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Keep it civil guys.
Alright I am sick of warning people: Trolling, flame baiting, and derailing will result in insta bans.
The same goes for conspiracy theorists and stupidity generally.
Confirmation was as follows
- On-site DNA test which came back as 99% positive.
- photos of face sent to CIA and confirmed with photo analysis
- confirmed by 20 year old wife who live in pakistan.
This thread is specifically dedicated to the details surrounding the raid/his death. |
On May 02 2011 18:47 Minastir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:31 nihlon wrote:The real (!?!) conspiracy theories will probably say that they captured him alive to keep in some hidden bunker for all eternity.  If I were a conspiracy theorist I'd chase this conspiracy to the end. Disclaimer: Tinfoil hat material + Show Spoiler +
Let's say Bin Laden was an agent working for US government all this time, 9/11 would be an orchestrated op from government and Bin Laden would be the scapegoat. This raid on Bin Laden compound has to be a hoax, nobody has died and this is merely a declaration by US government to Bin Laden that his contract has ended and he can continue living under a new identity with job well done.
omg its as if i wore 10 tinfoil hats at once
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On May 02 2011 18:41 Awesomeness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:24 kaileah wrote:
Those who are in Abu Ghraib are in no way shape or form innocent. The information extracted in Abu Ghraib, whatever means necessary, have saved thousands of innocent lives around the world. Please don't try to make the connection between terrorists and americans / innocent civilians. It's pretty disgusting. Do you honestly believe that all American prisioners in the "war against terror" are actually terrorist? Do you honestly think that the torture in _all cases_ was justified, because they were trying to save innocent Americans? How do you think you have any moral high ground over terrorists/dictators/whoever, if you justify torture? This is exactly the hypocrisy I meant in my post. I don't mind Americans being happy about the death of Bin Laden, I compleatly understand that. But _celebrating_ it, is just inappropriate in my opinion. It's not like you see pictures of people in London or Madrid celebrating right now, even though they would have the same reason to do so.
This reminds me of Plato's Republic where Plato debates with his students what justice means. Our definitions of justice are completely different. To you, it is not just to torture an individual. For me, it is if that individual has information that can save thousands of lives but refuses to share it. That person is an accessory to said crime and is immediately a participant to said crime. For you, terrorists and mass murderers should be treated the same as someone who gets a misdemeanor. Put them in jail and lock them up. To me, a mass murderer no longer has the right to live. If you put an end to the life of a mass murderer, then you just saved the lives of others who could have become victims. its not hypocrisy but just different perspectives.
Edit
also, people in new york, in washington, in usa who have been directly affected by 9/11 will definintely react differently to those in london and madrid. bin laden affected americans differently than europeans. europeans can sympathize but its not the same compared to someone who lost someone in the twin towers in new york.
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On May 02 2011 18:41 LedFarmer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:24 mathemagician1986 wrote:On May 02 2011 18:21 Cloudstrife1337 wrote:
What a great day justice has finally been brought to the tyrant. I can finally say with pride our efforts are finally showing some RESULTS------- I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN I think I'll simply never comprehend the thought process of americans like you. Killing terrorists will never do anything against terrorism. The US should try to understand why terrorists want to do them harm in the first place and try to solve these issues diplomatically, before they even arise. Seeing that I have to be "civil" about this. The fact that you think that Terrorists can be dealt with in a diplomatic way is absurd. I think I'll simply never comprehend the thought process of a doltish German like you. Al Qaeda openly declared war on the United States by having countless attacks against us at home and abroad. You can not negotiate with terrorists, the best place for them is 6 feet under ground, but because you seem pretty torpid, the best place for them is 1.8288 meters under ground.
And what made them declare "war" on the US? They got bored and suddenly decided it would be fun? I agree that extremsists cannot be negotiated with, but being proud of killing one man is simply stupid (apart from very uncivilised) as it changes absolutely nothing. You can call be torpid as many times as you like, but as long as the US doesn't deal with the reasons of why terrorism emerged in the first place they won't win their so called war against terrorism.
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I have lost a lot of respect for Europeans after reading some responses in this thread.
My brother was murdered, and his killer was never put to justice.
I understand that killing the person who killed my brother would not bring him back.
However it would make me feel good knowing that the person who took my brothers life was no longer living.
My guess is a lot of people here in this thread have never had someone close to them killed, or they would have a different perspective on this issue.
Also lots of people are looking at Americans celebrating the death of Osama, actually what is occurring is the celebration of justice, apparently a concept that some people don't understand.
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On May 02 2011 18:54 LedFarmer wrote:
I have lost a lot of respect for Europeans after reading some responses in this thread.
