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Keep it civil guys.
Alright I am sick of warning people: Trolling, flame baiting, and derailing will result in insta bans.
The same goes for conspiracy theorists and stupidity generally.
Confirmation was as follows
- On-site DNA test which came back as 99% positive.
- photos of face sent to CIA and confirmed with photo analysis
- confirmed by 20 year old wife who live in pakistan.
This thread is specifically dedicated to the details surrounding the raid/his death. |
On May 02 2011 19:05 Awesomeness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:51 kaileah wrote:
This reminds me of Plato's Republic where Plato debates with his students what justice means. Our definitions of justice are completely different. To you, it is not just to torture an individual. For me, it is if that individual has information that can save thousands of lives but refuses to share it. That person is an accessory to said crime and is immediately a participant to said crime. For you, terrorists and mass murderers should be treated the same as someone who gets a misdemeanor. Put them in jail and lock them up. To me, a mass murderer no longer has the right to live. If you put an end to the life of a mass murderer, then you just saved the lives of others who could have become victims. its not hypocrisy but just different perspectives. So you have blind faith in your government to identify the ones who have information "woth torturing for"? It's not like the "trials" against most of them are fair by _anyone's_ standards. I believe that everyone who is accused of a crime should have a fair trial with judges who are not biased. I believe that torture is not acceptable in a democracy. I believe that human rights should be universal, you obviosly don't. So yeah, we do have different perspectives.
although a trial with judges and whatnot seems nice, the world is actually an anarchy on the global level. There is no world government or world court or organization. saying everyone should have trials in the midst of war is idealistic.
When it comes to my government, I have to decide whether I think that they're doing the right thing or not most of the time (all of the time is impossible of course). Sometimes, there are times when wrongs do happen. No government is perfect. However, i do beleive that the united states government does what is best for the u.s. citizens more often than not and with that, i have faith that my government will do what is best for us. it is that same faith that binds you with your government and everyone else to theirs.
edit
along the lines of human rights. when you violate the rights of others, you surrender yours as well. terrorists violated the rights of innocent civilians. their rights are gone and whatever happens to them is warranted.
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On May 02 2011 19:06 Zerokaiser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 19:05 Awesomeness wrote:
I believe that human rights should be universal, you obviosly don't. So yeah, we do have different perspectives. When somebody commits heinous crimes and destroys the lives of thousands, they relinquish their rights as far as I'm concerned.
Rights stop being universal, if you can relinquish them. This gives the government the freedom to do whatever they want, saying _everyone_ who is against them has "relinquished" his rights. I think you need to draw a line there, if you consider yourself a democrat and actually believe in the decleration of human rights.
@ kaileah
saying everyone should have trials in the midst of war is idealistic.
Google "The Geneva Conventions"...
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On May 02 2011 19:12 biggestnoob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 17:48 FaZe wrote:On May 02 2011 17:42 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 02 2011 17:36 FaZe wrote:On May 02 2011 17:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 02 2011 17:02 FaZe wrote:On May 02 2011 16:35 travis wrote:"Durrr, you're trolling." Well thought out retort guys. I said nothing that isn't true. If his death brings more peace to the world then that's great but I am not going to celebrate someone's death, let alone the death of someone I didn't know. On May 02 2011 16:35 Angra wrote:On May 02 2011 16:29 diehilde wrote:On May 02 2011 16:26 ryanAnger wrote:
[quote]
You're a fool if you actually feel this way. Sure, he was a man, just like you and me, but that is where the similarities end. He was human, but there was no humanity about him. I celebrate his death because he deserved to die, and that is undeniable. with the same reasoning people in the middle east celebrated the death of the 9/11 victims. I guess the difference is they are wrong and you are right, isnt it? What if the people seen celebrating had family or friends who died in the 9/11 attacks? Shouldn't they be happy then that their family/friends' killer was brought to justice? Or should they just take it with a straight face and show no emotion whatsoever, even though they had personal connections to deaths from a terrorist attack? Maybe you're the one who's being insensitive by telling other people how they should be reacting when they could potentially have a HUGE emotional investment in this whole thing, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, children, loved friends. Ever think about