wrote: When somebody commits heinous crimes and destroys the lives of thousands, they relinquish their rights as far as I'm concerned. Slobodan Milošević was charged with crimes against the humanity too and he wasn't killed on spot. | ||
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nashty.243
Canada9 Posts
On May 02 2011 18:58 FaCE_1 wrote: if you can read french, this article is pretty good to read about the situation. http://tvanouvelles.ca/lcn/infos/lemonde/archives/2011/05/20110502-053856.html meh... That article wasn't all that great but I've got to say I don't want to make an assessment of the situation for another week or so. | ||
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Zerokaiser
Canada885 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:09 DoXa wrote: Slobodan Milošević was charged with crimes against the humanity too and he wasn't killed on spot. Did Slobodan Milošević engage in a firefight alongside heavily armed body guards when he was confronted with arrest? As far as we've been told, Osama was given opportunity to surrender just like Hussein was. | ||
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:06 Zerokaiser wrote: When somebody commits heinous crimes and destroys the lives of thousands, they relinquish their rights as far as I'm concerned. So it's okay to start killing American's in random ? That's pretty crazy, as the poster on the last page said: he believes in peace and justice for all! Considering that they do have some control over their own Defence Force. + Show Spoiler + still not hating, just pointing out flaws in logic! To avoid misunderstandings: What is the real difference when killing civilian in Holy War like terrorists and killing civilians in war against terrorists & for example Saddam's dictatorship? How about all the CIA's secret wars ? Then people talk about justice and taking human rights... | ||
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GambleVII
126 Posts
On May 02 2011 18:54 LedFarmer wrote: I have lost a lot of respect for Europeans after reading some responses in this thread. My brother was murdered, and his killer was never put to justice. I understand that killing the person who killed my brother would not bring him back. However it would make me feel good knowing that the person who took my brothers life was no longer living. My guess is a lot of people here in this thread have never had someone close to them killed, or they would have a different perspective on this issue. Also lots of people are looking at Americans celebrating the death of Osama, actually what is occurring is the celebration of justice, apparently a concept that some people don't understand. I agree with you. If someone killed a loved one and I had the chance to look that person in the eyes and kill him with no legal recourse. I would do that in an instant. Unless you have been there you cant make a statement on the action you would take. But didnt he die in 2001 http://www.welfarestate.com/binladen/funeral/ http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.php I mean its true you havent really heared from him since 2001, and he looks like hes about to die. ESP since the body was "shot in the head" hey look cant verify the looks or dental to ensure its laden. and was buried at sea. So the body can NEVER be seen or examined or anything. | ||
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dormer
United States1314 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:06 Zerokaiser wrote: When somebody commits heinous crimes and destroys the lives of thousands, they relinquish their rights as far as I'm concerned. He wasn't talking about bin Laden, he was talking about prisoners of war being tortured for information and saying that without first determining if they're actually guilty of a crime, it isn't right to just label them a terrorist / "enemy combatant" and torture them because you think they might have something to tell you. | ||
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
@people saying this won't change a thing: If obama was raided and killed would your moral be a bit lower (if you're american)? Ofc it would. Sure another will take this place, but the mere fact your leader was killed is demoralizing. The same goes with Osama.. he was a major leader of al'qaeda and his death will indeed hurt their terrorist organization. | ||
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biggestnoob
35 Posts
On May 02 2011 17:48 FaZe wrote: I would be interested to know what circumstances led him to decide to hate. He didn't its the other way around. He was actually helping the US to overturn established leadership in the middle east, when the US decided they don't need him. He was then sort of put on hold, doing his own thing in Afghan and Pakistan until US needed him to cover up stuff. I mean its not even secret information, official statements and personal have confirmed he is CIA asset and operative. He was also killed 4 years ago, but I guess the announcement is made today in order to help boost support for Obama amid the huge disappointment between the Americans from him. | ||
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DoXa
Switzerland1448 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:10 Zerokaiser wrote: Did Slobodan Milošević engage in a firefight alongside heavily armed body guards when he was confronted with arrest? As far as we've been told, Osama was given opportunity to surrender just like Hussein was. Following a warrant for his arrest by the Yugoslav authorities on charges of corruption and abuse of power, Milošević was forced to surrender to security forces on 31 March 2001 following an armed stand off at his fortified villa in Belgrade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milošević | ||
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Zerokaiser
Canada885 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:11 HwangjaeTerran wrote: So it's okay to start killing American's in random ? That's pretty crazy, as the poster on the last page said: he believes in peace and justice for all! Considering that they do have some control over their own Defence Force. + Show Spoiler + still not hating, just pointing out flaws in logic! What? I don't understand what you mean. Who's 'killing American's in random?" | ||
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partisan
United States783 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:06 DoXa wrote: that is what probably most europeans see, not the "act of justice". What you see are some drunk people, and other people enjoying celebrating. Getting Bin Laden has been the main issue for the American people (note: not american policy) for the last 10 years. You're seeing catharsis on a large scale. | ||
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partisan
United States783 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:09 DoXa wrote: Slobodan Milošević was charged with crimes against the humanity too and he wasn't killed on spot. I'm pretty certain that Milosevic didn't tell everyone around him that he wanted to die fighting Americans and then shoot at the ones trying to arrest him. | ||
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Zerokaiser
Canada885 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:12 DoXa wrote: Following a warrant for his arrest by the Yugoslav authorities on charges of corruption and abuse of power, Milošević was forced to surrender to security forces on 31 March 2001 following an armed stand off at his fortified villa in Belgrade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milošević#Trial An armed stand-off and a live firefight are light years apart. | ||
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Demozerg
Sweden18 Posts
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Fraidnot
United States824 Posts
On May 02 2011 19:05 Awesomeness wrote: So you have blind faith in your government to identify the ones who have information "woth torturing for"? It's not like the "trials" against most of them are fair by _anyone's_ standards. I believe that everyone who is accused of a crime should have a fair trial with judges who are not biased. I believe that torture is not acceptable in a democracy. I believe that human rights should be universal, you obviosly don't. So yeah, we do have different perspectives. So you'd be willing to let millions of people die instead of doing everything you could to prevent it just so you can go to bed at night and sleep easy because you didn't violate your principles? That sounds like a dick move. | ||
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