My brother was murdered, and his killer was never put to justice.
I understand that killing the person who killed my brother would not bring him back.
However it would make me feel good knowing that the person who took my brothers life was no longer living.
My guess is a lot of people here in this thread have never had someone close to them killed, or they would have a different perspective on this issue.
Also lots of people are looking at Americans celebrating the death of Osama, actually what is occurring is the celebration of justice, apparently a concept that some people don't understand.
Execution isn't justice. But I understand that the US has a different viewpoint on this matter.
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A simple point to consider for all the doubters - if they're lying about his death, one video from OBL would make the US government look extremely stupid.
Concerning the burial at sea, why would you want to hang on to the body? The faster you get rid of it, the less chance there is of it becoming a pilgrimage site. They disposed of it quickly and correctly in accordance with Islamic Law (I asked one of my muslim friends - this is apparently true, the faster the burial the better) so that the Muslim world cannot take offence at how they dealt with his remains. Another explanation a friend of mine has come up with is that the soldiers who recovered the body might have desecrated the remains (hell, there's videos of troops abusing living, normal taliban troops, I can imagine the emotions at finding the body of the man who orchestrated the attack on the twin towers to be even stronger) and thus they needed to dispose of the body before pictures could be taken. A bit morbid, but entirely possible I guess.
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On May 02 2011 18:53 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:41 LedFarmer wrote:On May 02 2011 18:24 mathemagician1986 wrote:On May 02 2011 18:21 Cloudstrife1337 wrote:
What a great day justice has finally been brought to the tyrant. I can finally say with pride our efforts are finally showing some RESULTS------- I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN I think I'll simply never comprehend the thought process of americans like you. Killing terrorists will never do anything against terrorism. The US should try to understand why terrorists want to do them harm in the first place and try to solve these issues diplomatically, before they even arise. Seeing that I have to be "civil" about this. The fact that you think that Terrorists can be dealt with in a diplomatic way is absurd. I think I'll simply never comprehend the thought process of a doltish German like you. Al Qaeda openly declared war on the United States by having countless attacks against us at home and abroad. You can not negotiate with terrorists, the best place for them is 6 feet under ground, but because you seem pretty torpid, the best place for them is 1.8288 meters under ground. And what made them declare "war" on the US? They got bored and suddenly decided it would be fun? I agree that extremsists cannot be negotiated with, but being proud of killing one man is simply stupid (apart from very uncivilised) as it changes absolutely nothing. You can call be torpid as many times as you like, but as long as the US doesn't deal with the reasons of why terrorism emerged in the first place they won't win their so called war against terrorism.
So what are we suppose to nuke Israel or just sit back while they attack our allies? Sounds like a brilliant strategy! (that's sarcastic btw)
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On May 02 2011 18:53 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:41 LedFarmer wrote:On May 02 2011 18:24 mathemagician1986 wrote:On May 02 2011 18:21 Cloudstrife1337 wrote:
What a great day justice has finally been brought to the tyrant. I can finally say with pride our efforts are finally showing some RESULTS------- I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN I think I'll simply never comprehend the thought process of americans like you. Killing terrorists will never do anything against terrorism. The US should try to understand why terrorists want to do them harm in the first place and try to solve these issues diplomatically, before they even arise. Seeing that I have to be "civil" about this. The fact that you think that Terrorists can be dealt with in a diplomatic way is absurd. I think I'll simply never comprehend the thought process of a doltish German like you. Al Qaeda openly declared war on the United States by having countless attacks against us at home and abroad. You can not negotiate with terrorists, the best place for them is 6 feet under ground, but because you seem pretty torpid, the best place for them is 1.8288 meters under ground. And what made them declare "war" on the US? They got bored and suddenly decided it would be fun? I agree that extremsists cannot be negotiated with, but being proud of killing one man is simply stupid (apart from very uncivilised) as it changes absolutely nothing. You can call be torpid as many times as you like, but as long as the US doesn't deal with the reasons of why terrorism emerged in the first place they won't win their so called war against terrorism.
Usama declared war on the United States for stepping foot on Saudi Arabian soil to protect the country during the gulf war. He subscribes to a version of Islamic law that almost no one else follows in that he believes the entire Arabian peninsula is off limit to non Muslims. The idea that christian women were in his country was too much.
That sound like a reasonable response to you? The Saudi ruling family asked for assistance in defending their country and one of their private citizens goes off the deep end.