that? Those people would be celebrating in the name of revenge. And while that's common, it's definitely on the undesirable side when it comes to behavior. Anyways, most of these people were not that emotionally invested. He was undeniably evil. But what made him that way? Reflecting on his life, we should mourn for the hate and anger that people inflict on one another that cause these actions. If he was brought up in a 1st world, developed country - I'm sure his life would have gone differently. Instead of striving for understanding and compassion, we cheer the death of our enemies. It's self destructive. If he was brought up in a 1st world developed country? He came from an extremely wealthy family. The man was a mass murderer. He is the one responsible for the 9/11 attacks. I celebrate him being killed. Why? Because he deserved it. Because I know people who lost family in 9/11. They have told be they can sleep just a little bit easier knowing he has been killed. That right there is enough for me to celebrate because those people have gone through hell and they never deserved it. This man brought so much pain to millions of people. Him being killed helps relieve it just a tiny bit. So before you criticize someone for celebrating his death, imagine your brother being killed along with 1000s of others because of this man. Wouldn't you be happy that the man responsible for it all has been brought to justice? He hated who he hated because that's who he was taught to hate. 250,000 Japanese civilians were killed when the US Firebombed Japanese civilian populations. 250,000 innocent people, burned to death. The giving end calls it war, the receiving end calls it terrorism. Osama was a bad man, but in the end killing him means nothing. It's only a change in the current in the ocean of worldly hate. It's the misunderstanding and lack of tolerance that people need to fight. As Che Guavera once said : "Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man". It's not who he was taught to hate, it is who he decided to hate. His sister doesn't hate the people he did and they grew up together. Its not something he was being fed since birth. It was a decision he made. And you cannot compare WWII to what Osama did. Sure killing him doesn't end terrorism, but it certainly does mean something to those who have been effected by his attacks on innocent people. I would be interested to know what circumstances led him to decide to hate. He didn't its the other way around. He was actually helping the US to overturn established leadership in the middle east, when the US decided they don't need him. He was then sort of put on hold, doing his own thing in Afghan and Pakistan until US needed him to cover up stuff. I mean its not even secret information, official statements and personal have confirmed he is CIA asset and operative. He was also killed 4 years ago, but I guess the announcement is made today in order to help boost support for Obama amid the huge disappointment between the Americans from him.
I have no idea where you are getting this nonsense.
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On May 02 2011 19:12 partisan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 19:06 DoXa wrote:that is what probably most europeans see, not the "act of justice". What you see are some drunk people, and other people enjoying celebrating. Getting Bin Laden has been the main issue for the American people (note: not american policy) for the last 10 years. You're seeing catharsis on a large scale.
Do you really think getting Bin Laden has been the main issue for the American people? Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking if that's really, really what you think. I just feel like, if you're right, then that's terribly misguided of us (the american people). There are MUCH more important things than killing Bin Laden. The closure is nice, but of all the issues facing the nation, Bin Laden being alive somewhere in Pakistan wasn't the biggest problem we were facing, I feel.
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Osama was a symbol for terrorism, and killing him has alot more significance then most people seem to understand on TL.
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On May 02 2011 19:16 dormer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 19:12 partisan wrote:On May 02 2011 19:06 DoXa wrote:that is what probably most europeans see, not the "act of justice". What you see are some drunk people, and other people enjoying celebrating. Getting Bin Laden has been the main issue for the American people (note: not american policy) for the last 10 years. You're seeing catharsis on a large scale. Do you really think getting Bin Laden has been the main issue for the American people? Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking if that's really, really what you think. I just feel like, if you're right, then that's terribly misguided of us (the american people). There are MUCH more important things than killing Bin Laden. The closure is nice, but of all the issues facing the nation, Bin Laden being alive somewhere in Pakistan wasn't the biggest problem we were facing, I feel.
I meant in the context of the war on terror. As an American I understand that there are more pressing issues like gas prices or the economy. But we weren't talking about domestic issues so I figured pointing out the obvious wasn't needed.