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On May 02 2011 18:51 kaileah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:41 Awesomeness wrote:On May 02 2011 18:24 kaileah wrote:
Those who are in Abu Ghraib are in no way shape or form innocent. The information extracted in Abu Ghraib, whatever means necessary, have saved thousands of innocent lives around the world. Please don't try to make the connection between terrorists and americans / innocent civilians. It's pretty disgusting. Do you honestly believe that all American prisioners in the "war against terror" are actually terrorist? Do you honestly think that the torture in _all cases_ was justified, because they were trying to save innocent Americans? How do you think you have any moral high ground over terrorists/dictators/whoever, if you justify torture? This is exactly the hypocrisy I meant in my post. I don't mind Americans being happy about the death of Bin Laden, I compleatly understand that. But _celebrating_ it, is just inappropriate in my opinion. It's not like you see pictures of people in London or Madrid celebrating right now, even though they would have the same reason to do so. This reminds me of Plato's Republic where Plato debates with his students what justice means. Our definitions of justice are completely different. To you, it is not just to torture an individual. For me, it is if that individual has information that can save thousands of lives but refuses to share it. That person is an accessory to said crime and is immediately a participant to said crime. For you, terrorists and mass murderers should be treated the same as someone who gets a misdemeanor. Put them in jail and lock them up. To me, a mass murderer no longer has the right to live. If you put an end to the life of a mass murderer, then you just saved the lives of others who could have become victims. its not hypocrisy but just different perspectives. Edit also, people in new york, in washington, in usa who have been directly affected by 9/11 will definintely react differently to those in london and madrid. bin laden affected americans differently than europeans. europeans can sympathize but its not the same compared to someone who lost someone in the twin towers in new york.
Hile I understand your reasoning and see the point you make, the problem is that you are talking about ideal situations. The sad truth is that you often do not know whether a person is really a terrorist and how much he knows. The wikileaks on Guantanamo are painfully accurate in descrobing how many innocent people were caught up in it and how fallible the interrogation results were. In this light, the real question a state under the rule of law has to face is how much of your own principles you are willing to sacrifice to ensure your political aims.
The great risk is that by fighting "them" on their terms you become "them" which is, in my opinion, a main source for criticism of the US foreign and security policy.
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On May 02 2011 18:58 partisan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:53 mathemagician1986 wrote:On May 02 2011 18:41 LedFarmer wrote:On May 02 2011 18:24 mathemagician1986 wrote:On May 02 2011 18:21 Cloudstrife1337 wrote:
What a great day justice has finally been brought to the tyrant. I can finally say with pride our efforts are finally showing some RESULTS------- I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN I think I'll simply never comprehend the thought process of americans like you. Killing terrorists will never do anything against terrorism. The US should try to understand why terrorists want to do them harm in the first place and try to solve these issues diplomatically, before they even arise. Seeing that I have to be "civil" about this. The fact that you think that Terrorists can be dealt with in a diplomatic way is absurd. I think I'll simply never comprehend the thought process of a doltish German like you. Al Qaeda openly declared war on the United States by having countless attacks against us at home and abroad. You can not negotiate with terrorists, the best place for them is 6 feet under ground, but because you seem pretty torpid, the best place for them is 1.8288 meters under ground. And what made them declare "war" on the US? They got bored and suddenly decided it would be fun? I agree that extremsists cannot be negotiated with, but being proud of killing one man is simply stupid (apart from very uncivilised) as it changes absolutely nothing. You can call be torpid as many times as you like, but as long as the US doesn't deal with the reasons of why terrorism emerged in the first place they won't win their so called war against terrorism. Usama declared war on the United States for stepping foot on Saudi Arabian soil to protect the country during the gulf war. He subscribes to a version of Islamic law that almost no one else follows in that he believes the entire Arabian peninsula is off limit to non Muslims. The idea that christian women were in his country was too much. That sound like a reasonable response to you? The Saudi ruling family asked for assistance in defending their country and one of their private citizens goes off the deep end.
the saudis are terrorist supporters themselves
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On May 02 2011 18:54 LedFarmer wrote:
I have lost a lot of respect for Europeans after reading some responses in this thread.
My brother was murdered, and his killer was never put to justice.
I understand that killing the person who killed my brother would not bring him back.
However it would make me feel good knowing that the person who took my brothers life was no longer living.
My guess is a lot of people here in this thread have never had someone close to them killed, or they would have a different perspective on this issue.
Also lots of people are looking at Americans celebrating the death of Osama, actually what is occurring is the celebration of justice, apparently a concept that some people don't understand.
Indeed noone close to me has been killed. Very rarely are people killed here at all and when they are we don't go an eye for an eye. However much I would personally like revenge, it just isn't how it works.
That said I myself condone the targetted killing of Osama. I'm only surprised that it took so long.
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On May 02 2011 18:56 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:54 LedFarmer wrote:
I have lost a lot of respect for Europeans after reading some responses in this thread.
My brother was murdered, and his killer was never put to justice.
I understand that killing the person who killed my brother would not bring him back.
However it would make me feel good knowing that the person who took my brothers life was no longer living.
My guess is a lot of people here in this thread have never had someone close to them killed, or they would have a different perspective on this issue.
Also lots of people are looking at Americans celebrating the death of Osama, actually what is occurring is the celebration of justice, apparently a concept that some people don't understand. Execution isn't justice. But I understand that the US has a different viewpoint on this matter.
There is no Justice in this world. What happened was that USA and probably some other people wanted him dead and they got him dead, whether or not it's better this way depends on who you ask.
It's not like this war on terrorism is a one way war, I'm 100% the other side thinks their actions are justified too. Winners write the history & for us westeners and I guess it's better for us all this way, even though we will never know much about what happened.
On May 01 2011 23:19 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
I'm starting to think this is some sort of well organized show by the owners of the USA to turn the people's eyes from something of actual importance that's going on.
They always do something like this to spin even the incorruptible media.
And this is not USA hate, they do it everywhere.
I wonder if this is it then :I
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On May 02 2011 18:56 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:54 LedFarmer wrote:
I have lost a lot of respect for Europeans after reading some responses in this thread.
My brother was murdered, and his killer was never put to justice.
I understand that killing the person who killed my brother would not bring him back.
However it would make me feel good knowing that the person who took my brothers life was no longer living.
My guess is a lot of people here in this thread have never had someone close to them killed, or they would have a different perspective on this issue.
Also lots of people are looking at Americans celebrating the death of Osama, actually what is occurring is the celebration of justice, apparently a concept that some people don't understand. Execution isn't justice. But I understand that the US has a different viewpoint on this matter.
Justice is a subjective concept. Your justice will never be mine, so the condescension is unwarranted.
The man has committed unspeakable crimes against humanity and wanted to die. I have no problem with this result
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On May 02 2011 17:19 Lemonwalrus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 17:17 Aurocaido wrote:On May 02 2011 17:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 02 2011 17:02 FaZe wrote:On May 02 2011 16:35 travis wrote:"Durrr, you're trolling." Well thought out retort guys. I said nothing that isn't true. If his death brings more peace to the world then that's great but I am not going to celebrate someone's death, let alone the death of someone I didn't know. On May 02 2011 16:35 Angra wrote:On May 02 2011 16:29 diehilde wrote:On May 02 2011 16:26 ryanAnger wrote:On May 02 2011 16:22 travis wrote:On May 02 2011 16:08 ryanAnger wrote:
[quote]
If Australia were put into the exact circumstances that the US is currently, the reaction would be exactly the same.
We aren't monsters for celebrating the death of a monster. ppl are monsters for celebrating any man's death, if that's what they are actually celebrating he was born a child, he had a mother and father and hopes and dreams. he had challenges and successes and love and fear and hate. that's reality. he was just a man like you or me and now he is dead. You're a fool if you actually feel this way. Sure, he was a man, just like you and me, but that is where the similarities end. He was human, but there was no humanity about him. I celebrate his death because he deserved to die, and that is undeniable. with the same reasoning people in the middle east celebrated the death of the 9/11 victims. I guess the difference is they are wrong and you are right, isnt it? What if the people seen celebrating had family or friends who died in the 9/11 attacks? Shouldn't they be happy then that their family/friends' killer was brought to justice? Or should they just take it with a straight face and show no emotion whatsoever, even though they had personal connections to deaths from a terrorist attack? Maybe you're the one who's being insensitive by telling other people how they should be reacting when they could potentially have a HUGE emotional investment in this whole thing, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, children, loved friends. Ever think about that? Those people would be celebrating in the name of revenge. And while that's common, it's definitely on the undesirable side when it comes to behavior. Anyways, most of these people were not that emotionally invested. He was undeniably evil. But what made him that way? Reflecting on his life, we should mourn for the hate and anger that people inflict on one another that cause these actions. If he was brought up in a 1st world, developed country - I'm sure his life would have gone differently. Instead of striving for understanding and compassion, we cheer the death of our enemies. It's self destructive. If he was brought up in a 1st world developed country? He came from an extremely wealthy family. The man was a mass murderer. He is the one responsible for the 9/11 attacks. I celebrate him being killed. Why? Because he deserved it. Because I know people who lost family in 9/11. They have told be they can sleep just a little bit easier knowing he has been killed. That right there is enough for me to celebrate because those people have gone through hell and they never deserved it. This man brought so much pain to millions of people. Him being killed helps relieve it just a tiny bit. So before you criticize someone for celebrating his death, imagine your brother being killed along with 1000s of others because of this man. Wouldn't you be happy that the man responsible for it all has been brought to justice? Killing Bin Laden would not bring my brother back to life. Nothing would change and I would not feel joy. Then you are different from most people, in that most people have a sense of closure and happiness when the murderer of their loved ones is brought to justice. Get off your high horse.