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On May 02 2011 19:15 Fraidnot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 19:05 Awesomeness wrote:On May 02 2011 18:51 kaileah wrote:
This reminds me of Plato's Republic where Plato debates with his students what justice means. Our definitions of justice are completely different. To you, it is not just to torture an individual. For me, it is if that individual has information that can save thousands of lives but refuses to share it. That person is an accessory to said crime and is immediately a participant to said crime. For you, terrorists and mass murderers should be treated the same as someone who gets a misdemeanor. Put them in jail and lock them up. To me, a mass murderer no longer has the right to live. If you put an end to the life of a mass murderer, then you just saved the lives of others who could have become victims. its not hypocrisy but just different perspectives. So you have blind faith in your government to identify the ones who have information "woth torturing for"? It's not like the "trials" against most of them are fair by _anyone's_ standards. I believe that everyone who is accused of a crime should have a fair trial with judges who are not biased. I believe that torture is not acceptable in a democracy. I believe that human rights should be universal, you obviosly don't. So yeah, we do have different perspectives. So you'd be willing to let millions of people die instead of doing everything you could to prevent it just so you can go to bed at night and sleep easy because you didn't violate your principles? That sounds like a dick move.
So millions would die if you are not allowed to lock up people and torture them without giving them a fair trial. keke
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On May 02 2011 19:15 Fraidnot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 19:05 Awesomeness wrote:On May 02 2011 18:51 kaileah wrote:
This reminds me of Plato's Republic where Plato debates with his students what justice means. Our definitions of justice are completely different. To you, it is not just to torture an individual. For me, it is if that individual has information that can save thousands of lives but refuses to share it. That person is an accessory to said crime and is immediately a participant to said crime. For you, terrorists and mass murderers should be treated the same as someone who gets a misdemeanor. Put them in jail and lock them up. To me, a mass murderer no longer has the right to live. If you put an end to the life of a mass murderer, then you just saved the lives of others who could have become victims. its not hypocrisy but just different perspectives. So you have blind faith in your government to identify the ones who have information "woth torturing for"? It's not like the "trials" against most of them are fair by _anyone's_ standards. I believe that everyone who is accused of a crime should have a fair trial with judges who are not biased. I believe that torture is not acceptable in a democracy. I believe that human rights should be universal, you obviosly don't. So yeah, we do have different perspectives. So you'd be willing to let millions of people die instead of doing everything you could to prevent it just so you can go to bed at night and sleep easy because you didn't violate your principles? That sounds like a dick move.
You are oversimplifying this. It isn't a choice of "let millions of people die" versus "violate principles." It's a question of torturing people that may or may not have committed crimes in order to possibly gain information they may have that might lead to preventing a terrorist attack. It is in no way as clear cut as "do this and you can save people."
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On May 02 2011 19:17 Demozerg wrote:
So you'd be willing to let millions of people die instead of doing everything you could to prevent it just so you can go to bed at night and sleep easy because you didn't violate your principles? That sounds like a dick move.
With that logic we should torture evryone simply cause someone somewhere might do something bad.[/QUOTE]
Not really, with your logic I can say you believe millions should die so one person don't get tortured, as according to your logic it's 100% fine to make up shit people haven't said.
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On May 02 2011 19:16 Awesomeness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 19:06 Zerokaiser wrote:On May 02 2011 19:05 Awesomeness wrote:
I believe that human rights should be universal, you obviosly don't. So yeah, we do have different perspectives. When somebody commits heinous crimes and destroys the lives of thousands, they relinquish their rights as far as I'm concerned. Rights stop being universal, if you can relinquish them. This gives the government the freedom to do whatever they want, saying _everyone_ who is against them has "relinquished" his rights. I think you need to draw a line there, if you consider yourself a democrat and actually believe in the decleration of human rights.
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
We have rights to protect our fellow human beings from being subject to mistreatment, and to give everybody the ability to live their lives freely. Osama Bin Laden had those rights like anybody else. When you make the conscious choice to violate those rights and take away the lives of people, you are no longer free and equal with mankind. That's my personal opinion.
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I'm fucking happy the cocksucker is dead. And actually I'd go so far as to say he got off easy, with what would probably be a fairly quick death. Personally, and I never ever normally support this, I would've liked to see him tortured, tried, and executed by hanging. A bullet was to humane a way to kill that man.