he killed my mom aswell and now i feel justice has been done . feel free now like me the murder is dead the one guy who did this ..... is gone forever
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On May 02 2011 18:56 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:54 LedFarmer wrote:
I have lost a lot of respect for Europeans after reading some responses in this thread.
My brother was murdered, and his killer was never put to justice.
I understand that killing the person who killed my brother would not bring him back.
However it would make me feel good knowing that the person who took my brothers life was no longer living.
My guess is a lot of people here in this thread have never had someone close to them killed, or they would have a different perspective on this issue.
Also lots of people are looking at Americans celebrating the death of Osama, actually what is occurring is the celebration of justice, apparently a concept that some people don't understand. Execution isn't justice. But I understand that the US has a different viewpoint on this matter.
If Germany were in the exact situation the US has been in with this, Germany's citizens would react in literally the exact same way. Sorry. Now please stop with all this country superiority bullshit.
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On May 02 2011 18:54 LedFarmer wrote:
I have lost a lot of respect for Europeans after reading some responses in this thread.
My brother was murdered, and his killer was never put to justice.
I understand that killing the person who killed my brother would not bring him back.
However it would make me feel good knowing that the person who took my brothers life was no longer living.
My guess is a lot of people here in this thread have never had someone close to them killed, or they would have a different perspective on this issue.
Also lots of people are looking at Americans celebrating the death of Osama, actually what is occurring is the celebration of justice, apparently a concept that some people don't understand.
I feel very sorry for you and your family.
I think that a lot of europeans see the celebrations as a result of vengeance and not justice.
True or not, listening on the repys from americans that I see on television, maybe they should also think about all the inocent that had to die for this cause.
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On May 02 2011 18:57 Robellicose wrote:
A simple point to consider for all the doubters - if they're lying about his death, one video from OBL would make the US government look extremely stupid.
Concerning the burial at sea, why would you want to hang on to the body? The faster you get rid of it, the less chance there is of it becoming a pilgrimage site. They disposed of it quickly and correctly in accordance with Islamic Law (I asked one of my muslim friends - this is apparently true, the faster the burial the better) so that the Muslim world cannot take offence at how they dealt with his remains. Another explanation a friend of mine has come up with is that the soldiers who recovered the body might have desecrated the remains (hell, there's videos of troops abusing living, normal taliban troops, I can imagine the emotions at finding the body of the man who orchestrated the attack on the twin towers to be even stronger) and thus they needed to dispose of the body before pictures could be taken. A bit morbid, but entirely possible I guess.
to answer your question. Evidence, DERRRP
get rid of it after it's been confirmed by multiple sources third parties, private parties, whatever. avoiding an anti-american shrine is understandable, but not good reason to scrap the body so quickly. Islamic law, please.
do you really think that we respect the religious obligations of terrorists, especially bin laden?
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On May 02 2011 18:24 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:21 Cloudstrife1337 wrote:
What a great day justice has finally been brought to the tyrant. I can finally say with pride our efforts are finally showing some RESULTS------- I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN I think I'll simply never comprehend the thought process of americans like you. Killing terrorists will never do anything against terrorism. The US should try to understand why terrorists want to do them harm in the first place and try to solve these issues diplomatically, before they even arise.
I don't expect you to try and understand, its somewhat difficult considering how far we live from each other and our cultural differences.... Maybe its as simple as... if you experienced what I have... than you could put yourself in my shoes. I bet you have endured hardships in your life, however I probably won't be able to understand them because I was not there with you. I bet you and I are not as different as you would think.
I live in New York and I live within miles of where the World Trade Center was attacked by terrorists. I witnessed the bloodshed and innocent people dieing and their families affected. I witnessed the turmoil it cost New York City and stress on people throughout New York and the U.S.A, wondering if their loved ones were killed or not. Osama Bin Laden was behind the attacks of 9/11 that day that killed innocent people due to his radical beliefs of war and bloodshed. I am just glad that a tyrant like that was killed and is no longer on this Earth to cause any more damage; I believe in peace and justice for all.
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EPT