I've seen friends dragged into war and killed because of him. I've seen families and homes broken because of him. At least he's dead. But I just hope he doesn't become a martyr for the cause.
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On May 02 2011 19:11 GambleVII wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:54 LedFarmer wrote:
I have lost a lot of respect for Europeans after reading some responses in this thread.
My brother was murdered, and his killer was never put to justice.
I understand that killing the person who killed my brother would not bring him back.
However it would make me feel good knowing that the person who took my brothers life was no longer living.
My guess is a lot of people here in this thread have never had someone close to them killed, or they would have a different perspective on this issue.
Also lots of people are looking at Americans celebrating the death of Osama, actually what is occurring is the celebration of justice, apparently a concept that some people don't understand. I agree with you. If someone killed a loved one and I had the chance to look that person in the eyes and kill him with no legal recourse. I would do that in an instant. Unless you have been there you cant make a statement on the action you would take. But didnt he die in 2001 http://www.welfarestate.com/binladen/funeral/http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.phpI mean its true you havent really heared from him since 2001, and he looks like hes about to die. ESP since the body was "shot in the head" hey look cant verify the looks or dental to ensure its laden. and was buried at sea. So the body can NEVER be seen or examined or anything.
I'm pretty sure there were tapes (audio) released from Bin laden after 2001 that was confirmed to be him. Could be wrong though, didn't pay that much attention to them.
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Looks like Obama just secured his second term.
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On May 02 2011 19:12 Zerokaiser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 19:11 HwangjaeTerran wrote:On May 02 2011 19:06 Zerokaiser wrote:On May 02 2011 19:05 Awesomeness wrote:
I believe that human rights should be universal, you obviosly don't. So yeah, we do have different perspectives. When somebody commits heinous crimes and destroys the lives of thousands, they relinquish their rights as far as I'm concerned. So it's okay to start killing American's in random ? That's pretty crazy, as the poster on the last page said: he believes in peace and justice for all! Considering that they do have some control over their own Defence Force. + Show Spoiler +still not hating, just pointing out flaws in logic! What? I don't understand what you mean. Who's 'killing American's in random?"
Well, anyone can as you have no rights by your own definition.
I do agree with your logic to some extent but it does have a whole bunch of flaws.
When one man commits heinous crimes, gets caught and loses his human rights, whole democracies do it and hide it all with their "justice" ?
Sounds like it's essential to pick the right side.
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On May 02 2011 19:21 Zerokaiser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 19:16 Awesomeness wrote:On May 02 2011 19:06 Zerokaiser wrote:On May 02 2011 19:05 Awesomeness wrote:
I believe that human rights should be universal, you obviosly don't. So yeah, we do have different perspectives. When somebody commits heinous crimes and destroys the lives of thousands, they relinquish their rights as far as I'm concerned. Rights stop being universal, if you can relinquish them. This gives the government the freedom to do whatever they want, saying _everyone_ who is against them has "relinquished" his rights. I think you need to draw a line there, if you consider yourself a democrat and actually believe in the decleration of human rights. "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood." We have rights to protect our fellow human beings from being subject to mistreatment, and to give everybody the ability to live their lives freely. Osama Bin Laden had those rights like anybody else. When you make the conscious choice to violate those rights and take away the lives of people, you are no longer free and equal with mankind. That's my personal opinion.
Well said. Bin Laden had his until he infringed on the rights of others by eliminating their ability to enjoy those rights. A price must be paid
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I get that people are happy.
I don't get the "celebrations"... Seems retarded to me.
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On May 02 2011 19:22 Sceptor87 wrote:
I'm fucking happy the cocksucker is dead. And actually I'd go so far as to say he got off easy, with what would probably be a fairly quick death. Personally, and I never ever normally support this, I would've liked to see him tortured, tried, and executed by hanging. A bullet was to humane a way to kill that man.
I've seen friends dragged into war and killed because of him. I've seen families and homes broken because of him. At least he's dead. But I just hope he doesn't become a martyr for the cause.
You can be sure he'll be a martyr for islamic extremists
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What changes now that he is dead, besides just knowing that he is dead?
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EPT
